Lukewarm believers and faith

[RandyK]

Amen! Notice our Lord's concern (Matthew 25;:31-46). Now these works do not save but the saved eventually become concerned with these things. They become conformed to His image having the same Spirit within (Romans 8:9). This is our appropriate self sacrifice (ISAIAH 58:6-12; Romans 12:1-2).

Well, you quoted some that just isn't true. You quoted where it was denied that Jesus knows our "faith."

Rev 2.

Amen! Notice our Lord's concern (Matthew 25;:31-46). Now these works do not save but the saved eventually become concerned with these things. They become conformed to His image having the same Spirit within (Romans 8:9). This is our appropriate self sacrifice (ISAIAH 58:6-12; Romans 12:1-2).

Be careful what you're saying "Amen" to! It was said that Jesus did not say he knows our "faith." But he actually did!

Rev 2.19 I know your deeds, your love and faith.
True biblical faith includes the works of faith. One cannot have faith without producing works.

James 2.18 Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

The basic idea behind biblical faith is the need to begin with faith so that whatever we do we do in accordance with God's word to our heart. Otherwise, we are doing thing on our own for our own glory for our own merit. And the only merit that we can legitimately own are things done in conjunction with God's word.

 

[Free]

And, no believer also needs to believe your or anyone else's personal teaching of His death and work on the cross, in order to be saved by faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Believing in Jesus's death on the cross and the work that he did there as necessary for salvation is not my "personal teaching," it is the teaching of Scripture. If a person only has to believe that he was raised again, it could be that he was just one of three criminals executed and that God decided to raise him from the dead. He could have been just another sinful human whose death would have been meaningless for redeeming us from sin.

That is a doctrinal proselitization to one's own personal faith, akin to proselytizing by works.

Not at all.

No man must believe in Jesus Christ's resurrection and be circumcised, else ye cannot be saved.

Obviously.

No man must believe Jesus Christ's resurrection and His work on the cross, else ye cannot be saved.

This is flat out heresy, a denial of the gospel. I've given several passages which makes this clear, but here are more:

Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. (ESV)

Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (ESV)

Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. (ESV)

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (ESV)

Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. (ESV)

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. (ESV)

Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood (ESV)

You are pitting the cross against the resurrection, which is a serious error and offense to Christ by making his work on the cross meaningless. It isn't either/or, it's both/and. His resurrection was meaningful because his work on the cross was meaningful.

No doctrine nor work must be added to anyone's faith in the resurrected Jesus confessing Him Lord, else he cannot be saved.

Then you do not understand the gospel.

That makes having the faith of our resurrected Lord of none effect to save the soul, until a certain doctrine is also believed, or a certain work is also done.

His resurrection, divorced from his atoning work on the cross, as you are teaching, makes his resurrection meaningless, as I pointed out above.

We are only saved by faith in Jesus Christ's resurrection confessing Him Lord, not by faith in His death alone, nor by any teaching on His death at the cross.

I have never once said "by faith in his death alone."

 

[RBDERRICK]

You are misinterpreting this doctrine by citing only the way False Christians apply it, as an excuse for their wayward Works.

Then I am interpreting it just as they say it and practice it.

But true Christians apply it to show the necessity of dependence upon Christ for everything, for Salvation, as well as for Works.

I don't. I never preach any kind of faith alone, except being dead.

Jas 2:20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

I only preach Scripture.

John 15.4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

This verse is teaching Justification by Faith Alone.

No Scripture teaches justification by faith alone. Scripture teaches against having any faith alone.

Stop using the false version of this doctrine.

Stop teaching faith alone from your own mind, and I'll stop rebuking it by Scripture.

Faith is trusting in him.

This is better. See how easy it is not to include Alone, when speaking of having faith in Jesus Christ?

Faith is trusting in him.

Heb{11:1} Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith toward God is trusting in Him and doing His will. There is never one without the other, such as having faith alone apart from works.

We repent by choosing to trust in him instead of in ourselves alone.

Heb {6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

We repent from dead works to recieve faith toward God.

Any preaching of repentance apart from works, is preaching only a change of mind, that does not justify the hearer.

Rom 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
It's not by mistake, that people preaching justification by a Faith Alone, apart from works, also preach a repentance apart from works.

Isa 55:7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Eze 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

God's granted repentance unto life in Christ Jesus, is from all our own vain imaginations and unrighteous deeds.

Without repentance from all our own dead works, then any faith, imputed righteousness, salvation, and justification we believe we have, is only of ourselves alone, not from Jesus Christ.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

No unrighteous person, that does not repent from their unrighteousness, has any gift of faith toward God from Jesus Christ for His salvation from sins and justification from dead works.

 

[RandyK]

Then I am interpreting it just as they say it and practice it.
I don't. I never preach any kind of faith alone, except being dead.
I only preach Scripture.

What you've just said is the opposite of this! You've just said you interpret what Scripture says only the way adversaries of Scripture do, that Christian Works are dead.

True Christians interpret "Faith" as our link to Christ so that our Works are done *in Christ.* But you want to only speak of "dead Works," which are what false Christians practice. Why are you choosing to represent the Dark Side, and not true Christianity?

No Scripture teaches justification by faith alone. Scripture teaches against having any faith alone.

You are representing only the Dark Side's view of "Faith Alone." True Christianity sees "Faith Alone" as our essential link to Christ, which includes how we live and the works we do. You want to ignore this, hide it, and obstruct it, apparently?

Stop teaching faith alone from your own mind, and I'll stop rebuking it by Scripture.

I'm supposed to be speaking from somebody else's mind? We are to have the mind of Christ--us, and not somebody else. *We,* ie our mind, is to align with the mind of Christ. We do that by *faith!*

This is better. See how easy it is not to include Alone, when speaking of having faith in Jesus Christ?

Faith Alone is an emphasis placed on it for Scriptural reasons. Paul eliminated self-effort, or independent works. So, "Faith Alone" is perfectly Scriptural. Faith Alone, as opposed to faith in yourself.

You look at this only from the view of false Christians, from the Dark Side. Faith Alone does not mean Faith that lacks righteousness. Rather, the whole reason for Faith Alone was to emphasize true Faith that is centered on Christ. Faith Alone, as opposed to Self-Effort, or any effort apart from the object of our Faith, which is Christ.

But you don't want to look at that. You only want to see the Dark Side of this, by your own words.

 

[RBDERRICK]

John 15.4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

This verse is teaching Justification by Faith Alone.

It's rebuking having faith alone in Jesus Christ, apart from works we are doing.

1Jo 2:3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 2:6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jo 3:5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Remaining in Christ Jesus is never by faith alone, but only by faithfully doing His word of truth.

Every Scripture must be read in context of all Scripture. Without repentance from dead works, there is no gift of faith from Jesus Christ unto salvation. Nor without doing His word, is there any remaining in Jesus Christ by faith alone.

Jesus rejects hearers only as dead branches, who have no faith in Him when doing dead works.

 

[RandyK]

It's rebuking having faith alone in Jesus Christ, apart from works we are doing.

Your whole schtick seems to be to denounce those who have properly used "Faith Alone" as an emphasis upon our need to direct our faith in Christ alone. You've turned it into a "Dark Side" version in which false Christians want to have faith without works.

What is the opposite of true Faith? It is doing things without Faith. But you completely mischaracterize this, and falsely accuse Faith Alone as an effort to exclude righteousness.

Nobody who believes in Christ excludes righteousness! You completely distort the truth of Faith Alone here. You are centering only on how evil people might want to rationalize Hedonism, libertinism.

You are focused only on antinomians, who want to use Grace as an excuse for sin, when that is not at all what Faith Alone was ever about!

Jesus rejects hearers only as dead branches, who have no faith in Him when doing dead works.

Faith Alone is based on True Faith that abides in the vine. You are focused on the "dead branches," apparently to mischaracterize true Christianity. You've already said that it was your intention to look at the wrong side of Faith Alone.

Maybe you just want to look at the external words, "faith alone," and then draw the conclusion that that is bad theology? That is surface level judgment--something Jesus warned us not to do.

Do *not* judge by appearances. Do not slander your brothers and sisters. That is what the Bible teaches us. So when we speak of "Faith Alone" we need to present what it really teaches--not some surface level condemnation.

I will say it again, though you're on record as wanting to ignore it. Others should know it. Faith Alone proscribes the use of Works without Faith as the equation for living right before God. It is not Faith that excludes Righteousness. Shame on you for focusing on that!

 

[RBDERRICK]

One obtains Salvation when one obtains Christ. The way to obtain Christ is to repent of going one's own way in order to live only for Christ. That is "Faith Alone," as opposed to trusting in yourself alone.

Repentance means that we choose to live for Christ, including all of our Works. So repentance involves turning from our independent works to works that are inspired by the love and Spirit of Christ, which becomes ours when we make him our Lord.

Other than preaching dead faith alone, and making Jesus our Lord, I agree.

Dead works include any work done, that is without the faith of Jesus Christ from a pure heart.

Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

To recieve His faith and be sprinkled by His blood, we must repent from doing our own works from a corrupt heart of lust.

Heb 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

[RandyK]

Other than preaching dead faith alone, and making Jesus our Lord, I agree.

If you really agreed, then you would recognize that preaching "Faith Alone" is precisely what you're agreeing on! You errantly define "Faith Alone" as an effort to exclude Good Works that are done in Christ. If we are to do good works, shouldn't they be done by "Faith Alone?" Or, are you advocating for good works that are done apart from faith in Christ?

That is what Faith Alone is really focusing on, which is the need to avoid living apart from Faith. We live by Faith alone, or don't you get that?

Everything we read in the Faith Chapter of Hebrews 11 is advocating for Faith Alone! You just want to focus on the abuse of this apparently?

And that would be fine, if you didn't mischaracterize what Faith Alone was really meant to advocate for. It was *not* to advocate for Faith without Works. Rather, it was advocating for Faith without *Independent Works,* or Works separated from Christ.

 

[RBDERRICK]

John 1.1 tells us nothing about predestination of what or who.

Of course not, which is why I give other Scriptures with John 1:1, to prove the teaching.

John 1:1 reveals the mystery of the Godhead, that there was God the Word with God in the beginning of creation.

Other Scriptures reveal that God watches all things come to pass from on high.

God the Word was with God in the beginning, and God the Word watches all things present today. Therefore, God knew all things to come to pass from the beginning, by God the Word watching all things come to pass yesterday, today, and tomorrow; Not by predetermining all things that angels and men will do.

It's called giving the sense of Scriptures taken together. We don't learn all things of God and His Word from one verse alone.

Other things God has predetermined must happen. There are many things God has predetermined must take place, apart from the coming of Christ.

Correct. If man sins on earth, like the angels that sinned in heaven, then the Lamb of God must come in the flesh, die for our sins, and be raised again for our justification.

Men that sin must repent to receive the Lamb of God and His sprinkling of blood, for atonement from sins and trespasses.

The only Person in the beginning predetermined what to do, is Jesus Christ the Word and Lamb of God.

All other persons coming into the world have liberty from God, to determine what they will do with the gift of being created in His own image.

Word play? If God preknows something, then it has been predetermined.

You can choose to reject the teaching from Scriptures given, but without correcting anything in it, then it's just your personal choice not to believe it.

Which doesn't matter to me. I'm not interested in converting anyone to what I teach, but only in knowing the true teaching of Scripture. Without any correction, I keep what I have so far. If well corrected by showing error in it, then the teaching is made better and more sure.

I'll not try to oversimplify this subject. It's difficult. But I don't believe you've proven anything either way here.

Not to me. I perfectly understand it.

A hallmark of justifying rejection of something, that may indeed be true, is to pronounce the matter as being too complicated, rather than just agree with it, or correct it.

We may have some partial agreement, but I'm not really sure how far our agreement goes?

You can begin by showing any error in what I've now taught twice to you. If not, then it doesn't matter to me if you agree or not. I'll simply believe the argument, thus far, has no flaws in it.

The reason I don't take these things personal, like others do, is because I'm only interested in the accurate teaching of Scripture. I don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees with me personally, but only if what I am teaching is proper from the words of the Lord.

I don't believe God has predestined Sin or the Lost. But He has in fact predestined human success in some measure. God's Word cannot fail, but it can allow freedom that must be remedied.

Agreed. First because God creates all men in His own image, and Christ lightens every man coming into the world.

Second, because Scriptural record and prophecy confirms the success of the Lamb of God in conforming repented saints to His own image unto the end this life, and forever by resurrection from the dead in His likeness.

Unless there is any correction otherwise, then God foreknows all things by watching all things come to pass. And the only person God has predetermined and foreordained what to do, is Jesus Christ the Lamb of God.

And, I'll add, that is because God can only trust Himself, to not lie about what he will surely do.

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

All men are created in His image, but no man can be foretrusted to do His will at all times, until they do so.

 

[RandyK]

Of course not, which is why I give other Scriptures with John 1:1, to prove the teaching.

John 1:1 reveals the mystery of the Godhead, that there was God the Word with God in the beginning of creation.

Other Scriptures reveal that God watches all things come to pass from on high.

God the Word was with God in the beginning, and God the Word watches all things present today. Therefore, God knew all things to come to pass from the beginning, by God the Word watching all things come to pass yesterday, today, and tomorrow; Not by predetermining all things that angels and men will do.

It's called giving the sense of Scriptures taken together. We don't learn all things of God and His Word from one verse alone.


Correct. If man sins on earth, like the angels that sinned in heaven, then the Lamb of God must come in the flesh, die for our sins, and be raised again for our justification.

Men that sin must repent to receive the Lamb of God and His sprinkling of blood, for atonement from sins and trespasses.

The only Person in the beginning predetermined what to do, is Jesus Christ the Word and Lamb of God.

All other persons coming into the world have liberty from God, to determine what they will do with the gift of being created in His own image.



You can choose to reject the teaching from Scriptures given, but without correcting anything in it, then it's just your personal choice not to believe it.

Which doesn't matter to me. I'm not interested in converting anyone to what I teach, but only in knowing the true teaching of Scripture. Without any correction, I keep what I have so far. If well corrected by showing error in it, then the teaching is made better and more sure.


Not to me. I perfectly understand it.

A hallmark of justifying rejection of something, that may indeed be true, is to pronounce the matter as being too complicated, rather than just agree with it, or correct it.


You can begin by showing any error in what I've now taught twice to you. If not, then it doesn't matter to me if you agree or not. I'll simply believe the argument, thus far, has no flaws in it.

The reason I don't take these things personal, like others do, is because I'm only interested in the accurate teaching of Scripture. I don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees with me personally, but only if what I am teaching is proper from the words of the Lord.


Agreed. First because God creates all men in His own image, and Christ lightens every man coming into the world.

Second, because Scriptural record and prophecy confirms the success of the Lamb of God in conforming repented saints to His own image unto the end this life, and forever by resurrection from the dead in His likeness.

Unless there is any correction otherwise, then God foreknows all things by watching all things come to pass. And the only person God has predetermined and foreordained what to do, is Jesus Christ the Lamb of God.

And, I'll add, that is because God can only trust Himself, to not lie about what he will surely do.

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

All men are created in His image, but no man can be foretrusted to do His will at all times, until they do so.

Sorry, I've somewhat lost the context of this conversation due to dealing with our "Faith Alone" dialogue. It seems we agree on some of the Predestination matters. We agree on the Word being "with God" from the beginning.

We can get back to this, if you like. But I'm not sure what issues we need to clarify our positions on in this respect?

I believe God the Word was "with God" from eternity because God always exists with His own Word, which is, in my view, His self-expression. He can create objects outside of Himself, and He can creates images of His own Person within creation, eg Jesus.

God has promised to Himself to accomplish certain things in creation, which cannot fail. He has also created free agents, angels and men, who have parameters within which they can make real decisions with real consequences. I'm not sure we've disagreed on any of this?

 

[RBDERRICK]

Some may never clarify, but that is largely because it is simply understood to be the case that it is faith alone in Christ alone and that it is all a work of God's grace alone. Some people just say that we are justified by faith alone as short for justified by faith alone, in Christ alone, by grace alone. Similarly, some just say that we are justified by grace alone as a short form. But, they all mean the same thing.

None of these words, other than the error of calling it faith alone, is what is being argued against.

The argument is against being justified by any faith alone in Christ, that is also apart from any works we do or don't do.

In 2 ways, James 2 rebukes any justification by that faith in Christ, that is alone apart from works:

First is the example of having any faith in the Lord, while evilly having respect of persons in the family of God, due to social status and wealth.

The second example is of having any faith toward God and man, when not doing any good at hand, not loving our neighbors as ourselves.

In both cases, the person's faith in Christ is rejected by God, as unrighteous faith toward Himself, by doing unrighteousness, and secondly as being dead faith toward God and man, by doing no good at hand.

James 1-2 is judging our faith in the Lord by works, as being righteous and alive, or unrighteous and dead.

James 1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons... But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

James{2:14} What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?...Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
If any man trusts in his faith alone to save and justify us, while doing evil and not good, then we decieve ourselves.

Rom 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

And any Christ that the decieved believer is trusting in, to justify us apart from the works we do, is another Christ of another gospel, not our Lord Jesus Christ according to the Scripture.

And none of the doctrinal speeches for being justified by any faith in Christ, while doing no good, can change that simple truth. The true Christ of God has no respect for, or respect any faith in Him, if we are doing evil and not doing good.

Some supplemental false doctrines for having faith alone in Christ, apart from works include: There is now no more condemnation for doing unrighteousness, by grace God cannot see our sinning, by spiritual resurrection alone we are now and forever reigning with Christ, our soul is justified not our works, what we do is not who we are, repentance is of the mind alone not of works, having eternal security of the soul apart from the works we do, complete justification at once with incomplete gradual sanctification, etc...

Right, but that is to confuse justification with sanctification.

See above.

I've already given the Scripture enough time, that says God's washing, sanctification, and justification are in the same way and at the same time: All complete at once.

But, it is a very clear teaching of Scripture that no works justify anyone,

Scripture does not contradict Scripture. The only thing clear is contradicting Scripture by declaring no man is justified by works.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

{2:25} Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

James{2:22}Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And some of the justifying doctrines for preaching against Scripture include: James 2 is only speaking of having personal faith, not having the faith of our Lord that saves. Abraham and Rahab were only justified under the OT law, not by NT faith in Jesus Christ. The works do not justify us with God, but only with man, etc...

not even righteous works.

Works are only righteous by being justified with God. There are no righteous works that are not justified with God.

Only unrighteous works are unjustified with God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I've given the passages many times that prove this to be the case. Remember, in Gal 1 Paul says that anyone who adds works to justification is preaching a false gospel.

The error is adding works to faith, before we can be justified by Christ through His faith. Such as, circumcision, water baptism, communion, eucharist, a good deed, etc...

Adding good and righteous works to our faith in Christ, is necessary to abide in the true Vine, and make our salvation and justification sure, by not falling to temptation and unrighteousness.

2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

It's a free gift, so no one can boast; no one can earn their justification, even in part.

The righteous faith of Jesus Christ is the gift freely given by grace to any man, that repents from all his own works without Christ.

I would say that faith and repentance occur at the same time, as far as we're concerned,

And also so far as God is concerned, who knows the hearts of men and women, when repenting from dead works.

I would say that faith and repentance occur at the same time,but that faith actually precedes repentance.

Which of course contradicts itself being at the same time. Neither repentance nor faith toward God is before the other.

Heb {6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

And if there were any order, then it would be repentance first, then faith toward God's salvation. The same as repentance first, and then faith toward His gospel promise:

Mark{1:15} The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The only faith that preceeds repentance from dead works, is the unrepented sinner's own faith and lust to continue sinning, not the faith and righteousness of Jesus Christ.

And, that doctrine of any faith preceeding repentance, always precedes preaching either no repentance, or lukewarm repentance in time. Either of which are only at man's own will and time, not by commandment of God's whole repentance granted unto salvation, justification, righteousness, and holy life in Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:
Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

That is, God must first work on an unregenerate heart before one can see their need for Christ and repent.

Jhn 16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The Holy Spirit convicting the world of sins and trespasses, is not God working within any heart of lust, but is the Lord's condemnation upon all flesh that sins, which is only by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Act 2:17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Until we repent, the reproof of the Spirit of grace remains upon the sinning soul, not dwelling within the soul purified by recieving the Son's faith.

His conviction and reproof is by grace, and has the comforting promise of mercy and forgiveness, if any man repents. However, He is only the Comforter within the souls of them that do repent.

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

There is no refeshing well of life within any soul that sins, but only within the soul that wholly repents to do His righteousness from a pure heart.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
2Ti 2:22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
No corrupt heart of lust believing unto more sinning in life, can ever without shame call on the Lord unto salvation, nor be justified by his faith alone in any Christ, that he trusts would justify the soul while doing evil.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I agree, but I must confess. Something inside of me doesn't want to open up to the will of God at all times. Something inside of me wants to maintain my own independence--not necessarily rebellion against God, but fear of what He may ask of me.

Welcome to the temptation of Jesus Christ in the garden, and obedient service to God.

Luk 22:42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Jesusd sweated blood in prayer, because the last thing He wanted to do, was to submit His body to the hands of false, decietful, and unrighteous men. He only did so by wholly submitting Himself to the commanding will of the Father, which included without a word of His own defence.

Heb 4:14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

2Ti 2:3Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

The temptations of the saints are the same of Jesus Christ. Our temptations are not with lust of the world to sin against God. Our temptations like Jesus in the flesh, are with trials and tribulations and sufferings and persecutions in this life, that could hinder us from obeying God and doing His will that we know to do.

Being in Christ Jesus is only with a pure heart purged from lust, not with a corrupt heart of lust. And so, growing in Christ remains with a pure heart of faith, by learning obedience as He during the trials of this life.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

We war against disobeying God to do all things through Jesus Christ. We do not 'struggle' with lust and sin, while seeking to believe we are justified by our faith alone in Christ, during times of doing unrighteousness.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Accepting God's word as true, is only agreeing with the truth, not doing it.

How is agreeing to do something not doing it?

I am speaking of only agreeing with something, not of agreeing to do it.

The difference between unjustified hearers only vs justified doers of the word, is the injusticie of only agreeing with the word of truth and not doing it.

God is not pleased by any faith that only agrees He is God, which is no better than the faith of devils:

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

God only seeks them that have faith to both agree to and do His will.

And inf act, like Abraham offering of Isaac, we are still justified by doing His will through faith in His goodness and righteousness, even if His will is not agreeable nor pleasing to us.

But that's not what I mean by "accepting Christ in my heart" or "accepting the responsibility to obey God's word."

I accept the former as true, not the latter as something we do.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I sound rational, and not Scriptural, because the issue is language--not Bible.

That's the problem with arguing language--not Bible.

I don't accept any teaching that is not said in Scripture. I only accept the language of Scripture for true things of God, not the language that men like to talk and teach with.

Act 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Afterall, we are warned many times about the eloquent language argued by men, and yet not spoken by God:

Rom 16:18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

We "accept"--in English that means "to do."

This isn't even good English language. Your definition isn't proper English definition, nor that of Jesus Christ: To accept does not always mean to do.

Mat 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Nor is the argument about accepting the words of the Lord, nor even accepting to do His will. It's about the traditional Christian bromide of accepting Jesus into our hearts, and making Him Lord and Savior of our lives.

No, both can be true. He can choose us, and we can choose Him, as I see it.

Jhn 15:16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:

And we see here, that the error leads you to open rejection of Jesus' own words about such things.

The only problem we have between us, is your use of language to teach doctrine of Christ, that at times has no problem in contradicting Scripture. Such as teaching to choose Christ, or have faith alone in Him.

While we only need to believe in His resurrection confessing Him Lord Jesus, in order to be saved by Him, it is still dangerous not to allow our minds to be renewed with His mind according to the Scriptures, which is necessary to continue in good works conformed to His image and will.

Refusing to be corrected doctrinally by Scripture, can lead to being uncorrectable by the Lord in works.

No man chooses Jesus Christ, and no faith alone is alive to Him.

As I've said, God's Word begins by propositioning us. And then, we respond.

With repentance, and never with any acceptance to choose Him as Lord and Savior.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I don't know, but I tend to think God knows who in advance. Those who were not pre-planned were "additions" made possible by those who rebel.

All men and women created in the image of God and lightened by Christ coming into the world, are pre-planned to be conformed to His image in life.

God does not create nor pre-plan any angel nor soul of man or woman to disobey Him. Neither does He pre-plan who will repent to obey Him in Christ Jesus.

The only person God ever pre-planned what He will do in the world, is Himself to become the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

I happen to believe God does foreknow who His people will be.

True. Even as he now knows whose names are written in His bood of life, and whose names will not be found therein at the last judgment of works.

He doesn't predetermine any soul to be written or not written in the end.

I prefer to say that God had built into His Word both free will and the way of correcting the problem of rebellion against His Word, ie mitigation.

True. Salvation and deliverance from sin and rebellion against Him.

So though God did not plan for the Fall of either angels or men, He gave them not just free choice to determine to rebel but also the consequences of that, including its amelioration.

True. Perfectly complete restoration and reconcilation of a whole new creation in Christ Jesus.

Glad we found some things to agree on!

Me too. It's just that little language difference in words we use.

 

[RandyK]

All men and women created in the image of God and lightened by Christ coming into the world, are pre-planned to be conformed to His image in life.

Respectfully, I don't think so. Sounds nice, but God's different. He plans things, like X number of people for His Kingdom. And He sticks with that--His word cannot fail.

That being said, giving people freedom allows them to produce X+Y number of people, Y being those God didn't plan for. They are predicted to respond like the bad angels did.

It still leaves me wondering: What was so different about the angels that they were plan X, and then became Y? Seems that they are a different class of being than humanity?

Call me inconsistent, but don't call me dishonest. Just trying to do my best with what I see out there!

God does not create nor pre-plan any angel nor soul of man or woman to disobey Him. Neither does He pre-plan who will repent to obey Him in Christ Jesus.

Certainly not! But God did give angels and people a choice. It's just that with people, who live on earth, there are limited number of vacancies that I call X vacancies. Y people are embarassed by it, hostile towards it, and vomit it out.

They don't want an X vacancy, as long as those "born agains" are there! That I can't explain!

The only person God ever pre-planned what He will do in the world, is Himself to become the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

We agree that God has given us free will. That's not bad unless our choice is to not work with God.

True. Even as he now knows whose names are written in His bood of life, and whose names will not be found therein at the last judgment of works.

If He knows then He has pre-determined the X people. The Y people make predictable choices because they were born from the spirit of those who are hostile towards God's control.

This is a difficult subject. Thanks for your patience....

 

[RandyK]

This isn't even good English language. Your definition isn't proper English definition, nor that of Jesus Christ: To accept does not always mean to do.

Wrong. To "accept" means what the speaker or writer means when he or she uses the word. It is *context* that determines what the word means. If to "accept" God's offer of Salvation is intended to imply someone may make a choice, then this is perfectly good English grammar.

If the context involves a proposition, then to accept the proposition may very well require "doing." So you're completely wrong in this.

...argument about accepting the words of the Lord, nor even accepting to do His will. It's about the traditional Christian bromide of accepting Jesus into our hearts, and making Him Lord and Savior of our lives....
The only problem we have between us, is your use of language to teach doctrine of Christ, that at times has no problem in contradicting Scripture. Such as teaching to choose Christ, or have faith alone in Him.

So it's not really a disagreement about the Bible, but about your judgmentalism? Is that what you're saying?

It is pure "judgmentalism" to say that teaching the Bible is intended to mislead people into "getting around the Bible!" "Faith Alone" was never intended to get around doing good works. But you claim that use of those words indicates people intend to get around doing good works?

While we only need to believe in His resurrection confessing Him Lord Jesus, in order to be saved by Him, it is still dangerous not to allow our minds to be renewed with His mind according to the Scriptures, which is necessary to continue in good works conformed to His image and will.

I think Free did a perfectly good job exposing your poor interpretation of "Salvation by faith in Jesus' Resurrection?" But if you want to claim the earth is still flat after being taken on a tour around the earth, that's up to you!

Refusing to be corrected doctrinally by Scripture, can lead to being uncorrectable by the Lord in works.

Projection?

No man chooses Jesus Christ, and no faith alone is alive to Him.

I've told you repeatedly that you're misinterpreting Faith Alone. But you're apparently "incorrectable?"

 

[RandyK]

I am speaking of only agreeing with something, not of agreeing to do it.

The difference between unjustified hearers only vs justified doers of the word, is the injusticie of only agreeing with the word of truth and not doing it.

Yes, and as I've told you "Faith Alone" is speaking not of just accepting a doctrine, but much more, accepting Christ's proposition that we "do something"--that we obey him.

 

[RandyK]

None of these words, other than the error of calling it faith alone, is what is being argued against.

If you have wrongly interpreted the meaning of "faith alone," perhaps you should change your mind?