“The Romans Road†has a disastrous fork in the road!

[Drew]

Drew: We should look at the balance of Paul's teaching as a whole, including in Romans.

This sounds very much like an effort to avoid my question. I will keep asking:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Please address this text directly. Do you or do you not agree with me that it is a clear statement that eternal life is granted according to what we have done?

I agree we need to look at all Paul write. That includes Romans 2:6-7. Paul presumably was in his right mind when he wrote it.

So what, exactly do you think Paul is saying in that text.

As for Ephesians 2:9, I have dealt with this already, and reminded you that I dealt with it.

Please deal with the detailed argument I have provided to the effect that in Ephesians 2:8-9, it is the salvific power of the works of the Law of Moses that are being denied, not "good works".

This pattern always recurs: people evade Romans 2:6-7 and they appear unable or unwilling to consider that their take on Ephesians 2:8-9 might be mistaken.

 

[Drew]

Romans 4.5 is important

Agree. I believe this is a metaphor for obligation. The problem that Paul is dealing with is that the Jew thinks that God "owes" him salvation because he is Jewish, just as a workman is owed wages. I suggest that the broader context shows this to be the case. I can argue Romans 4:5 in grisly detail, but I will not do so unless and until you actually deal with Romans 2:6-7 and my argument about Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[farouk]

Drew: We should look at the balance of Paul's teaching as a whole, including in Romans.

This sounds very much like an effort to avoid my question. I will keep asking:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Please address this text directly. Do you or do you not agree with me that it is a clear statement that eternal life is granted according to what we have done?

I agree we need to look at all Paul write. That includes Romans 2:6-7. Paul presumably was in his right mind when he wrote it.

So what, exactly do you think Paul is saying in that text.

As for Ephesians 2:9, I have dealt with this already, and reminded you that I dealt with it.

Please deal with the detailed argument I have provided to the effect that in Ephesians 2:8-9, it is the salvific power of the works of the Law of Moses that are being denied, not "good works".

This pattern always recurs: people do not know to explain Romans 2:6-7 and they appear unable or unwilling to consider that their take on Ephesians 2:8-9 might be mistaken.

Drew:

Please let's not get personal in this. Please.

To reiterate from previously, faith is the key. Where Paul says in Romans 2.7: 'To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life', faith, not works, (I can't emphasize this strongly enough) is the key.

Romans 4.5 is very clear also: 'But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.'

 

[Drew]

To reiterate from previously, faith is the key. Where Paul says in Romans 2.7: 'To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life', faith, not works, (I can't emphasize this strongly enough) is the key.

Does Paul mention faith in that verse? No. His words are what they are - eternal life is given, yes, according to what you have done:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

You appear to be adding "faith" to the text. That word is simply not there, though.

Please deal with Paul actually wrote.

Let me be crystal clear about something: The fact that Paul indeed affirms salvation by faith does not give us license to rewrite Romans 2:6-7. The statement by Paul in those two verses is as clear as can be: eternal life is granted, yes, according to what we have done.

Please answer the following question: Why do you suppose Paul wrote such a clear statement asserting that eternal life is based on "persistence in doing good" if He does not really believe this?

 

[Drew]

I will endeavour to not "get personal". But it is imperative that you (and others) deal with the arguments I am putting forward. I have made a clear, detailed argument about Ephesians 2, and why it has been widely misunderstood. Why are you not addressing it?

And I have repeatedly asked you to explain Romans 2:6-7, and yet you have not directly addressed what Paul actually wrote in that text. He must have meant something by it. So what does He mean in that text. We can talk about other texts, too, of course. But you still need to explain that particular text (Romans 2:6-7).

I think he means exactly what he says - that eternal life is granted according to the good works our lives have manifested. I have been clear: I do not think we can "take credit" for those works. But Paul still writes what he writes in that verse; it is not going away.

 

[farouk]

To reiterate from previously, faith is the key. Where Paul says in Romans 2.7: 'To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life', faith, not works, (I can't emphasize this strongly enough) is the key.

Does Paul mention faith in that verse? No. His words are what they are - eternal life is given, yes, according to what you have done:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

You appear to be adding "faith" to the text. That word is simply not there, though.

Please deal with Paul actually wrote.

Let me be crystal clear about something: The fact that Paul indeed affirms salvation by faith does not give us license to rewrite Romans 2:6-7. The statement by Paul in those two verses is as clear as can be: eternal life is granted, yes, according to what we have done.

Please answer the following question: Why do you suppose Paul wrote such a clear statement asserting that eternal life is based on "persistence in doing good" if He does not really believe this?

Drew:

For Paul, works and faith are big, big issues. And the motives behind them. His words have been cited.

What makes you assume (if you are; I really don't know) that, whereas for Paul faith (not works) is the key to salvation in Romans 4.5 and Ephesians 2.8, yet in Romans 2.7 'To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life' is supposedly motivated by meritorious works rather than faith?

This is the broader question. And I hardly think that I am supposedly avoiding an issue; we need to look at what Paul means in terms of his teaching more broadly, don't we?

For your interest, I am dispensational, and I attend an independent local congregation, that practises believers' baptism and preaches a simple Gospel. You don't have to tell me, but it would help me if you told us what your church association was, so we can maybe understand better where you may be coming from docrinally.

 

[Deborah13]

I have already dealt with this. Paul (or whoever wrote Ephesians is referring to doing the works of the Law of Moses here. Big difference.

Drew, have you ever read the 613 Laws of Moses? If you have I'm sure you noticed that any good work we could imagine "except witnessing about Jesus" is included in those laws. God gave detailed instructions about life and living Godly. Everything from marriage, to children, to how to treat the stranger, how to take care of widows and orphans, how to give, etc.
I can't think of one thing that God didn't cover in one law or another. Maybe someone else can?
These were not rabbidical laws but laws given directly to Moses from God. Weren't they?

What I see as being different is that our salvation is only through the cross, the blood of the Lamb, through faith, by grace. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a huge difference I think because now we have the fruit of the Spirit which enables us to perform the good works correctly, not because of the Law which no one could do perfectly, but by love, patience, long-suffering, etc. But even with this enabling can we be perfect?

The Law of Moses is NOT just the Big 10.

This is just what I see, I am willing to listen to correction on this especially from someone who has actually read the Law of Moses and what it entailed.

 

[Drew]

What makes you assume (if you are; I really don't know) that, whereas for Paul faith (not works) is the key to salvation in Romans 4.5 and Ephesians 2.8, yet in Romans 2.7 'To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life' is supposedly motivated by meritorious works rather than faith?

You are basically asking why Paul contradicts himself. Well, if we believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, we believe he cannot be doing that. So we need to develop a model that takes Paul seriously in (1) Romans 2:6-7, (2) Eph 2:8-9; (3) Romans 4:5.

I have already told you how I take each of those texts seriously:

1. Paul means exactly what he says in Romans 2:6-7;
2. Paul (or whoever wrote Ephesians) is talking about the works of the Law of Moses in 2:8-9, not good works (and I have argued for this);
3. Paul is using a workman metaphor to support his real argument, which is that Jews thinks God "owes" them salvation.

I have engaged each of these texts!

You, frankly, have avoided engaging Romans 2:6-7: you have provided a series of statements which do not really address the text itself.

And. at least for now, you have not dealt with a counter-argument to your take on Ephesians 2:8-9.

So I hope you can understand my objections: we need to have a model that accounts for all texts, and we cannot simply avoid dealing with counter-arguments (again, you may need time to digest the Eph argument I have provided; if so, say so please).

Why are you not dealing with my argument re Ephesians 2:8-9? If you have not had time to think about it fine. But you certainly cannot avoid dealing with it (if this is to be a serious discussion).

Your question incorrectly presumes that I see Eph 2 as you see it, and that I see Romans 4:5 as you see them.

I have a model that addresses all three texts. Do you?

 

[farouk]

Drew:

I'm not, with respect, looking for ingenious models, whoever they may belong to.

From where I sit, you seem to be assuming that, despite what Paul teaches in Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 about faith being the key to salvation, yet 'patient continuance' etc in Romans 2 is supposedly all about relying on works, rather than faith.

This might not seem to clear to you, that this is what you are doing.

But it would seem so.

You may not think you are just explaning away what Paul says in Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 about faith being the key to salvation.

But it would seem so.

This being apparently so, I really don't think I can contribute any more.

 

[Drew]

All: Too busy to post more today. Key point though: We need to take everything Paul says seriously. It simply will not do to not directly engage, for example, Romans 2:6-7. In that text, Paul very clearly asserts that eternal life is granted according to what we have done. Pointing out to me that, in other places, he says something else is (clearly) not enough! You need to explain why Paul says what he says in 2:6-7. Likewise, I need to deal with texts like Romans 4:5. But I have dealt with that text - I asserted it was a metaphor and I intend to support that assertion later.

All I am asking is that each text is actually dealt with.

 

[Maedchen]

"This is God's formula: when a person sins, he or she will pay for it - in this life and in the life to come.
The formula continues, though, and it is the way of God's grace - Jesus' death on the cross for our sins.
We cannot be saved by our own good works, but only through faith in the One who took our sins upon Himself and died in our place. That is grace!"

Billy Graham

Love, Rose

 

[George Muller]

I need to deal with texts like Romans 4:5. But I have dealt with that text - I asserted it was a metaphor and I intend to support that assertion later.

So any scripture that can be used to condemn others can be taken as literal, but the gospel (good news) of being justified by faith in Christ, is called a metaphor?

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 ¶ Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

I dont think that some of you understand that all unrighteousness is a product of the flesh of man, that the law produces sinful desires in the flesh of man. So no man can produce rightoeusness until he has been set free from the law of Moses.
Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Now to call the gospel a metaphor, is to deny the gospel and to deny the Cross.

 

[John Zain]

I don't know ... Jesus has different rules than does Paul.

How are Paul's different than Jesus? I don't know this.

Yes, I've know this for about 30 years.
They both said very little about it ... it's easy to check out the verses.

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This is what I found about adultery and divorce.
I don't believe Paul talks about divorce re: adultery.

Matt 5:
32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality
causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

Matt 19:
9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

1 Cor 7:
10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband.
11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband.
And a husband is not to divorce his wife.

 

[reba]

John I don't see your point?

 

[George Muller]

Matt 5:
32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality
causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

Matt 19:
9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

1 Cor 7:
10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband.
11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband.
And a husband is not to divorce his wife.

WHAT IS THE POINT?

be sure God would have us stay married, and He is always against divorce.

1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

 

[eddif]

I can always make mistakes. I can always trust God.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.†7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life


My duty, IMHO, is to continually quote the Grace scriptures. If I am persistencent in pointing out that the Father alone is good and I have issues that Jesus alone can solve then I am seeking honor for Him and immortality through fire at the Bema throne judgement. Our names written in the Lamb's book of life is the final question after burning up any unresolved issues. We receive eternal life in one name ( Jesus).

We repent in John's Baptism
We are saved by Jesus (His life, death, intercession, etc)
We are empowered by the Holy Spirit.

I am not trying to argue. The wall is broken down between everyone. Jesus took care of seperation.

If I cling to Jesus for eternal life, I receive good. If I trust in myself I have done bad. If I return to the Law for righteousness, I mess up, IMHO.

That is the most direct I can get in approaching the statement in blue. I do not want to cause arguments either.

eddif

 

[Maedchen]

"This is God's formula: when a person sins, he or she will pay for it - in this life and in the life to come.
The formula continues, though, and it is the way of God's grace - Jesus' death on the cross for our sins.
We cannot be saved by our own good works, but only through faith in the One who took our sins upon Himself and died in our place. That is grace!"

Billy Graham

Love, Rose

May I just back up my citation from Billy Graham with Scripture in order to make you see how Romans 2:6,7; 4:5 and Epheser 2:8,9 can be joined together (I think that was the problem so far)?

Galatians 2:15-21 explains exactly how this seemingly contradictory verses yet work together:
"We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be!
For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
for through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ;
and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Summarized in my words, that means that God must judge us according to our works as He did under the Mosaic Law. But out of grace and love He provided the ransom sacrifice of His Son. Everyone who believes that Jesus has paid for our sins does not undergo judgement anymore. Would we stubbornly still look to the Law and see if someone is fit for salvation through his works, "then Christ died needlessly."

See what Galatians 3:21,22 further explains: "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

"That is grace!", as Mr. Graham wrote.

In my opinion this shows that Scipture is not contradictory, but shows the way that God worked out for us step by step, the progressing or "evolution" of His purpose for us, which is our salvation through Christ.

Love, Rose

 

[George Muller]

I am seeing alot of folks somehow just forget all the New Testament, and focus upon Rom 2, as if Paul is saying that a man can be justified by works? When in fact Paul is condemning all men as sinners and saying there is no hope for any man to be justified by his good deeds, and especially those who would seek to be justified by works of the law.

Ro 2:1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Ro 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Ro 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Basically Paul is saying NO MAN can work good apart from the Spirit of God, working what is good through them.

 

[John Zain]

Basically Paul is saying
NO MAN can work good apart from the Spirit of God, working what is good through them.

Of course, and this is the point!

Man MUST co-operate with the Holy Spirit in being sanctified
unto some semblance of holiness and perfection.

Which is the direct opposite of sleeping one's way through life trusting in OSAS.
Case closed.

 

[francisdesales]

Basically Paul is saying NO MAN can work good apart from the Spirit of God, working what is good through them.

George, what makes you think that anyone is saying that men are working good apart from the Spirit of God? Who has suggested this?

Why are you blowing things out of proportion? No one can do good without Christ. Is that too difficult to understand?

Regards