Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[DRS81]

If you are saying that then indirectly you are meaning that the whole bible is logically written by a man and not inspired by the power of the Holy Spirit

No what I'm saying is that salvation is not done by our works, it is done by what Jesus did on the cross. It is finished!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Doesn't your cat clean himself? Why give him a bath?
.

In our analogy, the cat cleaning himself would be the works gospel--the very thing you argue against.

The point you have to address is how is it that there is absolutely no cooperation or will of the cat required for the cat to receive a cleaning that can only happen because the owner draws the bath and puts the cat in it? That is the strange conclusion that you have to explain. I'm listening.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who are in Christ are saved.

Those who do not REMAIN IN CHRIST, will BECOME unsaved.

Hopefully you can agree?
JLB

This opinion cannot be supported from Scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No what I'm saying is that salvation is not done by our works, it is done by what Jesus did on the cross. It is finished!

What do I have to 'do' to apply this work to myself? Nothing, nothing at all, it just happens to me?

 

[Danus]

See, Danus, your doctrine, particularly, is potentially guilty of this arrogant lack of fear. Your doctrine says, "hey, I'm saved as a result of no consideration of me whatsoever, but just because God wanted it to be that way for me, so, what I do can't change that." This really hits at what I was saying about teaching this kind of stuff to unbelievers. The arrogance of the church is perhaps the unbelievers most hated and despised thing about us. Perhaps our witnessing would be more effective and respected by them if we got off of our 'I'm privileged, and there's nothing I can do about it, so sorry for you' pedestal.

Not at all. My fear and trembling is of great respect for the Lord and the understanding that I do not deserve salvation I deserve Hell and I am very aware of that through my salvation.

Please understand that your not quoting me in your above description. That's from you. That's a character in mocking that you have created as a straw man argument, set up for yourself to box against.

I'm am only here answering a good question that JLB ask. You're not obligated to agree, but you are obligated to be respectful.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This opinion cannot be supported from Scripture.

Feel 'Free' to explain how branches that are in the root by faith are then cut out of the root because of unbelief? And remember, scripture shows us that there is no salvation outside of the inheritance, the root, so we know this is not talking about merely losing kingdom privilege.

 

[DRS81]

What do I have to 'do' to apply this work to myself? Nothing, nothing at all, it just happens to me?

It happens to you because God allows it. You are not holy because of what you do, it is because of what (the holy spirit) does (in you).

 

[DRS81]

Feel 'Free' to explain how branches that are in the root by faith are then cut out of the root because of unbelief? And remember, scripture shows us that there is no salvation outside of the inheritance, the root, so we know this is not talking about merely losing kingdom privilege.

Judas was cut off because he was not saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not at all. My fear and trembling is of great respect for the Lord and the understanding that I do not deserve salvation I deserve Hell and I am very aware of that through my salvation.

Please understand that your not quoting me in your above description. That's from you. That's a character in mocking that you have created as a straw man argument, set up for yourself to box against.

I'm am only here answering a good question that JLB ask. You're not obligated to agree, but you are obligated to be respectful.

I am free to characterize and summarize what your doctrine believes. You are free to correct it, or insist that's not what it really is about if you want. That's how forums work. OSAS is doing that to me. I just simply correct the error of the judgment being made....using scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It happens to you because God allows it. You are not holy because of what you do, it is because of what (the holy spirit) does (in you).

No, I'm pretty sure I'm holy because I believed. Do you want to argue the point?

 

[DRS81]

No, I'm pretty sure I'm holy because I believed. Do you want to argue the point?

No, you're not holy because you believed. You are holy because God sent his grace to indwell you. Holy Spirit. God's spirit is HOLY.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not at all. My fear and trembling is of great respect for the Lord and the understanding that I do not deserve salvation I deserve Hell and I am very aware of that through my salvation.

Why have any fear in regard to what you say you had absolutely nothing to do with happening, and continue to have absolutely nothing to do with happening? The fear Paul talks about is completely misplaced if what you say about predestination is correct. Think about it.

...and remember, we know he's not just talking about kingdom privilege. Revelation shows us there is no salvation outside of the kingdom, only the permanent place of torment for the unholy.

 

[JLB]

It happens to you because God allows it. You are not holy because of what you do, it is because of what (the holy spirit) does (in you).

And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

You couldn't be more wrong.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, you're not holy because you believed. You are holy because God sent his grace to indwell you. Holy Spirit. God's spirit is HOLY.

So believing is NOT a requirement for salvation. Is that what you are saying?

I'm aware of another gospel that says believing IS what is required to be saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

Believers who have been sanctified in Christ either walk in that sanctification, or they don't. As we've seen in the Bible, if you choose not to, you, like Esau, will forfeit your right of birth to the inheritance.

But inheritance refers to blessings and reward in eternity, not to salvation.

We believers have an inheritance by right of birth. The warning is that you will lose that right of birth if you are like Esau and 'sell' your birthright for sensual pleasure. "Afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears." (Hebrews 12:17 NASB).

You've confused salvation with rewards. Sad.

\Of course, the popular OSAS teaching is that all one will lose is heavenly reward, but I showed in Revelation where there is no salvation outside of the inheritance, the New Jerusalem, only the fires of damnation for the unholy. Which, as we see, includes those who have rights to the inheritance by right of (spiritual) birth, but who by their own choice choose to not live set apart lives in accordance with that set-apart status they have by virtue of that birth.

You've misunderstood the Revelation passage, like the others.

The requirements for salvation are to be justified by faith, and to be sanctified by that same faith.

No verse says this. The ONLY requirement for salvation is faith in Christ. How many verses would you like to see?

Of course, all you're probably hearing in that is 'works'. The argument is, the faith that saves is the faith that is obedient.

If that were true (but it isn't), then there wouldn't be the need for ALL the commands for believers to be obedient and holy and blameless, now, would there? If one's faith does produce obedience, then there is no need for those commands.

So, your view is refuted by all the commands to stop sinning, stop grieving/quenching the Holy Spirit, and to be holy and blameless.

Positional sanctification happens the moment one believes. It happens because 1) you believe, and 2) God is faithful and just to respond to a person's trust in Jesus Christ. Without God's response salvation is impossible--but that hardly means we don't have to believe, and continue to believe, to secure what won't happen without him.

You were quite correct up to the last phrase, about having to continue to believe. There are NO VERSES that says that. All you've got is opinion and assumption. The moment one believes, he is eternally saved. That's what having eternal life MEANS. Your view cheapens the meaning of "eternal".

There are the verses I shared about not living up to the sanctification that one receives when they believe. You will lose the right of birth you are set apart to if you choose to not live in that set apartness, just as Esau traded his right of birth through his careless and foolish contempt for his birth right. And, once you lose it, there's no way to get it back.

So, now it's continue to believe, AND how you live your life, as in "if you choose to not live in that set apartness". Yet, your opinions are not supported by any Scripture that makes these claims.

So, for those of us set apart believers who think you don't have to live up to the sanctification you have been freely given through Christ to still inherit the kingdom....think again. It's a pipe dream of the flesh to think you can freely choose to go on sinning after you have been set apart by faith in Christ and somehow still have the benefit of that sanctification. You will be sorely surprised on the Day of Judgment. You can not sell your birthright out to carnal needs and pleasures and keep it at the same time. But OSAS says you can.

Biblical OSAS says that the one who has believed will be saved. That is a promise. There is no warning of loss of salvation for ANY REASON, which is covered by the "present and future" of Rom 8:38.

Never, huh? You seem to have forgotten about the unpardonable sin.

Seems you've forgotten that the believer cannot commit that sin.

Okay, good. By making the fire of Hebrews 10:27 NASB not the fire of damnation, you are showing me that you agree that sanctified believers can indeed commit the unpardonable sin. We're making progress.

Nope, I'm not. They cannot.

You can play games with what the lake of fire actually is to suit your doctrine, whether it's literal or figurative, or not, or how much of each it actually is, but the text plainly says the punishment given these sanctified believers is the punishment of the adversaries of God.

It says NOTHING about "sanctified believers" going to the lake of fire.

That's what makes debating this so easy for non-OSAS--we just go by the plain words of scripture

What a hoot! Not any verse says that salvation can be lost, or that one has to continue to believe to continue to be saved.

So, are you going to be like most OSAS Protestants and wax theologically and insist you lose your salvation for doing that, but in the next discussion about OSAS insist that a believer can never lose their salvation? Just asking.

What in the world are you asking? The Bible guarantees salvation for all who have believed. The aorist tense refutes your view.

And I showed you the verses that show us that the punishment the disobedient, Christ denying believer will endure is not a loss of rewards within the New Jerusalem, but losing the birthright to the New Jerusalem altogether and being put outside the inheritance where all unholy people will go. Their fate being the lake of fire--whatever the burning of the lake of fire actually is.

No, that passage does not say or mean what you think it says or means.

You keep redefining terms, adding words, and ignoring texts.

Big charge. Please back them up with evidence. Charges are cheap. Evidence is what counts.

That's why you think there's no scriptural basis for it.

Because there is none.

I'd be worried if I were you. You have EVERYTHING to lose if you pattern your life after your doctrine and you're wrong. I have NOTHING to lose if I pattern my life after my doctrine and I'm right, or even if I'm wrong. Think about it.

Actually, I'd suggest that you think about it. Your view has added to Scripture. You've got to continue to do something, in order to maintain, keep, etc your salvation. But Christ paid the entire debt. And your view is that you've got to continue to do something to stay saved. That says a lot about how much faith you have in Christ. Which isn't much, if you think about it. You're trusting in your own faith to continue.

Calvinists will claim that God gives the faith, and they are trusting God that what He gives will continue. Is that your view? Or do you think that believing is a free will action from within?

Are you really willing to gamble your life on this OSAS thing?

I have Scripture. There is no gamble in that. My faith is solid in what Scripture actually SAYS.

And teach others to do the same?

For those who have paid attention to my posts, know that salvation is guaranteed for a moment in time (aorist tense) belief in Christ for salvation. Beyond that, the believer's life will "reap what he sows". iow, the obedient and faithful believer will be blessed and rewarded for all eternity, and the disobedient and unfaithful believer will experience God's discipline in time and loss of eternal rewards. They will be on the sidelines during the entire Millennium. They'll be there, but not having the joy and privilege of reigning with Christ.

What is wrong with what I believe? My view of God's promise is much stronger than yours.

Maybe you tell others that when one goes back to the law from Christ, they aren't saved anymore, maybe you don't.

Of course I don't. It isn't true. Once a son, always a son.

But it's funny how many OSAS Protestants I've talked to in law and OSAS discussions that say if a believer keeps the law they are now trying to be saved by their works and will not be saved, but then in an OSAS discussion say it's impossible for a believer to lose their salvation. I'm entertained by the duplicity of their beliefs.

They're flat wrong. Just as conditional security is wrong.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe man has a part in his own salvation, or do you believe that everyone will be saved no matter what?


JLB

I expect that Gregg will have a good answer, but my answer is that man has no part in his salvation. All he can do is receive the free gift of eternal life. That is not having a part. It's receiving a gift.

Gifts, by definition, cannot be earned or deserved.

If man has any part in his salvation, that indicates that salvation is earned or deserved, in part. Nonsense.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Ouch, there's that 'himself' thing again. That doesn't fit in well with OSAS doctrine.

 

[DRS81]

And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

You couldn't be more wrong.

The only reason you're purified is (because) of the holy spirit JLB.

So believing is NOT a requirement for salvation. Is that what you are saying?

I'm aware of another gospel that says believing IS what is required to be saved.

When you believed and had faith in Jesus Christ, you were still a sinner. God's grace is what made you holy. Holiness comes from the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

What do I have to 'do' to apply this work to myself? Nothing, nothing at all, it just happens to me?

Just believe in the work of Christ. That's all anyone can do to be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I expect that gregg will have a good answer, but my answer is that man has no part in his salvation. All he can do is receive the free gift of eternal life. That is not having a part. It's receiving a gift.

Gifts, by definition, cannot be earned or deserved.

If man has any part in his salvation, that indicates that salvation is earned or deserved, in part. Nonsense.

If we were arguing that faith is somehow like the work that Paul says can not justify you'd have a point. But that's simply not the argument. Believing is NOT a work of the law that OSAS should claim that it is among the works that man does that can not justify.

The mistake OSAS makes is to think that if we 'do' the believing that means we are trying to earn our own salvation. But please show me where believing is included in the works that a man does that Paul says have no power to justify. Can you at least show me an implication that believing is included in the things that I 'do' that can not justify?