Sinless To Be Saved

[Fish153]

Lk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

rev 12:17 Marys spiritual children keep the commandments

Don---- You need to interpret that in context. Let me give you an example. Note what Paul said:

"Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, BLAMELESS.

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

And be found in him, NOT HAVING MINE OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, WHICH IS OF THE LAW, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"(Philippians 3:4-9)

**Note that Paul says that "touching the righteousness which is in the law, BLAMELESS". But note further down he states "NOT HAVING MINE OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS OF THE LAW". When Paul says he was BLAMELESS he is stating that in HUMAN TERMS AND EFFORT he would be considered BLAMELESS. In HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS he would be considered BLAMELESS.

Note what it says in Isaiah on how GOD VIEWS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS: "But we are ALL as an unclean thing, and all OUR righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6)

Do you see? In man's view (and Paul is USING man's view in his statement) he was BLAMELESS. But in the view of God his righteousness was as FILTHY RAGS.

Paul later views himself as he should view himself---not "blameless" but: "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance: that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, OF WHOM I AM CHIEF". (1 Timothy 1: 15)

In Luke 1:6 they were "blameless" in THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS before God. But in God's view they were SINNERS. Or Jesus would not have had to come and die for both of them.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace, why do you pile comment upon comment and passage upon passage to make it very hard for people to discuss your thoughts? Don't you want to discuss them for fear that you might have to change them? You say too much for us to have a meaningful conversation.

Two passagesare a piling upon piling of scripture??

I don't make it difficult for anyone to respond to me.
I don't have THOUGHTS.
I post what the bible has printed and leave it at that.

You think I'm going to change my thoughts?
I really don't think so.

If you don't feel you could have a meaningful conversation, you don't have to repy.

I'm not here to have conversation...
I'm here to post what the New Testament teaches.

If you think my posts are incorrect, you're free to say so.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don---- You need to interpret that in context. Let me give you an example. Note what Paul said:

"Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, BLAMELESS.

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

And be found in him, NOT HAVING MINE OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, WHICH IS OF THE LAW, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"(Philippians 3:4-9)

**Note that Paul says that "touching the righteousness which is in the law, BLAMELESS". But note further down he states "NOT HAVING MINE OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS OF THE LAW". When Paul says he was BLAMELESS he is stating that in HUMAN TERMS he would be considered BLAMELESS. In HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS he would be considered BLAMELESS.

Note what it says in Isaiah on how GOD VIEWS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS: "But we are ALL as an unclean thing, and all OUR righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6)

Do you see? In man's view (and Paul is USING man's view in his statement) he was BLAMELESS. But in the view of God his righteousness was as FILTHY RAGS.

Paul later views himself as he should view himself---not "blameless" but: "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance: that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, OF WHOM I AM CHIEF". (1 Timothy 1: 15)

In Luke 1:6 they were "blameless" in THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS before God. But in God's view they were SINNERS. Or Jesus would not have had to come and die for both of them.

Fish...
Have you been advised that The Law was abolished 2 thousand years ago?

And you really should stop stating that our works are filthy rags to God when all Jesus taught was to do good works.

Paul was a sinner.
§But NOW Paul was a believer in Jesus and HE taught that we are to behave as Christians and obey God.

ALL the NT writers teach us that we are to pursue righteousness...


Maybe Paul disagreed with John and Jesus?

1 John 3:7-10
7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Peter:
1 Peter 2:24
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.


Jesus:
Matthew 5:20
20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Paul teaches that we are to pursue righteousness:


2 Timothy 2:2
2So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
We are to PURSUE righteousness.
It's something we must DO.

 

[Free]

Paul said in Acts 28 , not only did he keep the Law, he also kept the oral law which he called the traditions of the fathers.

Yet, we see that Jesus taught that all foods were clean:

Mar 7:18 And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him,
Mar 7:19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (ESV)

We see that God showed Peter that all foods were clean:

Act 10:12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”
Act 10:14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.”
Act 10:15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” (ESV)

We see that Paul thought all foods were clean:

Rom 14:14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.
Rom 14:15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died.
...
Rom 14:20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. (ESV)

We see that Peter was eating with Gentiles, which also means eating what they ate:

Gal 2:12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. (ESV)

It also seems that Peter and Paul broke the oral law:

Act 10:28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean. (ESV)

 

[GodsGrace]

I gave several, from Jesus's own mouth no less.

NO verse you stated says that FAITH ALONE will save.
They state that we are to BELIEVE.
Believe means something specific.

Which is to put one's faith in Jesus, in John's gospel.

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (ESV)

Joh 2:11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.
...
Joh 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. (ESV)

How does your definition of "believe"--" to OBEY Jesus, to FOLLOW Him...to use Him a our example"--fit with these verses? To me, it can't, and it is abundantly clear that they mean these people put their faith and trust in Jesus.

Correct.
We are to put our faith and trust in Jesus.

Do YOU do as those you trust instruct you to do?
Do YOU do as those you have faith in instruct you to do?

Then you must also do what JESUS instructs us to do.
And NOWHERE in the NT does Jesus state we are to do nothing but He taught that we are to keep His commandments.
John 14:15
15If you love me, you will keep My commandments.

Jesus said to keep His commandments.
It means He left us with some commandments.

Are you saying it's not necessary to do as Jesus taught?

Not at all. Believe has different meanings. It can simply mean to believe something to be true. But it also goes further than that and is sometimes used as a synonym of faith, which is how John often uses it (he doesn't even use "faith").

From M. R. Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament (on John 1:12):

"Believe on (πιστευούσιν εἰς)

The present participle, believing, indicates the present and continuous activity of faith.

Correct. Believing is on-going and we must be believing at our death.
It is NOT a one-time belief that will offer salvation forever...
but our faith must endure to the end.
Matthew 24.13
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Yes. Vincent is right.
Believe is a present and continuous activity of faith.
If we have faith (a noun)....
we believe (a verb)...

The word is used by John, sometimes with the dative case simply meaning to believe a person or thing; i.e., to believe that they are true or speak the truth. . . . To believe in, or on, is more than mere acceptance of a statement. It is so to accept a statement or a person as to rest upon them, to trust them practically; to draw upon and avail one's self of all that is offered to him in them."

Sure.
But every verse that states that we must BELIEVE to be saved...
is not in the dative case.

WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS will be saved.

That is not a mental belief....
but a heart belief.
A belief that instructs us to follow our teacher....Jesus.
To have faith in HIM...
To trust what He teaches.

From A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament (on John 1:12):

"On his name (eis to onoma). Bernard notes pisteuō eis 35 times in John, to put trust in or on. See also Jhn 2:23 and Jhn 3:36 for pisteuō eis to onoma autou. "

I honestly don't know how any believer could not know this.

You agree with me so I don't understand your last remark.

I've posted John 3.36 many times. I agree with you.
We must believe AND obey in order to be saved.

36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

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[GodsGrace]

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Not necessarily. To "believe in the name of Jesus," as is stated several times in John's gospel (which I previously provided) is to believe in all that Jesus is and all that he has done for our salvation. For example:

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Of course Jesus did for us.
But look at your verses:

John 3:16 Whoever BELIEVES ..... is that a mental belief?
John 3:17 THE WORLD will be saved through Him. (Yes. The World is saved through Jesus' sacrifice).
John 3:18 Whoever does not BELIEVE is condemned already....is that a mental belief?

Jesus was a real person that really lived.
It could NOT mean a mental belief....
But BELIEVE as John meant it....a belief that leads to following Jesus.

Jesus Himself said to count the cost before deciding to follow Him:
Not much to count if it's just a mental belief.

Luke 14:28
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’

So, according to your too narrow understanding of "believe"--"to OBEY Jesus, to FOLLOW Him...to use Him a our example"--Jesus is saying here that only works save us. But that is antithetical to what Paul says. So, you have Paul contradicting Jesus.

Free, I am not causing any contradiction in the NT.
I've said that ALL the writers teach that we are to believe in Jesus which means to obey Jesus.
If you think that Jesus is teaching something different than Paul (which some do)...then it is YOU that is causing the conflict.

Paul taught exactly what Jesus taught.

Matthew 7:21 Jesus taught that we are to do the Father's will - ALL that Jesus taught.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Matthew 25:31-46
...Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, ...[etc]

​

Paul taught that we are to do good works (after salvation, of course)

Colossians 3:23-24
. 23Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,
24knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.


Galatians 6:9
9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.


Titus 2:14
14Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

However, what Jesus is clearly saying is that those who don't put their faith in him will perish.

Agreed.

Why would anyone "DO what our teacher, Jesus, taught that we are to do"? Could it be because they believed what he said and put their faith and trust in him? If not, then you're teaching salvation by works, contradicting Paul.

Let's see if we can get this straight.....
We are saved by faith.
AFTER we are saved,,,we are required to do good works.

JESUS taught that if we do NOT ACT on His words,,,we will be like the foolish man who built his house on sand and it got washed away.
Matthew 7.26

His house got washed away.
Because he did not ACT on the words of Jesus.

God does not make requests..
God gives commands.

Jesus said IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDS.

Keep His commands IF we love Him.
If we love Him...we keep His commands.

Doesn't matter how you state it...
we are to keep His commands.

If you want to call this works salvation...
it's fine with me.

Because all the NT writers said we are to do works.

Faith without works is dead.

Of course. What does this have to do with anything?


Here you're again teaching salvation by works, contradicting Paul.

Paul taught good works.
No contradiction.

Works Salvation sounds like dirty words.
Paul and Jesus taught good works.

If God is not obeyed...
we will not be saved.

1 John 2:4
4Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
If we say we know Him...we must keep His commandments.

This is "works salvation"?

Hebrews 10:26
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.


1 John 3:4
4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

Would you agree that not obeying God is a sin?
So why teach that obedience is "works salvation" when it is exactly what God wants?

 

[GodsGrace]

This was in response to: "He is repeating exactly what Jesus taught--salvation is found in believing in the name of Jesus."

What does believing in the name of Jesus mean, and how does that bring us salvation?

It means what I explained a minute ago.

Look at this quote from the article you provided below: "He knew that we "have been" saved (past tense) by faith apart from works." That is exactly what I have stated. The RCC eventually added works onto that, in clear defiance of and objection to Paul.

Works do not save.
And the CC does NOT teach salvation by works.
It teaches salvation by grace through faith....
just like most protestants do.

Imagine that! Basing faith alone on a passage of Scripture which actually teaches faith alone, as opposed to works. Yet, you say that is incorrect.

Faith ALONE is a modern idea that never existed in the early church.
It came about at the Reformation.

The NT does not state anywhere that faith alone saves.
If you add anything to faith,,,then faith alone does not save.

Faith by itself is dead.

You see, if we add obedience to faith...
then faith alone is rejected.

So some have to fight against obedience at all costs.

Problem is that Jesus taught us to be obedient.

This article must have been written by a Catholic, due to the clear straw man against Protestants. It isn't much of a problem (just as there is no problem between Eph. 2:8-9 and Eph. 5:5). It just takes some proper study.

Most Protestants believe good works are necessary for salvation.
I'll post the link again for any that might have missed it: (Pew Research Center)

Ahead of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, a majority of U.S. Protestants, 52 percent, believe that both good deeds and faith are necessary for salvation, a new Pew Research Center poll reports. Meanwhile, 52 percent of the U.S. Protestants polled hold that Christians need the guidance of church teaching and tradition in conjunction with the Bible.
source: https://www.americamagazine.org/fai...tholics-believe-faith-and-works-are-necessary

The solution is that Paul and James were using two different definitions of "justified." I have dealt with this repeatedly in several threads. Paul is talking about "being declared righteous;" James is talking about works that are evidence of having been justified.
https://www.christian-history.org/Early_Church_History_Newsletter-faith-works-and-the-fathers.html

No, that isn't what he is saying, at all. You're divorcing that statement of James from the context. Read the context. He is saying that good works are evidence of an actual saving faith.

I don't see the word EVIDENCE in the statement that James makes.
James is saying exactly what Paul and Jesus taugth:
Faith alone does not exist.
If we have faith in Jesus, we will DO as Jesus taught...
Jesus taught good works.

If we do not obey God...
how can we be saved?

James 2:14-26
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I don't see the idea of evidence in any of the above verses.
James is plainly saying that faith without works is dead,,,it's useless...
without good works,,,our faith is useless.

Not at all. It is you who is pitting Paul against James. Paul is unequivocal in teaching that doing works for salvation is a false gospel. You simply don't understand what I and others are saying.

I understand very well.

I'm saying that God must be obeyed....
and SOME on this thread do not agree.

Also, I NEVER said that works will save us.

Faith saves us.
Works are required from the saved.
Obedience to God is required from the saved.

If we disobey God...
can we remain saved?

God taught good works....
God taught us to obey His commands.

§That means there must be some commands that we are to follow.
This is doing good works.

 

[Free]

NO verse you stated says that FAITH ALONE will save.
They state that we are to BELIEVE.

Which, as I stated, in certain context means to put one's faith in Christ and his work.

Believe means something specific.

As I pointed out, it has a couple of different meanings. Please study deeper on this before making such claims.

From Strong's:

pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

pisteuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing

Correct.
We are to put our faith and trust in Jesus.

Do YOU do as those you trust instruct you to do?
Do YOU do as those you have faith in instruct you to do?

Then you must also do what JESUS instructs us to do.
And NOWHERE in the NT does Jesus state we are to do nothing but He taught that we are to keep His commandments.
John 14:15
15If you love me, you will keep My commandments.

Jesus said to keep His commandments.
It means He left us with some commandments.

How many times must things be repeated before you understand that you're still believing the straw man version of "faith alone" that is provided by Catholicism? I have stated more than once that faith alone is in opposition to works in regards to salvation.

This--"And NOWHERE in the NT does Jesus state we are to do nothing"--has nothing to do with justification, which is the initial point of salvation.

Again:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (ESV)

Joh 2:11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.
...
Joh 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. (ESV)

How does your definition of "believe"--" to OBEY Jesus, to FOLLOW Him...to use Him a our example"--fit with these verses? To me, it can't, and it is abundantly clear that they mean these people put their faith and trust in Jesus.

Are you saying it's not necessary to do as Jesus taught?

Again, not for salvation. Please stop repeatedly asking this question when it has been answered several times already.

Correct. Believing is on-going and we must be believing at our death.
It is NOT a one-time belief that will offer salvation forever...
but our faith must endure to the end.
Matthew 24.13
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Yes. Vincent is right.
Believe is a present and continuous activity of faith.
If we have faith (a noun)....
we believe (a verb)...

Why do you agree when it proves your position to be false? You're contradicting yourself again.

Sure.
But every verse that states that we must BELIEVE to be saved...
is not in the dative case.

WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS will be saved.

That is not a mental belief....
but a heart belief.
A belief that instructs us to follow our teacher....Jesus.
To have faith in HIM...
To trust what He teaches.

Exactly. It means to put one's faith or trust in Jesus. That has continually been my point.

You agree with me so I don't understand your last remark.

I've posted John 3.36 many times. I agree with you.
We must believe AND obey in order to be saved.

36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

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Then, no, we absolutely do not agree, which I have been pointing out repeatedly. This--"We must believe AND obey in order to be saved"--is false. Notice how you chose to put obedience in with salvation when that is not what John says. He simply says "He who believes in the Son has eternal life." "Does not obey" is evidence of unbelief; faith causes obedience (Rom. 1:5). You're pitting John against Jesus (again, see John 3:16, 18).

 

[GodsGrace]

It does in the Catholic Church, perhaps, but not in Scripture.

I've given plenty of scripture that states we are to do good works....
By Jesus
By Paul
By James
By Peter

Don't know what the CC has to do with this.
If they teach good works....they're teaching what Jesus, Paul, James, and Peter taught.

Of course. I have never said otherwise. This is just evidence that you really don't understand what I and others are saying; what the Reformers mean by "faith alone."

I know very well what is meant by
SOLA FIDE

And it's not biblical.
And I've shown why with scripture.

Of course. But you are putting them into conflict. Remember, Paul and James are using two different definitions of "justified."

Already explained.

Because you have made statements that contradict that. You previously stated: "Everyone is saved by faith in God and obedience to God." That is works salvation. That is entirely different than "we're saved by faith FOR good works." Honestly, it seems your theology is all over the place on this issue.

Again...
If you want to call OBEDIENCE TO GOD
"works salvation"
then so be it.

I'm saying that we are to obey God and do as HE taught.

We're saved by faith FOR GOOD WORKS?

Fine.
Then why are we debating this?

Ephesians 2:10 is speaking of AFTER salvation...
just as I am.

Or maybe that is just what Scripture teaches:

Mar 3:28 “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter,
Mar 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— (ESV)

So if we blaspheme the Holy Spirit we will still be saved?
Do you understand what Mark 3:28 means??
Check it out.

Perhaps you're taking what was said out of context.


You have clearly taken that out of context. The context is salvation--"Our salvation rests on the work God has done. Not the works we do.. that's the Gospel." What you are quoting from follows that statement:

"Do you put your trust in Christ?
Or do you put your faith in your good works and obedience? You cannot do both!
One choice leads to salvation then other to Hell."

The point there is clearly that we are either saved by "trust in Christ" or "faith in your good works and obedience." It has nothing to do with doing good works after we are saved, out of obedience. Please, keep things in context.

Wrong dichotomy.
It takes both.
We are saved by Faith.
We are saved by obedience to God.
God commands good works for His Kingdom on earth.

Jesus taught good behavior.
See Matthew 5:3-9

If we have faith but do NOT have obedience, the wrath of §God will be upon us.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

I have strong reason to believe that you took this out of context as well, although, certainly some might believe that. But, they are wrong to believe that.

But, it is not at all "consistent among the OSAS believers," having absolutely nothing to do with "this belief system." I'm pretty sure my whole denomination believes OSAS, yet I know of not one person in my church that believes this. It is a straw man.

Your denomination doesn't believe in OSAS,
your denomination believes in P ot S.
Quite a difference.

I agree.


How is that a straw man? I'm saying what Scripture teaches, not what someone else is arguing.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. (ESV)

(Notice how many times Paul says it is by or through faith. See also the entirety of chapter 4.)

I'm sure you know that Paul is speaking about the works of THE LAW,,,,,and not good works, which he taught that we must do. I've posted enough verses. Romans 3:28

Everyone has been saved by faith.
Are they not required to do good works? (not works of the Law).

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Justification.
Good.
What about sanctification?

If we lose sanctification through disobedience to God (John 3:36)
are we still justified?

…
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. (ESV)

Happy to hear that you believe that the one act of righteousness leads to justification and life FOR ALL MEN.

Why are we discussing Adam?

(Again, "by faith.")

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (ESV)

Correct.
The free gift of life is IN Christ Jesus.

Please see John 15:2
Those IN JESUS that do not bear fruit,
will be taken away by God.

2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

A person IN JESUS is a saved person.
If a saved person does not bear fruit...
God takes him away, from the life giving vine.

No attachment to the vine...
no life.

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (ESV)

Works of the Law Free.
I know you know better.

Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Ditto.

...
Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. (ESV)

Ditto.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

Agreed.
Before we were born again. we were sinners.
This proves nothing of what I'm stating.

Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is the debate. The problem is that you are saying contradictory things.


For salvation? No. That would be the very same thing as saying our works save us, which is the very thing you just denied--"Of course we're saved by faith."

Look again at what Jesus said, which you posted:

John 14:15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

We obey out of love; our obedience is evidence of our having been justified.


You're being so contradictory, that I don't even know what you actually believe. There is no straw man on my part. Again, to quote your post:

'"I [which is you] said: WE MUST OBEY GOD.

You [which is me] said: NOT FOR SALVATION.

So, IOW....we can be saved but not have to obey God?"'

You are saying that my claim that we do not obey God for salvation means that "we can be saved but not have to obey God." However, as I pointed out, you also said: "FOR salvation obedience is NOT necessary." That is exactly what I said. So, where is the straw man, when I've simply quoted you?

And, again, as I previously pointed out, you previously stated: "Everyone is saved by faith in God and obedience to God." You're saying here that faith and works save us, but then up above you say "We CANNOT be saved by good works."

You really need to make up your mind. Is it faith or faith plus works that save? According to the Bible, it's just faith, with good works being the evidence.


You may think so, but you're continually contradicting yourself, so it really doesn't seem that it's as clear to you as you think.


See, again the contradiction.


I have repeatedly answered that we are to obey, out of love; it is the evidence of one's faith. If it's obedience not done out of love, but only because God commands obedience, then that is straight salvation by works without faith.


Not for salvation.


Incorrect. To say that "our obedience keeps us saved," is no different than saying "our obedience saves us."


Just like that? Sin is disobedience. Are you perfect and never sin? Or are you saved one minute and not saved the next and then saved again based on your works? That would be salvation by works and not faith.

This is nonsense and I'll not reply.

It does in John's gospel. And Paul says the same, repeatedly. Like here, for instance:

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)

No works. Just faith.


See, you clearly don't understand what "faith alone" means. These are Catholic arguments.


My point is that you're using arguments straight out of Catholicism and ignoring or misunderstanding what Protestants believe.

I'm posting scripture from the bible.
And It would be nice if you stopped telling me I don't understand what faith alone means.

 

[GodsGrace]

Which, as I stated, in certain context means to put one's faith in Christ and his work.


As I pointed out, it has a couple of different meanings. Please study deeper on this before making such claims.

From Strong's:

pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

pisteuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing

It means exactly what I've been saying.
No need to study this further.
If you place confidence in Jesus....
you, I mean one...
one should DO what Jesus taught and obey Him.

How many times must things be repeated before you understand that you're still believing the straw man version of "faith alone" that is provided by Catholicism? I have stated more than once that faith alone is in opposition to works in regards to salvation.

And I'm saying that works do not save.
Faith is necessary for salvation.

AFTER salvation...
works DO save because not doing them implies disobedience to §God.

Disobedience will bring the wrath of God upon a person.

This--"And NOWHERE in the NT does Jesus state we are to do nothing"--has nothing to do with justification, which is the initial point of salvation.

Correct.
But you're leaving out sanctification....
a life-long process.

Again:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (ESV)

Joh 2:11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.
...
Joh 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. (ESV)

How does your definition of "believe"--" to OBEY Jesus, to FOLLOW Him...to use Him a our example"--fit with these verses? To me, it can't, and it is abundantly clear that they mean these people put their faith and trust in Jesus.

His disciples BELIEVED IN HIM does not fit with the very definition you give up above??
BELIEVE IN HIS NAME....just means a mental belief?

It does NOT mean to learn from Him, to follow Him...
Is not this exactly what the Apostles did?
Did they not learn from Jesus?
Did they not follow Him....even literally? (and in moral teachings).

I can't convince you of this because I'm not here to change your mind...
just here to state what the bible teaches.
It teaches obedience to God.
It teaches good works.

Difficult for me to understand how anyone could reject this.

Again, not for salvation. Please stop repeatedly asking this question when it has been answered several times already.

Please get passed this.
I'm speaking about AFTER salvation.

Those not saved are not required to obey God.
WE ARE!

Why do you agree when it proves your position to be false? You're contradicting yourself again.


Exactly. It means to put one's faith or trust in Jesus. That has continually been my point.

Well then do it ....
teach what Jesus taught.

Good works.
Obedience.

Then, no, we absolutely do not agree, which I have been pointing out repeatedly. This--"We must believe AND obey in order to be saved"--is false. Notice how you chose to put obedience in with salvation when that is not what John says. He simply says "He who believes in the Son has eternal life." "Does not obey" is evidence of unbelief; faith causes obedience (Rom. 1:5). You're pitting John against Jesus (again, see John 3:16, 18).

NO,,,you're putting your own words into John 3:36
No talk of evidence.

John 3.36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

(why would an unbeliever have to obey God?? The writer is speaking about believers)

I know that we have ingrained in us what we are taught.
John 3:36 does not speak about evidence....
it clearly states that we must believe to be saved....
and if we do not obey, the wrath of God is upon us.

I used to think like you do...
I used to tell persons that all we have to do is believe and didn't have to do anything.
But in studying more and more, I had to leave this idea behind.
Because some words in Greek ARE important, and believe is one of them.

 

[Free]

Of course Jesus did for us.
But look at your verses:

John 3:16 Whoever BELIEVES ..... is that a mental belief?
John 3:17 THE WORLD will be saved through Him. (Yes. The World is saved through Jesus' sacrifice).
John 3:18 Whoever does not BELIEVE is condemned already....is that a mental belief?

Jesus was a real person that really lived.
It could NOT mean a mental belief....

I know. I have repeatedly stated that it is to put one's faith and trust in Jesus and his work.

But BELIEVE as John meant it....a belief that leads to following Jesus.

Jesus Himself said to count the cost before deciding to follow Him:

Of course. But what sort of "belief . . . leads to following Jesus"? Faith. You're simply not understanding that it requires faith; faith comes first, then comes obedience and following Jesus. It's the very same as:

Mat 12:34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Mat 12:35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. (ESV)

Faith comes first. Then comes speaking, and doing, out of that faith. Action is based on faith.

Free, I am not causing any contradiction in the NT.
I've said that ALL the writers teach that we are to believe in Jesus which means to obey Jesus.

No, in regards to salvation, it means only to put one's faith and trust in Jesus and his work.

If you think that Jesus is teaching something different than Paul (which some do)...then it is YOU that is causing the conflict.

I have clearly stated that Jesus and Paul teach the same thing, but it is you that is making them say different things, just as you did with Jesus and John.

Paul taught exactly what Jesus taught.

Yes, I know.

Matthew 7:21 Jesus taught that we are to do the Father's will - ALL that Jesus taught.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Matthew 25:31-46
...Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, ...[etc]

Which is what? Evidence of faith. If it doesn't, then you are teaching salvation by works and Christ's work on the cross is entirely unnecessary.

Paul taught that we are to do good works (after salvation, of course)

Is that what you believe?

Let's see if we can get this straight.....
We are saved by faith.

Is that what you believe? Because you also say "We must believe AND obey in order to be saved."

You make two contradictory statements: "We must believe AND obey in order to be saved" and "We are saved by faith." Both of those statements cannot be true at the same time and in the same sense.

AFTER we are saved,,,we are required to do good works.

No, I wouldn't say "we are required to do good works." As I have repeatedly stated, good works are evidence of our having been saved and we do them out of love. To do them out of requirement is to do them out of duty, but that is not love.

JESUS taught that if we do NOT ACT on His words,,,we will be like the foolish man who built his house on sand and it got washed away.
Matthew 7.26

His house got washed away.
Because he did not ACT on the words of Jesus.

God does not make requests..
God gives commands.

Jesus said IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDS.

Keep His commands IF we love Him.
If we love Him...we keep His commands.

Doesn't matter how you state it...
we are to keep His commands.

If you want to call this works salvation...
it's fine with me.

Because all the NT writers said we are to do works.

Faith without works is dead.

Paul taught good works.
No contradiction.

Works Salvation sounds like dirty words.
Paul and Jesus taught good works.

Not for salvation they didn't, otherwise they taught salvation by works and Jesus's own death and resurrection weren't needed. The Law proved that no one could save themselves by works. Again, you're contradicting yourself. Paul and Jesus (and John) don't contradict, but your understanding of what they say makes them contradict.

If God is not obeyed...
we will not be saved.

If God is not obeyed, if there is no desire to obey, then a person isn't saved to begin with. Again, good works are the evidence of having been saved (justified).

1 John 2:4
4Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
If we say we know Him...we must keep His commandments.

This is "works salvation"?

Hebrews 10:26
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.


1 John 3:4
4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

Would you agree that not obeying God is a sin?
So why teach that obedience is "works salvation" when it is exactly what God wants?

I'm saying that because that is what you are saying--"We must believe AND obey in order to be saved."

 

[GodsGrace]

I know. I have repeatedly stated that it is to put one's faith and trust in Jesus and his work.


Of course. But what sort of "belief . . . leads to following Jesus"? Faith. You're simply not understanding that it requires faith; faith comes first, then comes obedience and following Jesus. It's the very same as:

Mat 12:34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Mat 12:35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. (ESV)

Of course faith comes first!
Without faith obedience to God is not necessary...
the unsaved are not required to obey §God.

Faith comes first. Then comes speaking, and doing, out of that faith. Action is based on faith.


No, in regards to salvation, it means only to put one's faith and trust in Jesus and his work.

And if we put our faith and trust in Jesus we will do as He taught.

I have clearly stated that Jesus and Paul teach the same thing, but it is you that is making them say different things, just as you did with Jesus and John.

Actually, if you go back and check...I posted scripture that proves they taught exactly the same.

I'm not one of those that thinks Jesus and James and Peter taught works
and Paul taught grace.

They all taught the same or we could throw out the NT.

Yes, I know.


Which is what? Evidence of faith. If it doesn't, then you are teaching salvation by works and Christ's work on the cross is entirely unnecessary.

Jesus' work on the cross was necessary.
Our discussion has nothing to do with it.
§Because Jesus died for us means we ARE to obey Him,,,
it's the least we could do.

Is that what you believe?


Is that what you believe? Because you also say "We must believe AND obey in order to be saved."

Yes. We must believe and obey to be saved.
Just as the passages I've posted teach.

You make two contradictory statements: "We must believe AND obey in order to be saved" and "We are saved by faith." Both of those statements cannot be true at the same time and in the same sense.

Here's the problem---maybe.
I do not believe in OSAS....
So,,, in order to be saved, we must have faith in God.
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

In the very next verse it states that Noah built the ark.
He obeyed God and was saved.

We must CONTINUE to believe in God and obey Him.

No, I wouldn't say "we are required to do good works." As I have repeatedly stated, good works are evidence of our having been saved and we do them out of love. To do them out of requirement is to do them out of duty, but that is not love.

There you have it Free.
You said.
"No, I wouldn't say we are required to do good works".

I believe we are and is what the NT teaches.

Not for salvation they didn't, otherwise they taught salvation by works and Jesus's own death and resurrection weren't needed. The Law proved that no one could save themselves by works. Again, you're contradicting yourself. Paul and Jesus (and John) don't contradict, but your understanding of what they say makes them contradict.

I believe I showed that all the writers agreed with each other.
They all taught faith in God and doing good works.
Just as Jesus commanded.

If God is not obeyed, if there is no desire to obey, then a person isn't saved to begin with. Again, good works are the evidence of having been saved (justified).

That's not what John 15:2 states.

You are eisegeting Free.

The branches IN JESUS will be cut off if no fruit is produced.

Ditto for the fig tree that got an extra year to produce fruit or be cut down.

I'm saying that because that is what you are saying--"We must believe AND obey in order to be saved."

Yes.
This is what I'm saying.
We must BELIEVE AND OBEY in order to be saved.


Now, we're not going to agree on this...
and you know me - I'm not going to go on for page after page.

In Romans 2:5-6 Paul states that God will render to each according to their deeds.
To those who persevere in doing good....glory, honor and eternal life.
Those who do good -----> eternal life.

Those who are selfish, unrighteous and do not obey the truth ------> wrath and indignation.

Now look....in John 5:28-29 Jesus states exactly the same!

Jesus and Paul agree on all.


In 2 Thess 2:13 Paul states that we are sanctified by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Sanctification means becoming more and more like Jesus....
if we disobey, are we becoming more and more like Jesus?


Last verse:

Colossians 3:9-10
5Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
6For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
7and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
8But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
9Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
10and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him—

Put aside.....anger, malice, abusive speech.
These are behaviors...it's how we're to act.

Put on the new self....renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him.


In Matthew 6, Jesus teaches how to pray.
"Your will be done
on earth
as it is in heaven"

What is the will of the Father?
How can earth be more like heaven?

By behaving as God would want us to.
By creating a better world.
This is done through obedience to the teaching of Jesus and all the NT writers.

Late here.
'night.

 

[Free]

It means what I explained a minute ago.

Where? I didn't see any explanation.

Works do not save.
And the CC does NOT teach salvation by works.
It teaches salvation by grace through faith....
just like most protestants do.

And, yet, you have stated more than once: "We must believe AND obey in order to be saved."

Faith ALONE is a modern idea that never existed in the early church.
It came about at the Reformation.

And, again, you contradict yourself. You literally just said: "And the CC does NOT teach salvation by works. It teaches salvation by grace through faith;" but that is exactly what is meant by "faith alone." How is it that despite myself and others repeatedly pointing this out that you still don't understand (and you're not the only one)?

The NT does not state anywhere that faith alone saves.

Then why does the CC teach that, according to what you said above? It does, repeatedly, and I have given many passages which show that, which you have left completely unaddressed.

If you add anything to faith,,,then faith alone does not save.

And you continually add works, right?

Faith by itself is dead.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with "faith alone" regarding salvation. Please, please try and understand what that means before railing against it. You are using all the exact same arguments that one of our Catholic posters has uses; it actually seems like you're just cutting and pasting from his posts.

You see, if we add obedience to faith...
then faith alone is rejected.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.

So some have to fight against obedience at all costs.

Yet, I don't see a single person here doing that.

Problem is that Jesus taught us to be obedient.

That isn't a problem for anyone here.

Most Protestants believe good works are necessary for salvation.
I'll post the link again for any that might have missed it: (Pew Research Center)

Ahead of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, a majority of U.S. Protestants, 52 percent, believe that both good deeds and faith are necessary for salvation, a new Pew Research Center poll reports. Meanwhile, 52 percent of the U.S. Protestants polled hold that Christians need the guidance of church teaching and tradition in conjunction with the Bible.
source: https://www.americamagazine.org/fai...tholics-believe-faith-and-works-are-necessary

A majority of those who claim to be Christian in the U.S. do not hold a Christian worldview or to biblical beliefs. Hence why the U.S. is full of cultural Christians, or, to use their own pejorative term, CINOs.

 

[Free]

I don't see the word EVIDENCE in the statement that James makes.
James is saying exactly what Paul and Jesus taugth:
Faith alone does not exist.
If we have faith in Jesus, we will DO as Jesus taught...
Jesus taught good works.

If we do not obey God...
how can we be saved?

James 2:14-26
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I don't see the idea of evidence in any of the above verses.
James is plainly saying that faith without works is dead,,,it's useless...
without good works,,,our faith is useless.

I understand very well.

No, you're still not understanding. The very definition of "justified" includes:

dikaioō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Paul, in Romans 4, where he refers to the same passage in Genesis as James, uses definition 3. James, however, uses definition 2.

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, (ESV)

Paul is clearly saying that Abraham was not justified--declared righteous--by works, but by believing in God. The whole of chapter 4 and beyond bears this out.

James, on the other hand, is talking about works being the evidence ("shown to be righteous") of already having a saving faith. The context is this:

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
...
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
...
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (ESV)

When James says that Abraham was justified by works--being willing to offer up Isaac on the altar--he is not meaning that he was declared righteous by his works. Rather James is saying that Abraham's works showed, exhibited, and evinced the righteousness that he already had by faith some twenty years earlier.

Look at the appropriate passage to understand verse 23:

Gen 15:3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”
Gen 15:4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. (ESV)

What did Abraham believe which was counted to him as righteousness? The promise of numerous offspring. He believed what God said and it "was counted to him as righteousness." It wasn't the willingness to sacrifice Isaac on the altar that was counted to him as righteousness, as that what around 20 years later. But, what does James say about that incident? That "Abraham was justified by works." Why does James bring that up? To support his initial argument: "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (2:17, ESV).

So, what is James saying? He is saying that Abraham believed God's promise, putting his faith in God, and it "was counted to him as righteousness." Then, some 20 years later, God tells him to sacrifice his son, which he is willing to do. It is about that that James asks, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works?". What does his obedience, that willingness to sacrifice his son, show? That the faith he had in God's promise was genuine.

James is saying that Abraham's work proved that his faith was genuine; it vindicated his faith. If he wasn't willing to sacrifice Isaac, it would have shown that he didn't really have faith. But it proved his faith and his faith then produced the work. That is what James means by "justification"--prove or vindicate, which is another meaning.

So, James is not at all saying anything against justification (in the sense of salvation, to be declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone. He is saying something different--that works prove one has true saving faith, which is to say, that they have already been declared righteous.

Again, if James meant that Abraham was made righteous by his deeds, he would be in direct contradiction to Paul. James is very clearly making the point that no works is evidence of a dead faith, hence its opposite--words are evidence of a true faith.

Please, please do deeper biblical study on this issue. It seems that you are being led astray by Catholic teaching on this, which also includes a straw man against the Protestant belief.

I'm saying that God must be obeyed....
and SOME on this thread do not agree.

Not a single person has disagreed, that I have seen. I have shown that you completely misunderstood one person, by taking them out of context.

Also, I NEVER said that works will save us.

You have, a few times; I provided the quotes.

Faith saves us.

Exactly! We are justified by faith alone. That is precisely what is meant by "faith alone"--it is opposed to works for salvation. You're again contradicting your arguments against faith alone, such as the one you posted above--"Faith alone does not exist." You don't understand what is meant by "faith alone" and so are continually contradicting yourself. Why rail so hard against something you don't understand?

 

[GodsGrace]

Where? I didn't see any explanation.


And, yet, you have stated more than once: "We must believe AND obey in order to be saved."


And, again, you contradict yourself. You literally just said: "And the CC does NOT teach salvation by works. It teaches salvation by grace through faith;" but that is exactly what is meant by "faith alone." How is it that despite myself and others repeatedly pointing this out that you still don't understand (and you're not the only one)?


Then why does the CC teach that, according to what you said above? It does, repeatedly, and I have given many passages which show that, which you have left completely unaddressed.


And you continually add works, right?


Which has absolutely nothing to do with "faith alone" regarding salvation. Please, please try and understand what that means before railing against it. You are using all the exact same arguments that one of our Catholic posters has uses; it actually seems like you're just cutting and pasting from his posts.


Which has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.


Yet, I don't see a single person here doing that.


That isn't a problem for anyone here.


A majority of those who claim to be Christian in the U.S. do not hold a Christian worldview or to biblical beliefs. Hence why the U.S. is full of cultural Christians, or, to use their own pejorative term, CINOs.

You don't like the statistics, so you reject it.
I know what SOLA FIDE means.
Do YOU know what it means?
I'm beginning to doubt it.

I'm posting from scripture.
If the CC agrees,,,I'm happy that it does.

Yes. I add works because that's all Jesus and Paul spoke of.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, you're still not understanding. The very definition of "justified" includes:

dikaioō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Paul, in Romans 4, where he refers to the same passage in Genesis as James, uses definition 3. James, however, uses definition 2.

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, (ESV)

Paul is clearly saying that Abraham was not justified--declared righteous--by works, but by believing in God. The whole of chapter 4 and beyond bears this out.

James, on the other hand, is talking about works being the evidence ("shown to be righteous") of already having a saving faith. The context is this:

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
...
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
...
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (ESV)

When James says that Abraham was justified by works--being willing to offer up Isaac on the altar--he is not meaning that he was declared righteous by his works. Rather James is saying that Abraham's works showed, exhibited, and evinced the righteousness that he already had by faith some twenty years earlier.

Look at the appropriate passage to understand verse 23:

Gen 15:3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”
Gen 15:4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. (ESV)

What did Abraham believe which was counted to him as righteousness? The promise of numerous offspring. He believed what God said and it "was counted to him as righteousness." It wasn't the willingness to sacrifice Isaac on the altar that was counted to him as righteousness, as that what around 20 years later. But, what does James say about that incident? That "Abraham was justified by works." Why does James bring that up? To support his initial argument: "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (2:17, ESV).

So, what is James saying? He is saying that Abraham believed God's promise, putting his faith in God, and it "was counted to him as righteousness." Then, some 20 years later, God tells him to sacrifice his son, which he is willing to do. It is about that that James asks, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works?". What does his obedience, that willingness to sacrifice his son, show? That the faith he had in God's promise was genuine.

James is saying that Abraham's work proved that his faith was genuine; it vindicated his faith. If he wasn't willing to sacrifice Isaac, it would have shown that he didn't really have faith. But it proved his faith and his faith then produced the work. That is what James means by "justification"--prove or vindicate, which is another meaning.

So, James is not at all saying anything against justification (in the sense of salvation, to be declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone. He is saying something different--that works prove one has true saving faith, which is to say, that they have already been declared righteous.

Again, if James meant that Abraham was made righteous by his deeds, he would be in direct contradiction to Paul. James is very clearly making the point that no works is evidence of a dead faith, hence its opposite--words are evidence of a true faith.

Please, please do deeper biblical study on this issue. It seems that you are being led astray by Catholic teaching on this, which also includes a straw man against the Protestant belief.


Not a single person has disagreed, that I have seen. I have shown that you completely misunderstood one person, by taking them out of context.


You have, a few times; I provided the quotes.


Exactly! We are justified by faith alone. That is precisely what is meant by "faith alone"--it is opposed to works for salvation. You're again contradicting your arguments against faith alone, such as the one you posted above--"Faith alone does not exist." You don't understand what is meant by "faith alone" and so are continually contradicting yourself. Why rail so hard against something you don't understand?

You seem to be obsessed with the CC.

How would you explain sola fide?

Why are YOU railing against a church that does not even teach what you THINK it teaches?
Why not just respond with scripture that states that good works are NOT NECESSARY for salvation....?
Because that's what it would take after all the scripture I've posted.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, you're still not understanding. The very definition of "justified" includes:

dikaioō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Right.
So which do you agree with?
Are we rendered righteous
or
Are we declared righteous?

According to Thayer's, we could choose.

Paul, in Romans 4, where he refers to the same passage in Genesis as James, uses definition 3. James, however, uses definition 2.

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, (ESV)

Paul is clearly saying that Abraham was not justified--declared righteous--by works, but by believing in God. The whole of chapter 4 and beyond bears this out.

James, on the other hand, is talking about works being the evidence ("shown to be righteous") of already having a saving faith. The context is this:

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
...
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
...
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (ESV)

When James says that Abraham was justified by works--being willing to offer up Isaac on the altar--he is not meaning that he was declared righteous by his works. Rather James is saying that Abraham's works showed, exhibited, and evinced the righteousness that he already had by faith some twenty years earlier.

Look at the appropriate passage to understand verse 23:

Gen 15:3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”
Gen 15:4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. (ESV)

What did Abraham believe which was counted to him as righteousness? The promise of numerous offspring. He believed what God said and it "was counted to him as righteousness." It wasn't the willingness to sacrifice Isaac on the altar that was counted to him as righteousness, as that what around 20 years later. But, what does James say about that incident? That "Abraham was justified by works." Why does James bring that up? To support his initial argument: "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (2:17, ESV).

So, what is James saying? He is saying that Abraham believed God's promise, putting his faith in God, and it "was counted to him as righteousness." Then, some 20 years later, God tells him to sacrifice his son, which he is willing to do. It is about that that James asks, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works?". What does his obedience, that willingness to sacrifice his son, show? That the faith he had in God's promise was genuine.

James is saying that Abraham's work proved that his faith was genuine; it vindicated his faith. If he wasn't willing to sacrifice Isaac, it would have shown that he didn't really have faith. But it proved his faith and his faith then produced the work. That is what James means by "justification"--prove or vindicate, which is another meaning.

So, James is not at all saying anything against justification (in the sense of salvation, to be declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone. He is saying something different--that works prove one has true saving faith, which is to say, that they have already been declared righteous.

Again, if James meant that Abraham was made righteous by his deeds, he would be in direct contradiction to Paul. James is very clearly making the point that no works is evidence of a dead faith, hence its opposite--words are evidence of a true faith.

Please, please do deeper biblical study on this issue. It seems that you are being led astray by Catholic teaching on this, which also includes a straw man against the Protestant belief.


Not a single person has disagreed, that I have seen. I have shown that you completely misunderstood one person, by taking them out of context.


You have, a few times; I provided the quotes.


Exactly! We are justified by faith alone. That is precisely what is meant by "faith alone"--it is opposed to works for salvation. You're again contradicting your arguments against faith alone, such as the one you posted above--"Faith alone does not exist." You don't understand what is meant by "faith alone" and so are continually contradicting yourself. Why rail so hard against something you don't understand?

 

[GodsGrace]

No, you're still not understanding. The very definition of "justified" includes:

dikaioō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Paul, in Romans 4, where he refers to the same passage in Genesis as James, uses definition 3. James, however, uses definition 2.

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, (ESV)

Paul is clearly saying that Abraham was not justified--declared righteous--by works, but by believing in God. The whole of chapter 4 and beyond bears this out.

James, on the other hand, is talking about works being the evidence ("shown to be righteous") of already having a saving faith. The context is this:

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
...
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
...
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (ESV)

When James says that Abraham was justified by works--being willing to offer up Isaac on the altar--he is not meaning that he was declared righteous by his works. Rather James is saying that Abraham's works showed, exhibited, and evinced the righteousness that he already had by faith some twenty years earlier.

Look at the appropriate passage to understand verse 23:

Gen 15:3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”
Gen 15:4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. (ESV)

What did Abraham believe which was counted to him as righteousness? The promise of numerous offspring. He believed what God said and it "was counted to him as righteousness." It wasn't the willingness to sacrifice Isaac on the altar that was counted to him as righteousness, as that what around 20 years later. But, what does James say about that incident? That "Abraham was justified by works." Why does James bring that up? To support his initial argument: "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead" (2:17, ESV).

20 years later?
Abraham always obeyed God.
Did he not leave his home when he was told to?
You stated that Abraham already had righteousness 20 years sooner.
Why was he righteous?
Just by FAITH ALONE?
But you say faith alone does not mean faith alone.
Please explain.

But I have to leave.

So, what is James saying? He is saying that Abraham believed God's promise, putting his faith in God, and it "was counted to him as righteousness." Then, some 20 years later, God tells him to sacrifice his son, which he is willing to do. It is about that that James asks, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works?". What does his obedience, that willingness to sacrifice his son, show? That the faith he had in God's promise was genuine.

James is saying that Abraham's work proved that his faith was genuine; it vindicated his faith. If he wasn't willing to sacrifice Isaac, it would have shown that he didn't really have faith. But it proved his faith and his faith then produced the work. That is what James means by "justification"--prove or vindicate, which is another meaning.

So, James is not at all saying anything against justification (in the sense of salvation, to be declared righteous) by grace alone, through faith alone. He is saying something different--that works prove one has true saving faith, which is to say, that they have already been declared righteous.

Again, if James meant that Abraham was made righteous by his deeds, he would be in direct contradiction to Paul. James is very clearly making the point that no works is evidence of a dead faith, hence its opposite--words are evidence of a true faith.

Please, please do deeper biblical study on this issue. It seems that you are being led astray by Catholic teaching on this, which also includes a straw man against the Protestant belief.


Not a single person has disagreed, that I have seen. I have shown that you completely misunderstood one person, by taking them out of context.


You have, a few times; I provided the quotes.


Exactly! We are justified by faith alone. That is precisely what is meant by "faith alone"--it is opposed to works for salvation. You're again contradicting your arguments against faith alone, such as the one you posted above--"Faith alone does not exist." You don't understand what is meant by "faith alone" and so are continually contradicting yourself. Why rail so hard against something you don't understand?

 

[onlysaved]

Fish...
Have you been advised that The Law was abolished 2 thousand years ago?

And you really should stop stating that our works are filthy rags to God when all Jesus taught was to do good works.

Paul was a sinner.
§But NOW Paul was a believer in Jesus and HE taught that we are to behave as Christians and obey God.

ALL the NT writers teach us that we are to pursue righteousness...


Maybe Paul disagreed with John and Jesus?

1 John 3:7-10
7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Peter:
1 Peter 2:24
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.


Jesus:
Matthew 5:20
20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Paul teaches that we are to pursue righteousness:


2 Timothy 2:2
2So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
We are to PURSUE righteousness.
It's something we must DO

Yes Paul taught how we ought to behave. He also taught theology and part of Paul's theology is that we even after being saved are a mess in regards to sin. Ultimately our mess is cleaned up and one day we'll experience that reality, however while on earth we suffer against and sometimes through our sinful nature.