Inherint contradictions teaching Faith Alone

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,,,,
you're speaking about sin again and this is not the topic.

'nuff said.

So, 'infused righteousness' is not about sin? In one post you say it's about sanctification. Then in another you say it's about works of service. Can you make up your mind, please? I have other customers waiting. (Allen's frontal lobotomy reversed itself. He's next in line. Not to mention I have some double knot spying stuff to do later today.)

 

[mailmandan]

I disagree with you. Do you believe that this verse in John 15 means that we can remove all the others that say something opposite?

Jesus taught that once a person truly accepted Christ and became part of his sheep they would never perish.

Jn.10:27-30 says,
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give to them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, who gave them to me is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.”

Earlier in Jn.6:44 Jesus had also taught eternal security when he said,
“No man can come to me unless the Father who has sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day.”

That means that everyone that genuinely comes to Christ by faith, the Father had drawn him and he will make it to heaven. That is an absolute statement of truth. A person is drawn to Christ, he or she comes to Christ by faith, he or she is raised up on the last day.

It seems to me that you have failed in your teaching ministry by ignoreing the CONTEXT of JOhn 15 in the text you posted. The context is.................
Jesus is talking to the disciples about what has just happened with Judas Iscariot and others like him. Judas had attached himself to Jesus, but did not produce fruit and did not abide in Christ. He was a disciple only outwardly and the fact that he was not a disciple inwardly was shown by his lack of fruit-bearing. He did not abide or remain in Christ. He turned away from Christ. Judas was a "make believer".
Jesus spent his whole ministry speaking about this problem (Matt.7:15-23, Matt.13:3-9) He taught that there would be those who would attach themselves to Christ as outward disciples but Judas would not truly accept him as Savior. They would call themselves disciples of Jesus even though they were not saved.

Remember, the apostles were Jews who grew up in a culture where the outward was most important. They needed to understand that a person could become a disciple outwardly and not be a true disciple.

The best explanation, the ONLY one is that these warnings are directed toward professing Christians who appear, at least outwardly, to be connected to the Vine but were never saved to begin with. They are branches in the vicinity of the Vine, but there is a disconnect. Judas Iscariot is a good example of a false professor.

Judas Iscariot is a very good example of a false professor and speaking of John 15.

In me (εν εμο). Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, μη φερον καρπον) the vine-dresser "takes away" (αιρε) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 15, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

 

[Jethro Bodine]

FAITH ALONE is a reformed term meaning ONLY FAITH WITH NOTHING ELSE.
Most reformed don't even teach this anymore.

Go do a little study on this.
I'm not here to teach but only to discuss biblical doctrine.

If most Reformed churches don't teach Reformed doctrine anymore, how can they still be Reformed churches?

 

[Rodger]

Judas Iscariot is a very good example of a false professor and speaking of John 15.

In me (εν εμο). Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, μη φερον καρπον) the vine-dresser "takes away" (αιρε) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 15, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

Thanks. Judas was the "Contextual" example of what Jesus was referring to.

A parallel Scripture is Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

 

[Rodger]

So, it's not just me.

Just as I stated in post #921. What I keep hearing from certain folks on this forum is what I refer to as "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door. "Obedience maintains their salvation, works keep them saved, salvation preserved based on the merits of their performance." Certain folks also seem to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture, and the end result is salvation by works.

Yes......it is not just you.

Yes.......You are hearing "works based salvation" through obedience.

Now, the bottom line is that those folks have to put in a lot of overtime to make their opinions appear to be Biblical as you and I simply read the Bible, accept what it is we read and then go back to watching Gunsmoke on TV!

 

[mailmandan]

Yes......it is not just you.

Yes.......You are hearing "works based salvation" through obedience.

Now, the bottom line is that those folks have to put in a lot of overtime to make their opinions appear to be Biblical as you and I simply read the Bible, accept what it is we read and then go back to watching Gunsmoke on TV!

On a different Christian forum, there is someone who teaches that we are merely "initially" saved by God's grace through faith in Christ without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but after that works also play a part in the salvation process. These folks cannot have it both ways.

 

[tdidymas]

Judas was a disciple of Jesus Christ, then he was promoted to an apostle with the other 11. He was sent out as an apostle with the power of the Spirit to preach the Gospel to the lost, cleanse the lepers, heal the sick, and raise the dead.

Judas was predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come just as the other eleven.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Judas always had a choice, just like the other eleven.

Just like Peter.

… when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.

Peter repented and was restored, like the prodigal son.

Judas committed suicide and therefore went to his own place.

You are wrong about Judas. Jesus called him a devil and the son of perdition. He said "not everyone who calls Me 'Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, Judas' repentance was only on the surface, and he was never born of God, just as described in Heb. 6:4-6.

Does Jesus contradict Himself in anything He says? Or for that matter any of the apostles? So then, there is a marked difference between Judas and Peter. Jesus knew Peter was going to "return" or be "converted," because he was born of God. But Jesus knew Judas was going to betray Him and then faithlessly commit suicide because he was not born of God.

So then Jesus saying "you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones" was a general statement indicating that Jesus through them would have complete reign over Israel in His kingdom. And besides that, this statement was written after Matthias was chosen to take the place of the betrayer. Therefore, it did not apply to Judas, and therefore Judas was not predestined to adoption as a son. He had no faith to show for it. Ability to perform supernatural power does not prove that one has faith in Christ, nor does it prove that one is born of God. A person must follow Jesus spiritually to be among the elect, not those who merely "followed" Him in the flesh.

Your statement that "Judas was predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come just as the other eleven" is in error, and shows me that you don't know how to correctly interpret scripture. You ought to take some courses in Hermeneutics and learn some proper exegesis. But of course, I suspect you will completely reject what I'm saying here as you always do.

 

[tdidymas]

You asked me again.......
"can you love your neighbor? Is this Christ's commandment?"

I answered your question with YES!
Have you read Galatians 5:14???
"For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

What about Romans 13:8.....
“Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law”.


The law Paul is talking about in these verses is the Law of Moses, which was given by God to Israel in Ex. 20-40. The law included the 10 Commandments and all the moral, ceremonial, and civil regulations that governed the life of the people of Israel in their covenant relationship with God.
Paul indicates that the entire law can be summed up in one operative word—love.

The Bible teaches us that It is impossible to love God and not love people. God’s heart, His very nature, is love. If the Spirit of God dwells in us, His love will flow through us to others.

By this, it appears to me that you are admitting that you can obey the commandments then, I mean the 10 commandments, since that is the basis of all moral commandments stated elsewhere, correct? When you say Paul is talking about "the Law of Moses," do you think that is talking about the 613 legalistic demands of the Jews? When he says "the whole law is fulfilled" in love, do you think that excludes anything at all? So then, if you are loving your neighbor as Christ commanded His disciples, then how can you say that you can't obey the commandments, seeing that "the whole law is fulfilled" by loving one's neighbor?

I understand the distinction between spiritual ability of the believer and the spiritual depravity of the unbeliever. I acknowledge that the unbeliever is blind and unable to love as Christ commanded, and so a person not born of God cannot love God and his neighbor in faith. So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that an unbeliever cannot obey the commandments. But it also doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a believer can indeed love God and his neighbor as Christ commanded, since he has the Spirit to motivate him to do so. Isn't this the faith we live by and the faith that the apostles describe and teach in all the NT?

Therefore, the statement that anyone "cannot obey the commandments" can only apply to people who have not been born of God. It cannot apply to regenerate people (I'm just trying to clarify this idea). Do you agree?

 

[tdidymas]

This is my point several posts ago. Obviously you have an argumentative nature. Clearly you look hard to find anything to disagree with.

My dear friend, when I said we as believers "Need to sin Less".......means that we can live a life that is not dominated by sin when we choose to stop the sin we do naturally.

No, I don't "look hard to find anything to disagree with." This might be your perception, possibly because you don't like to be corrected? But "all scripture" is for correction as well as anything else concerning the truth. If I am seeing that you and whoever is debating with you are not on the same page, it is often because the communication is faulty and the usage of terms is not the same. All I am doing is trying to get people on the same page by advising on how to clarify the communication. I try to offer examples of how to correctly interpret scripture, because what the Bible actually means by what it says is of prime importance. I'm pretty sure you can agree with that, can you?

 

[JLB]

But not unto damnation. He would have to go back to unbelief, losing the efficacy of Christ's Sacrifice ever interceding on his behalf in heaven, for his sins to damn him. Assuming that's even possible for him to do.

Brother, believing without obeying is useless.

Unbelief and disobedience are the same thing.

If a person believes that Jesus taught us we must forgive or we ourselves won’t be forgiven, but they themselves don’t actually obey Jesus and forgive, then their sins won’t be forgiven just exactly like when they were unbelievers in their sins.

Sin is what separates us from God.
Sin is what sends people to hell.

A sinner is a person that is separated from Christ, just exactly as the teaching about the lost sheep shows us.

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:15-17

Someone who refuses to confess their sins won’t be forgiven, they are to be considered as a tax collector and a heathen.

Surely you understand what that so plainly means?


Jesus Christ loves us dearly, beyond anything we can imagine.

He paid a terrible price at the whipping post, the crown of thorns, the beatings, being spat upon, being rejected and mocked by His own people, before He ever was nailed to the cross. He suffered immensely for our sins, and healing and peace, SO THAT we can have The Holy Spirit, the same Spirit by which He had when He walked this earth, so that together with the new divine nature that is filled with the Holy Spirit, we can reign over sin in our mortal body.

If we should sin as we are growing, we can confess our sins and be forgiven.


If we chose to transgress His teaching then we will surely remain in our sins, just like a sinner is in their sins, and will be lost in our sins, when all we had to do is humble ourselves and confess our sins.

 

[JLB]

his word is not in us (vs. 10). 1 John 1:9 is not about confessing each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin we are toast," as some people seem to teach.

In regard to past, present and future sins being forgiven. Acts 13:39 - And by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Is that a yes or no.

My question was do you confess your sins in order to be forgiven and cleansed?

 

[tdidymas]

If most Reformed churches don't teach Reformed doctrine anymore, how can they still be Reformed churches?

Keep in mind that people like that, who you're debating with, can't see the definition of terms based on how they are used in their context. So then, when the word "faith" is used, the default definition is "mental assent without any commitment for obeying Christ" which is the way James uses the term in Ja. 2:24-26. That assumption is the same mistake the Council of Trent made.

But the definition of a true believer is vastly different than this, as in Rom. 10:10 and Heb. 11:6. It is as if they don't believe that real faith includes God working to actually deliver us from sin. Think about it - if a converted person can continue committing willful sin (such that they will not inherit the kingdom of heaven), then they were not really delivered from sin, were they? If a person can't see this clear logic, then how can they interpret anything in the Bible concerning the gospel?

It seems to me that debating with people who refuse to see and acknowledge this kind of reasoning is a waste of time. Unless of course, you are hashing things out in order to improve your communication skills and improve the way you interpret scripture. I guess then it wouldn't be a waste of time.

 

[mailmandan]

Is that a yes or no.

My question was do you confess your sins in order to be forgiven and cleansed?

Loaded question. Have I confessed my sins (1 John 1:9) in contrast with saying I have no sin (1 John 1:8) or have not sinned? (1 John 1:10) - YES.

DO I confess each and every sin that I have ever committed (keep a specific inventory) as a legalistic prescription to remain cleansed and if I forget a sin I'm toast? - NO.

Believers confess/speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment of their sins and need of cleansing and forgiveness.

 

[JLB]

The person who practices righteousness is showing that he is righteous. But you are reading it to say you make yourself righteous by practicing righteousness.

Looks like John was addressing the same deception as we have today.

He starts out saying… Little children, let no one deceive you.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7

• He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

A person can believe they are righteous because 20 years ago they were born again,but they are not living for God.

Oh they go to church and live lukewarm lives and believe lukewarm watered down doctrine that is a mixture of some scripture along with a healthy dose of the teachings of man.

There is no fear of the Lord. There is no passion or fire for the things of God.

Only excuses and deception. People deceiving themselves because they read and “believe” what the scriptures say, but they don’t do what the scriptures say.

• He who practices righteousness is righteous

A righteous person is someone who practices righteousness.

Surely you don’t believe a righteous person is someone who believes they are righteous because Jesus Christ paid the price for their righteousness, but they don’t practice righteousness?

Believing without obeying is demonic believing.

The Spirit of God in us give us the ability to do what is righteous.

Each Christian must choose to live according to the Spirit and practice righteousness, and by the Spirit crucify the sinful deeds of the flesh.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

Plainly, Paul is speaking to Christians, people who have the Spirit.

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die; (eternal damnation)
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (eternal life)

Sowing to the Spirit, using our time and effort to cultivate and practice Godly habits (ways) of righteousness so that we will reap eternal life is what every Christian is called to do.

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:6-7



JLB

 

[JLB]

I have NO religion! I am a born again believer in the Lord Jesus and that is a PERSON not a religion.

Amen. I hope so.

 

[JLB]

DO I confess each and every sin that I have ever committed (keep a specific inventory) as a legalistic prescription to remain cleansed and if I forget a sin I'm toast? - NO.

Ok. Have it your way.

If you believe John was being legalistic, when stating that we need to confess our sins to be forgiven, then so be it.

People who humble themselves before God, and draw near to Him to worship Him and pray, spending time in His presence certainly have no trouble confessing their sins because if you have an unconfessed you know it in your heart in your conscience and you won’t be able to enter His presence.

He will remind you what you need to confess.

When your heart is sensitive to the Spirit, He will help you with these things.

I usually start by confessing any sins I might have done but don’t realize it’s sin. Many things we do naturally, we don’t realize is sin to God. As we grow in our relationship with Him He helps us to change.

Knowing that He loves us, and wants us to spend time with Him is always motivating to want to draw near to Him.

The Spirit will lead in these things.

 

[JLB]

You are wrong about Judas. Jesus called him a devil and the son of perdition.

How about Peter? Is Peter a follower of Satan?

Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23

 

[JLB]

Your statement that "Judas was predestined to reign with Christ in the age to come just as the other eleven" is in error, and shows me that you don't know how to correctly interpret scripture.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas heard His Voice and followed Him for over 3 years.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Judas was made an apostle by Jesus Christ.

Judas was one of the twelve when Jesus said this to them.



Judas choose to turn away from following Him.

Judas sin of taking money from the money bag, gave Satan the legal right to enter Judas.


It’s a good example for us today to follow, if we have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying.

 

[mailmandan]

Ok. Have it your way.

If you believe John was being legalistic, when stating that we need to confess our sins to be forgiven, then so be it.

You are being legalistic (and not John) as a result of ignoring 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 which culminates in your inventory confession theology in order to keep yourself saved. Good luck with that. Better not forget one!

People who humble themselves before God, and draw near to Him to worship Him and pray, spending time in His presence certainly have no trouble confessing their sins because if you have an unconfessed you know it in your heart in your conscience and you won’t be able to enter His presence.

I have no problem confessing my sins, struggles, short comings etc.. before God. That is how a relationship works. I continue to confess, speak the same, acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about my sins.

He will remind you what you need to confess.

When your heart is sensitive to the Spirit, He will help you with these things.

He does and has.

I usually start by confessing any sins I might have done but don’t realize it’s sin. Many things we do naturally, we don’t realize is sin to God. As we grow in our relationship with Him He helps us to change.

How can you confess what you don't even realize is sin? God does help us to change but it is a process. None of us arrive at full maturity overnight.

Knowing that He loves us, and wants us to spend time with Him is always motivating to want to draw near to Him.

The Spirit will lead in these things.

Amen!

 

[Rodger]

Amen. I hope so.

Sleep easy my friend.