Lukewarm believers and faith

[RBDERRICK]

I don't know why you argue that Christ's death must conform to the rules of the Law,

I'm learning why someone would argue any atonement made by God, but not according to the pattern of God for all His blood sacrifices: Shedding and sprinkling of blood, and not shedding alone.

The same goes for why someone would argue the NT atonement was made under the OT. As well as not being made according to law of the OT.

I am learning that most all such confusion and corruption of the things of God by Scripture, can be traced directly or windingly back to faith alone justification.

which was under an entirely different covenant?

Not according to them that preach the NT atonement of the Lamb of God was made under the OT, but not according to law.

Confusing yes, but that's the winding course necessary to keep faith alone alive to justify the soul that sinneth, that it not die.

 

[RBDERRICK]

You've given me Scriptures on this matter of the resurrection providing for an atonement for sin, but none of them make the argument you are making. A reference to a "sprinkling of Christ's blood" does not prove what you claim it does, that it took place *at the resurrection.*

The Scriptures speaking of being sprinkled and washed with the precious blood of the Lamb of God is in the NT, not in the OT. Since we are now in the NT and not under the OT, and Jesus Christ is risen from the dead, then the Scriptures cannot be speaking of His blood being sprinkled and washing the people under the OT, and thus before His resurrection.

And of course the simple record of Scripture is that Jesus' blood was shed under the OT at the cross. There is no record of Scripture at the cross, where His blood with sprinkled by any priest, nor by Jesus Christ Himself, nor by the Father at the time. (Notwithstanding the suggestion of some unlawful OT shed-sprinkling of blood at the same time.)

Very simplistic yes, but taking the literal record and meaning of God's words, is always the best cure for confusion and corruption of Scripture.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[RandyK]

I'm learning why someone would argue any atonement made by God, but not according to the pattern of God for all His blood sacrifices: Shedding and sprinkling of blood, and not shedding alone.

I did not suggest "shedding alone," and not "sprinkling of blood," was necessary with Christ. Christ fulfilled this OT ritual in a spiritual, and not literal, OT way. Christ fulfilled it under a New Covenant, and not under the literal terms of the Old Covenant.

Christ literally spilled his blood, and not animal blood, on the cross. That's when the blood was "sprinkled" spiritually before God in heaven. Christ did not have to fly a jet to heaven to sprinkle his blood there, before his Father. He just had to die, with angels and men being witnesses.

The same goes for why someone would argue the NT atonement was made under the OT. As well as not being made according to law of the OT.

A New Testament atonement obviously is not made under another, different Testament! The NT atonement was *not* made under the OT Law!

I am learning that most all such confusion and corruption of the things of God by Scripture, can be traced directly or windingly back to faith alone justification.

You've never shown any real understanding of "Faith Alone." So it isn't worth arguing "Faith Alone" with you.

You've been told that "Fatih Alone" was designed to dismiss any claim that our Works in themselves obtain our Salvation. Faith in "Christ alone" bought our Salvation, and provides us with the Works we do as Christians.

So unless you believe your Works, apart from Christ, can get you to heaven, then you must also be "Faith Alone?" Or, you just wish to maliciously mischaracterize what "Faith Alone" means by those who use the term?

"Faith Alone" does not mean that a person can have Faith and ignore the need to do good works, or live in righteousness. That is not "Faith Alone." And yet, you continue to assert that that is the meaning of the term, or imply that it is so.

I would agree that it is wrong when people attempt to wrest this meaning, falsely, from the term, by declaring that Faith is all that matters, and that nothing we do has any value with God.

Those people are Antinomians, as I've told you. But you wish to tie Antinomianism to "Faith Alone," and as I've told you, that is not what "Faith Alone" people largely believe.

Go ahead and denounce Antinomianism or "False Grace." But don't tie it to "Faith Alone." Luther did not justify lawlessness--ever! What he did justify is the reality that we are sinners in constant need of mercy. Unless you think you're sinless, you should get behind Luther.

 

[RandyK]

True. Our present good works cannot atone for past sinful deeds. Catholic penitence is unto men, not to God.

That is a judgmental statement, meaning that you cannot make a divine proclamation about what is in the heart of all Catholics when they perform penitence in front of a priest, or Confession.

Whether repentance is done in the presence of other Christians or not is not determinative as to whether it is truly being done before God. Making judgments like that is "over the top" from my perspective, even if I can say *many* are performing perfunctory religious rituals.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I already addressed this. Jesus had physical DNA in common with all men.

RandyK said:
Obviously, Jesus' physical DNA and spiritual DNA were different from other men. Jesus shared blood in common with other men, but I would never say his blood was exclusively like that of other men.

You have a way of being corrected without being corrected.

You did the same with first preaching Jesus' atonement was made only by shedding His blood, and then changed to shedding and sprinkling. But being at the same time, it's still contrary to the pattern of God for any of His blood sacrifices. (No cutting corners to shed-sprinkle allowed)

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

The law's example of blood sacrifice given by God to Moses, is shedding of blood and then sprinkling. It's the pattern for the atonement made by the Lamb of God Himself. He does what He preaches, even if He has to rise again from the dead to make the atonement of sprinkling from above, and not left His atonement half done with shedding blood on the cross alone.

Shed blood alone does not make atonement for any person, even as faith alone does not justify any soul.

Nobody is arguing that Jesus wasn't a human being.

Not anymore. Since you now agree He had the same flesh by the same seed of Adam, and the same one blood of all men coming into the world.

Nobody should be arguing that he isn't God.

There are still those arguing He isn't both Lord and God, but only a created angel to be defied as a god.

Paganism is not dead. Not even among some naming Christ.

But he did not share a poisoned human spirit with the rest of mankind-

True. His soul never died to God by sinning like all men that have sinned.

-he had no sin nature.

Of course not. No man nor woman created in the image of God, with bodies of flesh made by Christ, are created and made with sin. Christ is not the maker of sinful things.

Nor is the god of this world a creator nor maker of anything by lies, such as his favorite one about people now being created sinful in the womb, and coming into the world children of the devil.

Many people who believe that lie, then go on to blame their flesh and blood for sinning with their bodies on earth.

Childish yes, but then blaming one's hand for murdering with a knife, is not unheard of. Some say the devil made them do it. Some say their bodies acted as if on their own, and the worst accursers say God made them that way.

So he had a different kind of physical/spiritual constitution that did not make him non-man, though it did make him different.

Back to another kind of flesh and blood, and not the same as all men and women coming into the world.

That's the problem with being corrected without being corrected. Only an appearance of correction is being made to hide the uncorrection.

Your whole argument appears to be an attempt to connect what Jesus did on the cross to ceremonies or rituals done under the Law of Moses.

Only those who try to make Jesus' atonement on a cross under OT law of Moses, are trying to change God's law of atonement into some abreviated or unintelligible version of it. (Shed-sprinkling or sprinkle-shedding? Seriously?)

It would also be the only Bible recorded human blood sacrifice made by Jews for atonement under the OT. Contrary to law of course. (Passing children through the fire doesn't count.)

We are not told Jesus' work was in parallel with the Law--only the *fulfillment* of the Law.

Jesus was only parallelling the law when obedient to the law? Is that like only ideally keeping commandments, but not really?

So you are doing an exercise in futility by trying to fit Christ's work on the cross to parallel that of how animal blood was treated under Temple Law. I deal with what biblical theology says explicitly--not with attempting to read theology into OT practices.

I've learned it's not futile to understand confusing errors made out of Scripture, and correct them by disciplined, yet simple, use of Scripture. Bcause in the accurate correcting of errors, we can learn Scripture more perfectly. Such as in this case about atonement of the Lamb being made on the cross alone. Before correcting the falsehood, I had not fully understood the glory of His atoning sacrifice made complete by His resurrection from the dead.

The only futility is when the same errors are repeated and become old, with nothing new to correct.

The NT authors did this work for us, and we shouldn't try to produce new doctrine by this kind of thinking.

Right. Including inserting one's own philosophy, rationalizations, and english language principles for doctrine of Christ. (Especially when butchering the english language with some sort of shed-sprinkling or sprinkle-shedding of blood to death)

Mar 7:13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[RandyK]

You have a way of being corrected without being corrected.

You "corrected" me how? I have for quite some time said that we have physical DNA and spiritual DNA. That is, we inherit human attributes from our parents, and we inherit the Sin Nature from our forefathers, as well. I see no correction from you on this matter, since this is what I've long believed and said.

You did the same with first preaching Jesus' atonement was made only by shedding His blood, and then changed to shedding and sprinkling. But being at the same time, it's still contrary to the pattern of God for any of His blood sacrifices.

You "corrected" me on my supposedly speaking of "shedding of blood" and not "sprinkling of blood?" I think you read things into what people say, and then accuse them of mis-speaking?

I've not once denied there is a "sprinkling of blood," since it is quoted in the NT. So you're wrong in claiming you've corrected me in this.

Not anymore. Since you now agree He had the same flesh by the same seed of Adam, and the same one blood of all men coming into the world.

And here's your problem. You define "flesh" differently from how I define it. I don't think Jesus had the same "flesh" that Adam had.

The Scriptures refer to "flesh" in the sense of its post-sin state of being, and not in its original pristine state of being. The "flesh" speaks of "carnality" and independent judgment, separate from God's word.

Jesus did not inherit that Sin Nature from Adam, although I wouldn't deny the humanity of Jesus--if you claim I said that you're patently dishonest.

Since your claims above are based on a misinterpretation of anything I've said, there's no use refuting it.

No man nor woman created in the image of God, with bodies of flesh made by Christ, are created and made with sin. Christ is not the maker of sinful things.

Here I think you're wrong again. People created in the image of God, such as Adam and Eve, or King David, had bodies of flesh and were created with a sinful human spirit.

They had a Sin Nature, after the Fall. Yes, God made them that way after the Fall. He did not make them that way originally.

Nor is the god of this world a creator nor maker of anything by lies, such as his favorite one about people now being created sinful in the womb, and coming into the world children of the devil.

I don't claim Satan has the power of creation--no more than people have the power of creation. But they can obviously apply God's laws in a corrupt way and alter what God originally created for good.

Hence, Jesus called people committed to evil "children of Satan." Obviously, they were created with a Sin Nature, who then chose to commit to that nature.

Only those who try to make Jesus' atonement on a cross under OT law of Moses, are trying to change God's law of atonement into some abreviated or unintelligible version of it.

Who is trying to make Jesus' atonement "under OT law of Moses?" I don't even know what that means? Jesus' atonement was a NT atonement--not an OT atonement under Moses' Law!

Jesus was only parallelling the law when obedient to the law? Is that like only ideally keeping commandments, but not really?

I said that NT fulfillment is *not* a matter of "paralleling the OT Law!" You really get things wrong! You are the one who has tried to "parallel the Law" by comparing "shedding and sprinkling" under the Law with the "shedding and sprinkling" of Jesus.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Jesus did not "make" himself different by choosing to operate his faith in a certain way. He was already God before he became man, and merely presented his faith as a Divine faith.

He did not make Himself different from who He was and is, being God in the flesh, but proceeded to make himself separate from all men, by not sinning in the flesh like all men.

He did not sin as all men in the flesh, because His flesh was more special than any man, but because His faith toward God the Father was perfect from the heart, in all His ways and life in the flesh.

Psa 101:2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

I've not once characterized Jesus' flesh as "super-human flesh."

Jesus' flesh was perfect, but it is senseless to call it "super-human."

It's nonsensical to say Jesus' flesh was 'perfect', as being better than an 'imperfect' flesh of other men, and not call it "super-human" flesh.

All flesh is made by God the same on earth: Natural. He was not deformed in body, as some other men are born, but His flesh was the same as all men and women on earth.

Jesus' flesh was made of the same seed of Adam through Noah, Abraham, and David in the womb of Mary.

The Scriptures I've given saying so, without you acknowledging them, has been quoted enough on this matter.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Your focus seems to be on separating the righteousness of Christ from the unrighteousness of Man,

Which is why men without Christ are unjustified by their own righteousnesses of good deeds and works of law.

but I cannot say that we ever become as righteous as Christ was until we are rendered immortal.

And there we go. By your faith alone, you declare your own unbelief alone toward the righteousness of God.

Psa 106:3Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

You do not believe the promise of the Scriptures, that by repentance from dead works, Jesus Christ can take away lust and sin unto His righteousness.

Instead you wait for a vain of hope of being born again of God in Christ Jesus only after the grave.

Rom 10:16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,

Your own unbelief toward doing the righteousness of God, does not nullify the righteous faith of God in Christ Jesus preached by His apostles; Not does it prevent other hearers from repenting to recieve His faith for ourselves to walk as He walked

The 'we' you declare is for yourself alone, by your faith alone, in your Christ alone. It does not include me.

Neither you nor anyone else's unbeliefand no hope of doing God's righteousness unto the end, speaks for nor prevents me, nor any other naming Christ from doing so.

Jer 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Eph 2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
The promised hope of the gospel of Jesus Christ, is that if we will but repent from our dead works for His sake, then God will send us Jesus Christ with His righteous faith to do God's will, and not die in sins and trespasses.

Repentance granted by God unto His righteous salvation and justification from unrighteousness of the world, is only now in this life, not in the resurrection of the dead.

2 Cor 6:2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Psa 95:8Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.

The vain hope of repentance from the grave, is only for them that harden themselves, and especially for them that trust in Christ to justify them by their faith alone apart from their unrepented deeds of unrighteous.

Heb 2:2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Any salvation and jsutificaton to only sin less than before, is not so great at all. Any religious Buddhist can do that.

 

[RandyK]

Any salvation and jsutificaton to only sin less than before, is not so great at all. Any religious Buddhist can do that.

Yes, Christians who by faith put into motion Christ's righteousness in their lives are still viewed as "sinners." They don't live as sinners, but they remain tainted with sin. They remain saddled with the Sin Nature, which they have an obligation to regularly overcome.

There is a big difference between the Buddhist who "sins less" and the Christian who lives a life "overcoming sin." The Christian, for example, has emptied himself of any allegiance to his old independent life to live henceforth in partnership with the Spirit of Christ, choosing the way of Christ.

We try to make all of our choices in consultation with God so that what we do is "in Christ" regularly. This does not, however, render us "sinless."

We do not always succeed in submitting to the way of Christ. Nor is the Sin Inclination eradicated from our spirits. We remain conscious of our rebellion and waywardness even as we seek, by our new nature, to overcome it and to prevail in the righteousness of Christ.

The obvious difference between the Christian and the Buddhist is the conscious choice the Christian makes to embrace the Gift of Life that Christ offers us. Buddha cannot promise that.

The Gift of Life that Christ offers us involves the implantation of an entirely New Nature, by our simple choice to accept it. In doing so, we can not only "sin less," but we have implanted within us the desire to be good. We want to be good *by nature,* and not just out of a guilty conscience.

 

[RandyK]

He did not make Himself different from who He was and is, being God in the flesh, but proceeded to make himself separate from all men, by not sinning in the flesh like all men.

He was already separate from sinners from conception, but he did live out his life making this separation from sinners clear.

He did not sin as all men in the flesh, because His flesh was more special than any man, but because His faith toward God the Father was perfect from the heart, in all His ways and life in the flesh.

Jesus did not have different human flesh/skin from all other men except that it was not impregnated with the effects of internal sin. Jesus had no internal sin.

Jesus' faith is not what made him Divine. On the contrary, he was divinely "the Word" before he was incarnated as a man. His choices, once becoming a man, therefore, demonstrated who he was as the Divine man.

Our faith helps us to live like him and in him because it is by faith that we accept his gift of righteousness. His word is free, and so is his redemption. And so, when we receive his word of redemption, offering us a new life, we can by faith receive a new nature that lives forever in the presence of God.

It's nonsensical to say Jesus' flesh was 'perfect', as being better than an 'imperfect' flesh of other men, and not call it "super-human" flesh.

I'm not talking about superiority of human skin. It is the person of Jesus who was perfect. And since that person had human skin, I believe the skin was perfect, as well, though mortal and susceptible to earthly impacts.

Jesus' flesh was made of the same seed of Adam through Noah, Abraham, and David in the womb of Mary.

The Scriptures I've given saying so, without you acknowledging them, has been quoted enough on this matter.

Yes, we've run this thing into a gutter. You never seem to get definitions right in a way where we can agree on how we put things. Time to give it up?

 

[RBDERRICK]

and then demanding that we live by the righteousness of Christ without accepting that we should ever justify doing wrong again?

Shall we live by the righteousness of Jesus Christ, that grace may abound? God Forbid!

Me? Do you really believe this is between you and me? I only quote God's words and commandments, not my own.

I certainly don't expect any justifier by faith alone to repent of all their sins and trespasses, much less demand it. Afterall, the whole reason for believing in it, is to not need to wholly repent.

That's the Lord Jesus Christ's command and judgment of works, not mine.

and then demanding that we live by the righteousness of Christ without accepting that we should ever justify doing wrong again?

Not only is your faith unbelief in living holy in all manners of life, but does your faith now also preach against doing the Lord's righteousness at all times? Is that the unjust demand you reject and abhor?

Does your faith preach obedience to God, but only with some space and 'breathing room' for disobedience to do wrong again, with justification?

Are you saying any expectation of doing God's righteousness, should also include acceptance for disobeying Him, with justification?

Jesus Christ doesn't accept nor justify any man or woman ever doing wrong at any time.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I quite agree that the sinless righteousness of Christ is different from our human record of righteousness,

I.e your own record of unrighteousness. You delcare by your faith, that you don't believe in doing His righteousness. Your faith is unbelief toward God and His righteousness.

No problem with me. Both your faith and your righteousness are your's alone, not my faith and righteousness. And by your own confession, neither is your faith and righteousness that of Jesus Christ the righteous, faithful, and true.

No disagreement from me. I take people at their word. It's only the unrighteous Christians by their faith of unbelief in doing God's righteousness, that call the saints liars, when we confess having Jesus' faith and doing His righteousness.

Psa 106:3Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

but I cannot say that we ever become as righteous as Christ was until we are rendered immortal.

Of course not. No unrighteous sinner without repentance, can ever become righteous as Jesus, and walk as He walked.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

Once again. I completely agree your declaration of faith is unbelief toward God's righteousness, and walking as Jesus walked.

until we are rendered immortal.

The only immortality of the unrighteous going to the grave in their unrighteousness, is unto shame, contempt, and darkness apart from the true Light Jesus Christ.

Jde 1:12These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

No repentance is granted from the grave, and no one is born again and made new by resurrection unto judgment.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Christ has, in my view,

And again, I whole heartedly agree you only preach your own view of things. Your faith is just your view on things, that are meaningless to the word of the Lord.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

God doesn't have any respect for any person's own views when judging us by our works.

entrusted his pure righteousness to us who will have a spotty record,

Jde 1:12These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear:

Nothing is pure in a spotted cup.

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus Christ must first come and take away the lust and sin from the unclean heart, in order to make the cup clean and pure within and without.

Jhn 1:29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

1Jo 3:5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

The spots among the lukewarm are no doubt less spotty than before, but they never leave the cup spotless. They won't even allow for any other cups to be spotless on earth.

sometimes walking by the Spirit and at other times not.

I.e. double hearted and unrepented for life. You are on a role indeed. Saying all the unspoken things usually kept hid by justifiers through faith alone. In a way it's quite refreshing, though disgustingly lukewarm.

And, we're back on track with the thread.

"Lukewarm faith of lukewarm believers therefore, is known by works, that are neither all cold nor all hot, neither all good nor all evil. The lukewarm works are both good and evil. The Lukewarm are doing both good and evil."

I.e. the Lukewarm sometime walk after the Spirit and sometimes walk after the flesh, and they will never repent to walk only after the Spirit, nor even only after the flesh.

{3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
And all of them with their spotty works, are wholly spit out and cut off from Jesus Christ and His righteous body.

Jas 3:11Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

Your open confession of your unbelieving faith, unrighteousness, and impure religion is a bittersweet fount indeed.

And even when we walk by the Spirit we will recognize the Sin in us that renders us less than perfect.

No unrighteous sinner is walking in the Holy Spirit, with filthy lust still untaken away by Jesus Christ's circumcison of heart.

The only spirit the spotty and unrighteous walk after, is that of the god of this world.

Eph 2:2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Lukewarm repentance by lukewarm faith unto lukewarm religion of lusting sinners, is certainly not the faith and pure religion of Jesus Christ, that is lived by Himself and His righteous saints on this earth.
Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

As far as your theology,

If it's my own theology, then show any error in the sense I give of the Scriptures I quote. Your disagreements by your own views may mean something to you, but are meaningless to me and anyone else trusting only in the Scriptures of truth.

 

[RBDERRICK]

That only resurrection justifies us, You argue it from the Law of Moses,

Only the resurrection. Just a byproduct of no importance to the atonement made by the Lamb of God.

The Lamb of God died for our sins by shedding His blood. He is risen to make atonement for our sins by sprinkling His blood, on them that repent of our sins that shed His blood..

That only resurrection justifies us, You argue it from the Law of Moses,

I argue any blood sacrifice and atonement under the OT, from the law of Moses. I don't argue for any blood sacrifice as God's, whose blood is only shed and not sprinkled.

And I certainly don't argue any definition of bleeding out, as a sprinkling unto death.

Killing the sacrifice is not the atonement. Sprinkling the blood makes the atonement.

Lev 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Lev 17:11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

The shed blood does not make atonement for anyone. It's only the blood sprinkled that makes the atonement for our souls.

The atonement is not made by the Lamb of God as that of bulls and goats. His blood was shed by man, but only He Himself sprinkles His blood by resurrection from the dead.

And only upon the obedient that repent of their sins and His death. He died for our sins to be repented of, He is raised again to atone for and justify them that do repent.

-NT theology does not explicitly identify the resurrection of Christ as the source of our forgiveness, atonement, and redemption.

Your theology doesn't. God's words do:

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Your disdain for Jesus' resurrection as necessary to be saved, is by your own faith alone.

The NT of God is that of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, not the dead Jesus on a cross. Any NT without the resurrection of Jesus Christ certainly qualifies as another gospel, than that of Jesus Christ given to His apostles:

Gal 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is that of His death for our sins, buiral, and resurrection from the dead, that any man may now repent of our sins that killed Him, and recieve His atonement, mercy, and righteousness from lust and sin.

The dead Jesus on the cross, could not forgive any man on earth for killing Him.

It is the death of Christ, and the blood of Christ, that indeed identifies our sin and guilt, but which then recognizes at the same time our forgiveness, atonement, and redemption.

His death condemns the sins of all men, and judges all sinners guilty of His death at the cross. And a dead man recognizes nothing on earth.

The theology of beleiving in the death of Jesus Christ alone for forgiveness of sins, is trusting in a dead man to forgive us for killing Him.

There is no NT without the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There is no NT forgiveness on earth by the dead Jesus Christ.

The death of Christ on the cross is therefore the source of God's grace and mercy to us,

It's the source for God judging all men guilty of His innocent shed blood. The Jew first and also the Gentile.

because that is where our sins are fully pointed out and thus where we can escape its verdict.

No one on earth escaped that judgment of guilt at the cross, nor during the 3 days of His burial.

The resurrection certainly had to follow or the forgiveness we obtained at the cross would go to no value.

And so, we see the same preaching of all justification by faith alone, as being apart from works. If forgiveness is at the cross by faith alone in His death, then it cannot be with any repentance from dead works.

Only by His resurrection does Jesus now command all men everywhere to repent of His death.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts{3:19} Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; {3:20} And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

These verses are called NT Scriptures, because they are written by God's apostles given them by the resurrected Jesus Christ.

Act 1 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

The commandments and promises of NT repentance and forgivness of sins are not written before His resurrection. They are only given and made after His resurrection, And certainly not while killing Him on a cross, nor while His dead body was in a tomb.

Only by His resurrection can Jesus Christ now atone for and forgive them that repent. Only by His resurrection can He now be sent into our hearts to convert us to His faith and righteousness. Only by His resurrection can the risen Lamb of God wash away our own faith of unrighteousness, which is dead by lust and unrighteous to God the Father.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Rather, he was defining "Faith" as he saw the Bible define it, as separate from anything having to do with our Works independent of God.

True.

Our justifying faith of our Lord Jesus Christ is without any works independent of God. His justifying faith is only with works we do dependent upon God.

Anyone's faith alone in Christ is dead to God, being without works dependent upon God.

Jas 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
And, any faith in Jesus' death alone to atone for sins, is unjustified without Jesus Christ sprinkling His blood by resurrection from the dead.

-only a "Faith" that was completely connected to God's Word.

The only faith connected to God's word is doing His word.

Rom 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Any faith disconnected from doing the word of truth, is dead being alone.

Agreeing and accepting God's word is true, does nothing to justify the soul with Jesus Christ.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Luk 6:46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Mat 7:21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

It was this Faith Alone that was true "Faith" for Paul,

Not for Jesus Christ, nor any of His apostles.

Any faith alone is dead to God and man. Any preaching of faith alone is not connected to Scripture, nor the gospel of Jesus Christ.

If our Works are connected to God's Word they are not Independent Works. Thus, they are genuine biblical "Faith."

True.

No faith alone independent of works is faith toward God. No one having any faith independent of works is saved and justified by God.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

The faith of oneself alone independent of works, is not the faith of Jesus Christ given by grace, to them that repent for His faith's sake.

And, anyone preaching any faith alone independent of works, are preaching of themselves alone, not of Jesus Christ:

{4:5} For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The error of justification by one's faith alone in Christ, is when their faith is only within, but not doing any good towards God and man.

This is *not* the error of Justification by one's Faith Alone in Christ, because what you're saying adherants of this position believe is *not* what they believe!

Some say so plainly.

Others say it by preaching atonement and foriveness of sins at the cross, by faith in the death of Jesus alone.

Such faith and forgivness cannot be with any repentance and works through Jesus Christ, which can only be by His quickening Spirit and resurrection from the dead. Faith of repentance and good works by His Spirit therefore, cannot possibly be at the cross with His death alone.

Any such faith in forgiveness of sins at the cross alone, is in the mind alone, because it is necessarily with dead works unrepented of.

Hence, both their faith and forgiveness is in their own minds alone, not only being apart from doing good, but necessarily with doing evil.

Good Conservative adherants of Faith Alone would fully support the need to add Works to their Faith--they just would not admit Works as part of the equation for receiving Salvation.

Which is justification by faith alone apart from our deeds, in order to be justified while doing works of unrighteousness.

So long as any faith is preached for justification apart from what we are doing, is the idolatry of a Faith Alone standing entirely on it's own to justify the soul, apart from the truth of our deeds judged righteously by God.

It's vain imagination of the mind alone, that wants to believe in being jsutified by our own faith and good will alone, and not by doing the truth of God's word.

James 2:15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

1 John 3:17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Jas 4:17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Any faith apart from doing the good will of God at hand, is dead and sinful faith toward God.

Personally, I think Faith is part of what obtains Salvation, not in the sense of earning it,

True. The faith of Jesus Christ recieved by grace is with His salvation from sins and trespasses.

It is only recieved with God's commanded repentance from dead works.

We therefore repent and are saved, through the free gift of Jesus' righteous faith, without any works independent of God to boast of. All such dead works of our own are repented of, forgiven, washed away, and with us no more, nor on our record with God:

Heb 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

[RandyK]

We've gone enough times around this bush. Basically, we disagree.

In my view, the death of Christ is what brought us forgiveness and redemption. You disagree. You think that redemption takes place only at the resurrection of Christ, and not at the death of Christ.

We both agree that the resurrection was critically important for our Salvation. And we both agree that repentance and obedience is a necessary part of Christianity. We don't agree on the language.

 

[RandyK]

True.

Our justifying faith of our Lord Jesus Christ is without any works independent of God. His justifying faith is only with works we do dependent upon God.

To be clear, I don't accept the language that it is the "faith of Jesus" that we adopt. In my view, it is *our own faith* that we exercise in Jesus, who is the object of our faith. That is, Jesus is the object of our faith, and not "Jesus' faith."

Anyone's faith alone in Christ is dead to God, being without works dependent upon God.

We agree on this. Independent works are worthless with respect to Eternal virtues and Eternal Life. Our repentance obtains value when we make Christ the object of our faith and the means of our conversion to good works.

Agreeing and accepting God's word is true, does nothing to justify the soul with Jesus Christ.

Right. Acceptance alone falls short. However, Faith as expressed in the Protestant World normally does not separate "acceptance" and "doing." So you are arguing against aberrations, and not the orthodoxy of "Faith Alone."

 

[RandyK]

The Lamb of God died for our sins by shedding His blood. He is risen to make atonement for our sins by sprinkling His blood, on them that repent of our sins that shed His blood..

I don't agree that Jesus arose to make atonement. His death made atonement. His blood, as it was shed, brought us forgiveness. It did not await the resurrection.

Killing the sacrifice is not the atonement. Sprinkling the blood makes the atonement.

Both killing the sacrifice and sprinkling the blood make the atonement. In Christ's case, they took place simultaneously--this was not an OT ritual. Christ was the real fulfillment of what the OT ritual only represented, symbolically.

The atonement is not made by the Lamb of God as that of bulls and goats. His blood was shed by man, but only He Himself sprinkles His blood by resurrection from the dead.​

Jesus' blood was shed by man, but strictly by the will of God. It was a sacrifice *God made.*

Your disdain for Jesus' resurrection as necessary to be saved, is by your own faith alone.​

I don't have "disdain" for Jesus' resurrection. But you have "disdain" for Jesus' blood atonement, where there is no necessity for a literal "sprinkling" separate from his death.

The dead Jesus on the cross, could not forgive any man on earth for killing Him.

Jesus forgave Israel on the cross even before he died! Certainly, God forgave mankind as Jesus died on the cross, for the things Israel did to him and for things all men do in disobedience to God.

The theology of beleiving in the death of Jesus Christ alone for forgiveness of sins, is trusting in a dead man to forgive us for killing Him.

Jesus' blood is not "trusting in a dead man." It is trusting that God forgives us for that act when we turn to follow Jesus, who always lives as Deity. Jesus did not stop being Divine in his death.

And so, we see the same preaching of all justification by faith alone, as being apart from works. If forgiveness is at the cross by faith alone in His death, then it cannot be with any repentance from dead works.

You misrepresent "Faith Alone." It is not "faith alone in His death." It is faith in Christ apart from faith in ourselves. Faith in Christ's atoning death does not preclude faith in his resurrection from the dead.

The commandments and promises of NT repentance and forgivness of sins are not written before His resurrection. They are only given and made after His resurrection, And certainly not while killing Him on a cross, nor while His dead body was in a tomb.

When the Church actually began living in the Spirit has nothing to do with when atonement was made by Christ. Atonement was made on the cross. The Spirit was given later, at the time determined by God.

You keep arguing the necessity of Christ's resurrection, when nobody doubts that. The point is, the atonement took place at Christ's death. And only you dispute that.

 

[RandyK]

I.e your own record of unrighteousness. You delcare by your faith, that you don't believe in doing His righteousness. Your faith is unbelief toward God and His righteousness.

No problem with me. Both your faith and your righteousness are your's alone, not my faith and righteousness. And by your own confession, neither is your faith and righteousness that of Jesus Christ the righteous, faithful, and true.

Your "word salad" is caused by your unwillingness to use the same language that others do when discussing these things. One can easily misconstrue "righteousness" in our lives.

Essentially, Christians live in righteousness because by *Christ's sinless record* we are given access to his spirituality. Even as we live righteous lives we remain flawed by sin.

And though that is a relevant record, admitting we still have a Sin Nature, this does not prevent us from living in Christ's righteousness and allowing ourselves to be viewed as "righteous," as well. Please stop confusing the record Christians have as people still viewed as "sinners" and yet living as a "righteous people!"