Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[mailmandan]

No. Your works don't keep Christ interceding in heaven for you (Hebrews 7:25). Your faith does.

What I keep hearing from certain folks on this forum is what I refer to as "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door.

 

[GodsGrace]

And I showed you in the Bible why he does, even though he himself doesn't need proof of whether or not we have faith.

Which verse re how God needs to see our works as evidence of our salvation?

 

[GodsGrace]

What I keep hearing from certain folks on this forum is what I refer to as "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door.

Your salvation will be by works.
NO BACK DOOR.
Jesus stated what we need to do to be saved.
He stated WORKS.

No obedience.
No works.
No salvation.

You've created your very own religion and a different gospel.
And I pray no one reading along believes the new gospel YOU are teaching since it is NOT
what Jesus taught.

I will no longer reply.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes it is. That is James' argument. What you don't think is scriptural is Paul's 'righteousness by faith apart from works' argument (Romans 4:6).

No further comments.
In EVERY writing of Paul...he mentions good behavior, which is, in itself, a good work.

I will not be posting any more scripture since scripture is irrelevant to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

No. Your works don't keep Christ interceding in heaven for you (Hebrews 7:25). Your faith does.

The above is not what Jesus taught.
I've given plenty of verses, explained scripture...
No further comment.

 

[GodsGrace]

Righteousness by faith apart from works does not mean having a faith that does not work.

It means righteousness is obtained by faith apart from consideration of your works. But you serve a gospel where your righteousness depends on your works - what you call your progressive sanctification.

No further comment.

 

[GodsGrace]

It depends on if you are sinning the sins of the believer growing up into the image and stature of Christ, or sinning the sins of the (ex)believer who has rejected Christ. Which are you referring to?

A believer doesn't lose his salvation every time he sins. I hope you don't believe that. There are growing pains associated with being a child of God for which you do not lose your salvation. A believer has to reject Christ and go back to unbelief to lose his salvation.

As long as the believer continues to believe and trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin their sin is continually atoned for by the blood they continue to believe in. The believer doesn't lose that forgiveness every time he sins as long he remains in Christ by faith.

The above is for JLB.

It goes to show how your understanding of posts is very limited because of your understanding of the NT.

NO ONE on this forum EVER stated that we lose our salvation by sinning.
We ALL sin.

What the bible teaches is that we are not to live in habitual sin...
PRACTICE SIN.
1 John 3:9

If you don't see a difference between 1 John 3:9 and 1 John chapters 1 and 2,,,therein lies the inability to discern scripture and have a conversation that is not stagnant.

And, I seem to remember a time when you believed that salvation could not be lost.
Perhaps, in the future, you'll also understand about good works being absolutely necessary for salvation.

Just as Jesus taught.

 

[JLB]

If you don't obey Christ's commandments, were you ever saved in the first place?

Judas was with Jesus over 3 years, and he did nothing to indicate to the other disciples that he was evil. Yet, Jesus called him "the son of perdition." As far as we can tell, Judas obeyed all that Jesus commanded, along with the other disciples, except at the end the devil got to him because he was NOT saved.

So, the one who proves he is actually saved is the one who endures to the end; that is, endures in abiding in Christ and keeping His commandments. And this can't be done without the faith that justifies.

Judas was a disciple of Jesus Christ, then he was promoted to an apostle with the other 11. He was sent out as an apostle with the power of the Spirit to preach the Gospel to the lost, cleanse the lepers, heal the sick, and raise the dead.

Judas was predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come just as the other eleven.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Judas always had a choice, just like the other eleven.

Just like Peter.

… when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.

Peter repented and was restored, like the prodigal son.

Judas committed suicide and therefore went to his own place.

 

[Rodger]

You're still missing the point, and this is what's frustrating. No, I'm not trying to have an argument.

But you haven't answered the question: can you love your neighbor? Is this Christ's commandment? Does this fulfill the law?

If you agree with the above, then the idea that you can't keep the commandments is in error. Perhaps when you say you can't keep the commandments, you are talking about the "613 laws of the Jews" - but again, your communication is not specific, and is easily misunderstood. Why not be clear about it?

You asked me again.......
"can you love your neighbor? Is this Christ's commandment?"

I answered your question with YES!
Have you read Galatians 5:14???
"For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

What about Romans 13:8.....
“Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law”.


The law Paul is talking about in these verses is the Law of Moses, which was given by God to Israel in Ex. 20-40. The law included the 10 Commandments and all the moral, ceremonial, and civil regulations that governed the life of the people of Israel in their covenant relationship with God.
Paul indicates that the entire law can be summed up in one operative word—love.

The Bible teaches us that It is impossible to love God and not love people. God’s heart, His very nature, is love. If the Spirit of God dwells in us, His love will flow through us to others.

 

[Rodger]

I agree with what you're saying; however, I'd like to clarify this statement "we are to try and live a life of 'less sin.'"

Paul says emphatically that there are certain acts of sin, if practiced, will prevent a person from inheriting the kingdom of heaven (1 Cor. 6 et al). For example, if I was an adulterer before conversion, and I commit adultery less after conversion, am I still born again? The way I read scripture, "less sin" doesn't cut the mustard here. Less adultery is still practicing adultery, and Paul declares such people will not be entering heaven.

So "less sin" has to be limited to things not in the infamous list, things like trying to treat people better, getting help concerning addictions, etc. Rom. 8:12-14 "brethren, we have an obligation, not to live according to the flesh; because if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh you will live, for all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God."

Christians who live carnal lives should justly have a guilty conscience and question their salvation. Only when a person sincerely repents from sin, trusting Christ for deliverance, does a person enter the promise of rest and experience peace with God. For example, if I look down on others, I should be seeking for the Spirit to change my attitude toward others, since Paul calls that "vain glory."

My point is, there are minor sins that people can easily forgive and tolerate, as we should, to be patient for others to become more mature in the faith. Such sins we might tolerate in ourselves, if they can be called sins, because of personality defects. But sins that the Bible explicitly says that God will not tolerate should not be tolerated by us; rather, we ought to take Biblical warnings seriously.

My point in all this is to clarify the term "sins" that is usually kept vague, and make distinctions between sin leading to death and sin not leading to death, as John does in 1 Jn. 5.

This is my point several posts ago. Obviously you have an argumentative nature. Clearly you look hard to find anything to disagree with.

My dear friend, when I said we as believers "Need to sin Less".......means that we can live a life that is not dominated by sin when we choose to stop the sin we do naturally.

 

[Rodger]

Believe me, it comes as no surprise to hear you say that, even though the scripture plainly says… Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Abraham like everyone else who has been justified, was done so by the obedience of faith.

The “work” Abraham did was to obey the word to offer his son Isaac on the altar.

Well then.....you can just remove all the Scriptures that say he was saved bu faith and you can believe what you want to believe.

 

[Rodger]

Yes. I agree. That is what is called good teaching by Churchianity today.

All opinion with no scripture.

Wonderful. We are in agreement! Praise the Lord!

 

[JLB]

It depends on if you are sinning the sins of the believer growing up into the image and stature of Christ, or sinning the sins of the (ex)believer who has rejected Christ. Which are you referring to?

Unbelievers have no forgiveness of sins, since Jesus is not their Savior.

If they repent and confess Him as LORD then they will be forgiven their sins, and be in Christ.

The blood of Jesus is for those who want to be saved, as well as those who are saved and want to be forgiven and cleansed of their sins.

All sin leads to death; eternal death.

In the parable of the lost sheep, one sin was the issue.

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. Matthew 18:15

If we don’t forgive others their sins, then we ourselves will not be forgiven. If we die in that condition we are just like unbelievers who never believed.

 

[mailmandan]

Your salvation will be by works.
NO BACK DOOR.
Jesus stated what we need to do to be saved.
He stated WORKS.

No obedience.
No works.
No salvation.

You've created your very own religion and a different gospel.
And I pray no one reading along believes the new gospel YOU are teaching since it is NOT
what Jesus taught.

I will no longer reply.

Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly states saved by grace through faith, not works, yet you teach salvation by works. You teach a "different" gospel. A works based false gospel.

Obedience/works are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. Paul clearly stated that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)

Jesus repeatedly said that those who BELIEVE will receive eternal life. (John 3:15,16,28; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) You try to "shoehorn" works "into" believes but the shoe does not fit.

Romans 4:4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth. I will continue to pray for you.

 

[JLB]

Well then.....you can just remove all the Scriptures that say he was saved bu faith and you can believe what you want to believe.

Saved by faith means you confessed Jesus as Lord, and believed God raised Him from the dead.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

This is how we obey the Gospel.

This is the obedience of faith.

Confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus.

By confessing Jesus as Lord we are obeying the Gospel command to repent.

 

[JLB]

A believer doesn't lose his salvation every time he sins. I hope you don't believe that.

I certainly don’t believe that a believer loses his salvation every time he sins.

However we must confess our sins to be forgiven.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly states saved by grace through faith, not works, yet you teach salvation by works. You teach a "different" gospel. A works based false gospel.

Obedience/works are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. Paul clearly stated that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)

Believes WHAT??
You apparently are unaware of the commandments Jesus left us with...
and you do not even believe scripture that has been offered to you.

And, you conveniently leave out Ephesians 2:10,,,as usual where it's stated that we are MADE FOR GOOD WORKS.
No choice.

Jesus repeatedly said that those who BELIEVE will receive eternal life. (John 3:15,16,28; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) You try to "shoehorn" works "into" believes but the shoe does not fit.

Romans 4:4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth. I will continue to pray for you.

Only the Holy Spirit can open your eyes to what BELEIVE means.
All your studies of Strong's have not succeeded in doing this for you.

No further comment.

 

[JLB]

As long as the believer continues to believe and trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin their sin is continually atoned for by the blood they continue to believe in. The believer doesn't lose that forgiveness every time he sins as long he remains in Christ by faith.

A believe who sins must confess his or her sin to be forgiven.

People who believe and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord, obey Him as Lord.

Walking in the light is not about being sinless.

However we must confess our sins to be forgiven and cleansed.

The blood of Jesus cleanses those who walk in the light.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:7-9

However, If we are walking with Him in the light, to me it’s not about “sin” as in stealing, lying, murder, adultery… but the sin of not doing what we know to do such as acts of love toward others, maybe even our own family. Not doing what is pleasing to Him.

As we mature in Christ, as Christ is formed in us to a greater degree, what we see as sin now as opposed to the past may be very different.

As John goes on to say…


My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 1 John 3:18-22

 

[mailmandan]

Believes WHAT??
You apparently are unaware of the commandments Jesus left us with...
and you do not even believe scripture that has been offered to you.

And, you conveniently leave out Ephesians 2:10,,,as usual where it's stated that we are MADE FOR GOOD WORKS.
No choice.

Only the Holy Spirit can open your eyes to what BELEIVE means.
All your studies of Strong's have not succeeded in doing this for you.

No further comment.

I know what BELIEVE means in regard to obtaining salvation and it involves faith, trust and reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation and not salvation by works as you suppose. You confuse cause and effect. Again, obedience/good works which follow saving belief/faith in Christ are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it.

 

[JLB]

What I keep hearing from certain folks on this forum is what I refer to as "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door.

When you make things that people didn’t say, I would imagine that you hear all kinds of things.