Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

[George Muller]

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

What was Paul speaking of being saved from in the context of this letter specifically?

Ro 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Ro 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I think this would sum it up pretty well.

 

[gr8grace]

George, this has been addressed. The word places is "NOT" in the Greek texts, it was added by the translators. Heavenly is an adjective, it's being used as a substantive, is in the neuter gender and has the definite article. The neuter gender indicates things, not places. It should read 'made us to sit together in the heavenly things.'

Well you just replaced "things" for "places" and tried to explain away the word; "heaven" which is not a adjective but a noun.
epouraniov epouranios, ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
from 1909 and 3772; above the sky:--celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high
the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky

The word "together" was used three times in Eph 2:5-6. It is describing our union with Christ in being "quickened" (Eph 2:5), "raised" (this verse), and seated "in heavenly places" (this verse). None of these things are possible on our own. It is only through our union with Christ that any of this is attainable. Our victory in the Christian life is dependent on our dependency on Christ and not on ourselves. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to live for Christ. Instead, we need to recognize our weaknesses and let Him live through us.
"Made us sit" (this verse), "raised" (Eph 1:20 and this verse), and "quickened" (Eph 2:1 and 5) are all in the aorist tense. This indicates something that God has already accomplished in Christ, not something that is off in the future.

I'm sorry George but you're incorrect. "Heavenly" is an adjective not a noun, that why it has an "ly" on the end. Here are the morphological codes.

ἐπουράνιος adjective normal dative neuter plural no degree from ἐπουράνιος

Notice it is an adjective in the neuter gender. It's being used as a substantive and in the neuter gender means things, not places.

I agree Butch. BUT the context of the Verse is UNION WITH CHRIST and SEATED WITH HIM. Where is Christ RIGHT NOW? IN HEAVEN, heavenly things INCLUDE where Jesus is.

 

[Grappler]

Ever hear of a hyperbole? Paul is speaking hyperbolically when he said that we are sitting together in heaven with Jesus. How do I know that? From rightly dividing the word.

What? So if you run into a scripture that goes against your doctrine, just call it "hyperbole" Was it "hyperbole'' when Christ died for our sins and was raised?
What else do you call "hyperbole" Gods love? Gods grace? Gods justice? Gods power?

Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

No this is biblical fact!

So it appears that you don't know what a hyperbole is. So it is a biblical fact that as Paul wrote Ephesians he was sitting in heaven??? Wow. So let me get this straight. Paul wrote Ephesians from heaven and Lazarus had a conversation with a man burning in hell while he sat on Abraham's lap???

Well Im glad the scriptures seem to be a joke to you? Do you understand what the word "mystery" means?
and many things that Paul writes are hard to understand, just as he said in this same book.
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

You do understand that a believer is saved in spirit not in flesh? And Paul is teaching the "mystery" of the gospel throughout his epistles, and even teaches this very truth here and in other epistles.
So you may not understand? It could be be that instead of trying to prove the bible is not true, if some would spend that same time trying to understand and believe the bible, many would be able to understand the scriptures as they should.

You said "well I am glad that scriptures seem to be a joke to you?" This statement is not very clear since you added the ? mark. Are you asking me if scriptures are a joke to me or are you taking it upon yourself to tell me how I view scripture? It is a "mystery" to me how you like to ignore certain scripture and then twist other scripture...well actually it is not a mystery to me why you do it... people like you have been doing that for centuries. Don't you mean people should spend time trying to understand the bible as YOU want them too, George?

 

[George Muller]

So it appears that you don't know what a hyperbole is. So it is a biblical fact that as Paul wrote Ephesians he was sitting in heaven??? Wow. So let me get this straight. Paul wrote Ephesians from heaven and Lazarus had a conversation with a man burning in hell while he sat on Abraham's lap???

Well Im glad the scriptures seem to be a joke to you? Do you understand what the word "mystery" means?
and many things that Paul writes are hard to understand, just as he said in this same book.
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

You do understand that a believer is saved in spirit not in flesh? And Paul is teaching the "mystery" of the gospel throughout his epistles, and even teaches this very truth here and in other epistles.
So you may not understand? It could be be that instead of trying to prove the bible is not true, if some would spend that same time trying to understand and believe the bible, many would be able to understand the scriptures as they should.

You said "well I am glad that scriptures seem to be a joke to you?" This statement is not very clear since you added the ? mark. Are you asking me if scriptures are a joke to me or are you taking it upon yourself to tell me how I view scripture? It is a "mystery" to me how you like to ignore certain scripture and then twist other scripture...well actually it is not a mystery to me why you do it... people like you have been doing that for centuries. Don't you mean people should spend time trying to understand the bible as YOU want them too, George?

The clear reading of the scriptures, in any translation, proves the simple and plain point I was making. Not ignoring anything, not twisting anything but just believeing the clear intentions of the words.

Eph 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (ASV) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (BBE) So that we came back from death with him, and are seated with him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (DBY) and has raised [us] up together, and has made [us] sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MKJV) and has raised [us] up together and made [us] sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MNT) together with him He raised us from the dead, and together with Christ Jesus seated us in the heavenly realm,
Eph 2:6 (NKJV) and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (Oracl) and has raised us up together, and has set us down together in heavenly places with Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (RSV) and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (TCNT) And, through our union with Christ Jesus, God raised us with him, and caused us to sit with him on high,
Eph 2:6 (WEB) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (WNT) raised us with Him from the dead, and enthroned us with Him in the heavenly realms as being in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (YLT) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

 

[Eugene]

Lazarus had a conversation with a man burning in hell while he sat on Abraham's lap???

Do you really think Lazarus was said to have spoke? Using your hyperbole, I'd sure be interested in your interpretation of Luke 16:19-31. ;)

 

[Grappler]

So it appears that you don't know what a hyperbole is. So it is a biblical fact that as Paul wrote Ephesians he was sitting in heaven??? Wow. So let me get this straight. Paul wrote Ephesians from heaven and Lazarus had a conversation with a man burning in hell while he sat on Abraham's lap???

Well Im glad the scriptures seem to be a joke to you? Do you understand what the word "mystery" means?
and many things that Paul writes are hard to understand, just as he said in this same book.
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

You do understand that a believer is saved in spirit not in flesh? And Paul is teaching the "mystery" of the gospel throughout his epistles, and even teaches this very truth here and in other epistles.
So you may not understand? It could be be that instead of trying to prove the bible is not true, if some would spend that same time trying to understand and believe the bible, many would be able to understand the scriptures as they should.

You said "well I am glad that scriptures seem to be a joke to you?" This statement is not very clear since you added the ? mark. Are you asking me if scriptures are a joke to me or are you taking it upon yourself to tell me how I view scripture? It is a "mystery" to me how you like to ignore certain scripture and then twist other scripture...well actually it is not a mystery to me why you do it... people like you have been doing that for centuries. Don't you mean people should spend time trying to understand the bible as YOU want them too, George?

The clear reading of the scriptures, in any translation, proves the simple and plain point I was making. Not ignoring anything, not twisting anything but just believeing the clear intentions of the words.

Eph 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (ASV) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (BBE) So that we came back from death with him, and are seated with him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (DBY) and has raised [us] up together, and has made [us] sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MKJV) and has raised [us] up together and made [us] sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MNT) together with him He raised us from the dead, and together with Christ Jesus seated us in the heavenly realm,
Eph 2:6 (NKJV) and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (Oracl) and has raised us up together, and has set us down together in heavenly places with Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (RSV) and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (TCNT) And, through our union with Christ Jesus, God raised us with him, and caused us to sit with him on high,
Eph 2:6 (WEB) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (WNT) raised us with Him from the dead, and enthroned us with Him in the heavenly realms as being in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (YLT) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

I think one of the problems that you are having is that you do not understand writing in hyperbole....not to mention ignoring scripture that teaches that we "sleep" and await the resurrection when we die but that is besides the point. You are not able to think outside of the mainstream traditional church teachings and just let scripture guide your thinking. Once again in Eph. 2:6 Paul is writing in his present time and writes that he IS sitting with Jesus in heaven. Now I ask you AGAIN was Paul sitting in heaven when he wrote Ephesians?

 

[Grappler]

Lazarus had a conversation with a man burning in hell while he sat on Abraham's lap???

Do you really think Lazarus was said to have spoke? Using your hyperbole, I'd sure be interested in your interpretation of Luke 16:19-31. ;)

It is called a parable. A parable is a fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth. A better question to ask is do YOU think that Lazarus was really sitting in Abraham's lap having a conversation with a man in unbelievable agony?

 

[George Muller]

You said "well I am glad that scriptures seem to be a joke to you?" This statement is not very clear since you added the ? mark. Are you asking me if scriptures are a joke to me or are you taking it upon yourself to tell me how I view scripture? It is a "mystery" to me how you like to ignore certain scripture and then twist other scripture...well actually it is not a mystery to me why you do it... people like you have been doing that for centuries. Don't you mean people should spend time trying to understand the bible as YOU want them too, George?

The clear reading of the scriptures, in any translation, proves the simple and plain point I was making. Not ignoring anything, not twisting anything but just believeing the clear intentions of the words.

Eph 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (ASV) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (BBE) So that we came back from death with him, and are seated with him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (DBY) and has raised [us] up together, and has made [us] sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MKJV) and has raised [us] up together and made [us] sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MNT) together with him He raised us from the dead, and together with Christ Jesus seated us in the heavenly realm,
Eph 2:6 (NKJV) and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (Oracl) and has raised us up together, and has set us down together in heavenly places with Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (RSV) and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (TCNT) And, through our union with Christ Jesus, God raised us with him, and caused us to sit with him on high,
Eph 2:6 (WEB) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (WNT) raised us with Him from the dead, and enthroned us with Him in the heavenly realms as being in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (YLT) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

I think one of the problems that you are having is that you do not understand writing in hyperbole....not to mention ignoring scripture that teaches that we "sleep" and await the resurrection when we die but that is besides the point. You are not able to think outside of the mainstream traditional church teachings and just let scripture guide your thinking. Once again in Eph. 2:6 Paul is writing in his present time and writes that he IS sitting with Jesus in heaven. Now I ask you AGAIN was Paul sitting in heaven when he wrote Ephesians?

Like I said Paul teaches this truth throughout his epistles, Its part of the mystery of that he often wrote. Now just because its too hard for you to understand or it seems hard for you to believe? You want to say its "hyperboylic" which really means its a big joke. No it is the Word of God, written in plain words for those who have faith to believe it.

I would ask you, was it "hyperbolic" when you "died with Christ in baptism? Or when He washed away your sins?
Was Christ raised and seated with God? Did He not say , He would be in us and we would be in Him? This scripture is speaking of spiritual truth. Just because you dont understand it, means nothing to the power of its truth.

 

[George Muller]

I believe I see the pattern? Just call it a "parable" or "hyperbolic" if it shows the error of ones doctrine.:naughty

 

[Eugene]

It is called a parable. A parable is a fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth. A better question to ask is do YOU think that Lazarus was really sitting in Abraham's lap having a conversation with a man in unbelievable agony?

No I don't; I don't read of Lazarus saying anything, and what spiritual truth do you think was brought forth in this allegory? Would you consider references to us being in Christ on an equal footing with Abraham's bosom, and thus discount them as a hyperbole?

 

[smaller]

Lazarus had a conversation with a man burning in hell while he sat on Abraham's lap???

Do you really think Lazarus was said to have spoke? Using your hyperbole, I'd sure be interested in your interpretation of Luke 16:19-31. ;)

It is called a parable. A parable is a fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth. A better question to ask is do YOU think that Lazarus was really sitting in Abraham's lap having a conversation with a man in unbelievable agony?

A parable is NOT a fictional story.

You as a believer for example are A SHEEP and I can assure you you are very very REAL.

You as a believer for example are a WHEAT and I can assure you you are very very REAL.

Parables are used to convey very very REAL Spiritual matters.

They are not 'fictional tales.' But matters more REAL than REALITY.

s

 

[Grappler]

You said "well I am glad that scriptures seem to be a joke to you?" This statement is not very clear since you added the ? mark. Are you asking me if scriptures are a joke to me or are you taking it upon yourself to tell me how I view scripture? It is a "mystery" to me how you like to ignore certain scripture and then twist other scripture...well actually it is not a mystery to me why you do it... people like you have been doing that for centuries. Don't you mean people should spend time trying to understand the bible as YOU want them too, George?

The clear reading of the scriptures, in any translation, proves the simple and plain point I was making. Not ignoring anything, not twisting anything but just believeing the clear intentions of the words.

Eph 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (ASV) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (BBE) So that we came back from death with him, and are seated with him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (DBY) and has raised [us] up together, and has made [us] sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MKJV) and has raised [us] up together and made [us] sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MNT) together with him He raised us from the dead, and together with Christ Jesus seated us in the heavenly realm,
Eph 2:6 (NKJV) and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (Oracl) and has raised us up together, and has set us down together in heavenly places with Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (RSV) and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (TCNT) And, through our union with Christ Jesus, God raised us with him, and caused us to sit with him on high,
Eph 2:6 (WEB) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (WNT) raised us with Him from the dead, and enthroned us with Him in the heavenly realms as being in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (YLT) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

I think one of the problems that you are having is that you do not understand writing in hyperbole....not to mention ignoring scripture that teaches that we "sleep" and await the resurrection when we die but that is besides the point. You are not able to think outside of the mainstream traditional church teachings and just let scripture guide your thinking. Once again in Eph. 2:6 Paul is writing in his present time and writes that he IS sitting with Jesus in heaven. Now I ask you AGAIN was Paul sitting in heaven when he wrote Ephesians?

Like I said Paul teaches this truth throughout his epistles, Its part of the mystery of that he often wrote. Now just because its too hard for you to understand or it seems hard for you to believe? You want to say its "hyperboylic" which really means its a big joke. No it is the Word of God, written in plain words for those who have faith to believe it.

I would ask you, was it "hyperbolic" when you "died with Christ in baptism? Or when He washed away your sins?
Was Christ raised and seated with God? Did He not say , He would be in us and we would be in Him? This scripture is speaking of spiritual truth. Just because you dont understand it, means nothing to the power of its truth.

So the mystery that he often wrote was that he was in heaven writing Ephesians??? Ok George if that is what you want to believe my friend then go ahead....I am sure there are stranger beliefs than that. "died with Christ in baptism"?? What are you talking about?? Jesus died around 2000 years ago. I was baptized in June of '88 several years after I accepted Jesus as my savior. Once again you don't understand allegories and metaphors.:o Don't you know if Christ was raised and seated with God?? Of course he was George . You are bringing up things that have nothing to do with the topic while you cleverly (you think) ignore my questions and scripture that teaches that we do NOT go to heaven at death.

 

[Grappler]

It is called a parable. A parable is a fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth. A better question to ask is do YOU think that Lazarus was really sitting in Abraham's lap having a conversation with a man in unbelievable agony?

No I don't; I don't read of Lazarus saying anything, and what spiritual truth do you think was brought forth in this allegory? Would you consider references to us being in Christ on an equal footing with Abraham's bosom, and thus discount them as a hyperbole?

Good. Then you see that this whole parable was not intended to teach us about the semantics of the afterlife. As for the spiritual truth it surprises me that you do not know. In a "nutshell" (not literally) Jesus was teaching us that not all of those who think that they are going to reach the Kingdom (the rich man representing the Pharisees) will make it while on the "other hand" (not literally) those who in this life seem least likely (the beggar named Lazarus) will indeed be in the Kingdom. To say that this parable was intended by Jesus to teach us of the afterlife is silly and a mistake that mainstream Christianity has made for centuries...along with other things. As for you last question-yes. Are we literally hanging out inside of Jesus the Son of God? No. This is a spiritual thing not a physical thing.

 

[Grappler]

Lazarus had a conversation with a man burning in hell while he sat on Abraham's lap???

Do you really think Lazarus was said to have spoke? Using your hyperbole, I'd sure be interested in your interpretation of Luke 16:19-31. ;)

It is called a parable. A parable is a fictional story that conveys a spiritual truth. A better question to ask is do YOU think that Lazarus was really sitting in Abraham's lap having a conversation with a man in unbelievable agony?

A parable is NOT a fictional story.

You as a believer for example are A SHEEP and I can assure you you are very very REAL.

You as a believer for example are a WHEAT and I can assure you you are very very REAL.

Parables are used to convey very very REAL Spiritual matters.

They are not 'fictional tales.' But matters more REAL than REALITY.

s

No smaller I am not literally a sheep nor are you...but hey dude if you want to pretend like you are a sheep then go ahead and baaa all you like. Like I told George it amazes me the people who don't understand allegorisms and metaphors.

 

[George Muller]

I think one of the problems that you are having is that you do not understand writing in hyperbole....not to mention ignoring scripture that teaches that we "sleep" and await the resurrection when we die but that is besides the point. You are not able to think outside of the mainstream traditional church teachings and just let scripture guide your thinking. Once again in Eph. 2:6 Paul is writing in his present time and writes that he IS sitting with Jesus in heaven. Now I ask you AGAIN was Paul sitting in heaven when he wrote Ephesians?

Like I said Paul teaches this truth throughout his epistles, Its part of the mystery of that he often wrote. Now just because its too hard for you to understand or it seems hard for you to believe? You want to say its "hyperboylic" which really means its a big joke. No it is the Word of God, written in plain words for those who have faith to believe it.

I would ask you, was it "hyperbolic" when you "died with Christ in baptism? Or when He washed away your sins?
Was Christ raised and seated with God? Did He not say , He would be in us and we would be in Him? This scripture is speaking of spiritual truth. Just because you dont understand it, means nothing to the power of its truth.

So the mystery that he often wrote was that he was in heaven writing Ephesians??? Ok George if that is what you want to believe my friend then go ahead....I am sure there are stranger beliefs than that. "died with Christ in baptism"?? What are you talking about?? Jesus died around 2000 years ago. I was baptized in June of '88 several years after I accepted Jesus as my savior. Once again you don't understand allegories and metaphors.:o Don't you know if Christ was raised and seated with God?? Of course he was George . You are bringing up things that have nothing to do with the topic while you cleverly (you think) ignore my questions and scripture that teaches that we do NOT go to heaven at death.

Like I said, it seems a BIG JOKE to you, but the scriptures are clear and Paul teaches this truth throughout his other writtings.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

I guess it much easier to just call what you cannot believe or understand "hyperbolic"
The sciptures cannot be challenged by jokes, the scriptures stands against all the lies of satan.

Eph 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (ASV) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (BBE) So that we came back from death with him, and are seated with him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (DBY) and has raised [us] up together, and has made [us] sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MKJV) and has raised [us] up together and made [us] sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MNT) together with him He raised us from the dead, and together with Christ Jesus seated us in the heavenly realm,
Eph 2:6 (NKJV) and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (Oracl) and has raised us up together, and has set us down together in heavenly places with Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (RSV) and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (TCNT) And, through our union with Christ Jesus, God raised us with him, and caused us to sit with him on high,
Eph 2:6 (WEB) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (WNT) raised us with Him from the dead, and enthroned us with Him in the heavenly realms as being in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (YLT) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

 

[George Muller]

Jesus died around 2000 years ago. I was baptized in June of '88 several years after I accepted Jesus as my savior.

What do mean you accepted Him as your savior? Did you see Him save you? What did this baptism represent? Did you really die are you really saved? You did not see these things, then how can they be true? So you are willing to accept some unseen things in the scriptures as true, but other things, you choose to ignore.

 

[George Muller]

Like I told George it amazes me the people who don't understand allegorisms and metaphors.

No we just dont accept that you decide what is "allegorism" especially when one believes such nonsense as that Christians will not be with Christ.

 

[smaller]

No smaller I am not literally a sheep nor are you...but hey dude if you want to pretend like you are a sheep then go ahead and baaa all you like. Like I told George it amazes me the people who don't understand allegorisms and metaphors.

I never said you were a 'literal sheep.' I said the allegories are REAL, not fantasy stories.

Did Pharisees have real WOLVES inside of them? Uh no. They did however have 'wolves' in them.

Believers are 'allegorized' as sheep.

Does this make us 'real' sheep? No. We are however 'real believers' and stated as such in terms of 'sheep' and 'wheat' and other allegorical connections.

Is this a difficult concept for you?

A parable of sheep is a parable of 'real believing people' and not some fantasy story.

Jesus is A Shephard of sheep. Does that mean He tends sheep?

Uh, no. He tends our souls. Does that mean we have no real Shepherd? Uh, no. He is a real Shepherd tending allegorical sheep, those being US.

These matters of 'reality' are conveyed allegorically because they concern unseen matters of spiritual nature, but those matters are REAL nevertheless.

Baa on that for awhile and get back to me.

s

 

[Grappler]

I think one of the problems that you are having is that you do not understand writing in hyperbole....not to mention ignoring scripture that teaches that we "sleep" and await the resurrection when we die but that is besides the point. You are not able to think outside of the mainstream traditional church teachings and just let scripture guide your thinking. Once again in Eph. 2:6 Paul is writing in his present time and writes that he IS sitting with Jesus in heaven. Now I ask you AGAIN was Paul sitting in heaven when he wrote Ephesians?

Like I said Paul teaches this truth throughout his epistles, Its part of the mystery of that he often wrote. Now just because its too hard for you to understand or it seems hard for you to believe? You want to say its "hyperboylic" which really means its a big joke. No it is the Word of God, written in plain words for those who have faith to believe it.

I would ask you, was it "hyperbolic" when you "died with Christ in baptism? Or when He washed away your sins?
Was Christ raised and seated with God? Did He not say , He would be in us and we would be in Him? This scripture is speaking of spiritual truth. Just because you dont understand it, means nothing to the power of its truth.

So the mystery that he often wrote was that he was in heaven writing Ephesians??? Ok George if that is what you want to believe my friend then go ahead....I am sure there are stranger beliefs than that. "died with Christ in baptism"?? What are you talking about?? Jesus died around 2000 years ago. I was baptized in June of '88 several years after I accepted Jesus as my savior. Once again you don't understand allegories and metaphors.:o Don't you know if Christ was raised and seated with God?? Of course he was George . You are bringing up things that have nothing to do with the topic while you cleverly (you think) ignore my questions and scripture that teaches that we do NOT go to heaven at death.

Like I said, it seems a BIG JOKE to you, but the scriptures are clear and Paul teaches this truth throughout his other writtings.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

I guess it much easier to just call what you cannot believe or understand "hyperbolic"
The sciptures cannot be challenged by jokes, the scriptures stands against all the lies of satan.

Eph 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (ASV) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (BBE) So that we came back from death with him, and are seated with him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (DBY) and has raised [us] up together, and has made [us] sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MKJV) and has raised [us] up together and made [us] sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MNT) together with him He raised us from the dead, and together with Christ Jesus seated us in the heavenly realm,
Eph 2:6 (NKJV) and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (Oracl) and has raised us up together, and has set us down together in heavenly places with Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (RSV) and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (TCNT) And, through our union with Christ Jesus, God raised us with him, and caused us to sit with him on high,
Eph 2:6 (WEB) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (WNT) raised us with Him from the dead, and enthroned us with Him in the heavenly realms as being in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (YLT) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

Did Paul write Ephesians in heaven?

 

[Grappler]

Jesus died around 2000 years ago. I was baptized in June of '88 several years after I accepted Jesus as my savior.

What do mean you accepted Him as your savior? Did you see Him save you? What did this baptism represent? Did you really die are you really saved? You did not see these things, then how can they be true? So you are willing to accept some unseen things in the scriptures as true, but other things, you choose to ignore.

Questions addressed in order: You mean you don't understand what accepting Jesus as your savior means or baptism??? - Not with my eyes but I did "see" the light of truth and felt his prescence but I have always felt his prescence. - No I did not die. I am a child of God and talk to Him...does that make me saved by George's standard? - I don't expect you to understand nor will I try. How can one teach a blind man colors? - Yes. Because I rightly divide the word and understand basic language. I understand hyperboles, metaphors, and allegories unlike some people. Anymore questions? I enjoy answering them for you and I hope that I can help you in your study of scripture.