“The Law of Sin”

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Then filter Numbers 15 through your doctrine for us so as to make it not mean the same law applied to the gentile. Then no one will think that they might have to keep a literal Sabbath, or that any and every acknowledgement of law means you think justification is by works (the fears that drive this misguided doctrine about the law in the church), though it's clear in the Bible that neither is true anyway.

JLB, it's wrong to develop, and defend, a doctrine that changes the plain words of scripture to guard an understanding of law that isn't even true in the first place. Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm not sure you do. If you did you would not be going to such great lengths to make your point that the gentiles within the people of God did not have to keep the law the way the Jews themselves did. You're grasping at an argument that is not even necessary to make to somehow prove that Paul is not saying gentiles uphold the works of the law in this New Covenant by faith in Christ.

Here is what Numbers 15 states -

32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36


This is what Moses law states.

Those who are under Moses law are required to obey this commandment.

Moses law does not have a "spiritual option" in the way this commandment is to be obeyed.

So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones...

This is what the law of Moses states.

Everything single solitary thing in the law of Moses was required, down to the jot and tittle... until all is fulfilled.

The law was added... until.

The law and the Prophets were until...

The law is not of faith.

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jeremiah 31:31-33


I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts;...


Do you believe that one of the laws that God put in the heart of His people is to stone a person to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

I ask you to answer this question, simply and honestly, with a yes or a no.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

JLB, it's wrong to develop, and defend, a doctrine that changes the plain words of scripture to guard an understanding of law that isn't even true in the first place.

Here are the plain words of Paul -

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19

Paul clearly states that the law was added until Jesus Christ...

Paul says clearly -

9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." Galatians 3:9

The law of Moses declares that all of the requirements are to be obeyed, literally.

Paul goes on to say -

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


...we are no longer under a tutor, is a direct statement that teaches us we are not under the law.

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar--
Galatians 4:21-24

...the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage.



For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:31 NASB)

Start explaining, JLB. Particularly the part about him only talking to Jews.

I've explained the passage several times. Your turn.

And don't bother talking about literal death penalties, Feasts, and Sabbaths, etc. I'm not saying he means we uphold those. We know from the rest of his teaching he doesn't mean those things (and keep those things in mind --death penalties, literal Days and Weeks, etc.--when you're formulating your answer that he's only talking to natural Jews, if you still believe that).

If your honest, I really believe you'll come to the same understanding of the passage that I have shared here.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here is what Numbers 15 states -

32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36


This is what Moses law states.

Those who are under Moses law are required to obey this commandment.

Moses law does not have a "spiritual option" in the way this commandment is to be obeyed.

So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones...

This is what the law of Moses states.

Everything single solitary thing in the law of Moses was required, down to the jot and tittle... until all is fulfilled.

The law was added... until.

The law and the Prophets were until...

The law is not of faith.

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jeremiah 31:31-33


I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts;...


Do you believe that one of the laws that God put in the heart of His people is to stone a person to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

I ask you to answer this question, simply and honestly, with a yes or a no.


JLB

I guess your two posts would mean something if I was arguing that believers are under the literal law of Moses. But I understand that it is hard for the church to not hear an argument for the law in any other way. I blame the church, not you.

 

[Deborah13]

I guess your two posts would mean something if I was arguing that believers are under the literal law of Moses. But I understand that it is hard for the church to not hear an argument for the law in any other way. I blame the church, not you.

All I can say, is that if you believe this you have not been in the churches that I have. Because they taught very much just the way you do.
Not ALL Protestant churches all believe and teach the same about the Law of Moses, especially the big 10 and they are ALL wrong, according to your posts. #183 is just one such post.

 

[JLB]

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:31 NASB)

Start explaining, JLB. Particularly the part about him only talking to Jews.

I've explained the passage several times. Your turn.

And don't bother talking about literal death penalties, Feasts, and Sabbaths, etc. I'm not saying he means we uphold those. We know from the rest of his teaching he doesn't mean those things (and keep those things in mind --death penalties, literal Days and Weeks, etc.--when you're formulating your answer that he's only talking to natural Jews, if you still believe that).

If your honest, I really believe you'll come to the same understanding of the passage that I have shared here.

Here's my explanation - , for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14

I have explained my position for about a year now.

The conclusion that I draw from this statement from Paul is: we are not under the law of Moses.

JLB

 

[JLB]

I guess your two posts would mean something if I was arguing that believers are under the literal law of Moses. But I understand that it is hard for the church to not hear an argument for the law in any other way. I blame the church, not you.

Is there something other than the literal law of Moses?

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All I can say, is that if you believe this you have not been in the churches that I have. Because they taught very much just the way you do.
Not ALL Protestant churches all believe and teach the same about the Law of Moses, especially the big 10 and they are ALL wrong, according to your posts. #183 is just one such post.

I've made it clear to you before that I speak generally of the church. I wish what I've been sharing here was more representative of what the church taught about the law. But as it is, what I'm opposing is by far the doctrine that represents the general understanding of the law in the church. I blame the church for propagating this misguided understanding of the law. We keep teaching it over and over and over to generation after generation to the point it is a hardened indoctrination.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here's my explanation - , for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14

I have explained my position for about a year now.

The conclusion that I draw from this statement from Paul is: we are not under the law of Moses.

JLB

I'm interested in how you come to the conclusion that 'we establish the law' means 'we are not under the law of Moses' (according to what 'under the law' means to you). You've never talked about that before.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is there something other than the literal law of Moses?

JLB

Paul says the law that cannot justify gets upheld in this New Covenant, so I guess there is. I've provided several NT examples of the non-literal fulfillment of the law of Moses.

 

[JLB]

Paul says the law that cannot justify gets upheld in this New Covenant, so I guess there is. I've provided several NT examples of the non-literal fulfillment of the law of Moses.

Paul says , we are not under the law... This needs no explanation!

No special Greek word explanations.

No special add a word here or there explanations.

Just plain and clear straight to the point Truth!


Christ came to redeem those under the law...

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:4-5


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm interested in how you come to the conclusion that 'we establish the law' means 'we are not under the law of Moses' (according to what 'under the law' means to you). You've never talked about that before.

We can discuss many things that pertain to the Church, and see how the Lord will lead us to agree on common ground.

So far, you agree that we are not in the covenant at Sinai.

That uncircumcised Gentiles are not under the law of Moses.


How about this one -

Righteous requirements in the law, does not mean the whole law, but rather righteous requirements that were in the law.

If Paul meant we were to keep the law of Moses, then why the term "righteous" requirements.

If "everything in the law were "righteous", then Paul would have said, requirements rather than "righteous" requirements.


Agree or disagree.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We can discuss many things that pertain to the Church, and see how the Lord will lead us to agree on common ground.

So far, you agree that we are not in the covenant at Sinai.

That uncircumcised Gentiles are not under the law of Moses.

NOBODY is 'under' the law of Moses. You can't get this because you, along with so many in the church, have missed what it is about the law of Moses that we are not under. Somewhere along the line, the church (in general, Deborah, lol) got indoctrinated that not being under the law meant you can tell someone to talk to the hand when someone suggests we might actually have to do anything in the law. Why? Because we're 'not under the law anymore'. That is hardly what Paul meant when the people of God are not under the law anymore.

If Paul meant we were to keep the law of Moses, then why the term "righteous" requirements.

I can't help but to think you are still firmly locked into the rut of thinking that 'keep the law of Moses' means the literal keeping of the law of Moses. It's a pretty hard rut of thinking to get people out of.

If "everything in the law were "righteous", then Paul would have said, requirements rather than "righteous" requirements.


Agree or disagree.

Disagree. Paul said the law is holy, righteous, and good.

I can't agree with anyone who says God's unrighteousness is shown in the law.

And remember, we saw that Paul did say, and mean, requirementS of the law.

 

[JLB]

NOBODY is 'under' the law of Moses. You can't get this because you, along with so many in the church, have missed what it is about the law of Moses that we are not under. Somewhere along the line, the church (in general, Deborah, lol) got indoctrinated that not being under the law meant you can tell someone to talk to the hand when someone suggests we might actually have to do anything in the law. Why? Because we're 'not under the law anymore'. That is hardly what Paul meant when the people of God are not under the law anymore.



I can't help but to think you are still firmly locked into the rut of thinking that 'keep the law of Moses' means the literal keeping of the law of Moses. It's a pretty hard rut of thinking to get people out of.



Disagree. Paul said the law is holy, righteous, and good.

Is it righteous to sacrifice animals for sin?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is it righteous to sacrifice animals for sin?


JLB

As long as it is not done to replace the sacrifice of Jesus, it's not unrighteous.

 

[Deborah13]

I think some people will argue anything just for the sake of arguing.

 

[JLB]

As long as it is not done to replace the sacrifice of Jesus, it's not unrighteous.

Is sacrificing an animal for a sin that you commit, as specified in the law of Moses righteous or unrighteous?

Yes or No?


JLB

 

[JLB]

As long as it is not done to replace the sacrifice of Jesus, it's not unrighteous.

43 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it. 44 But every man's servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it. 45 A sojourner and a hired servant shall not eat it. Exodus 12:43-45

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think some people will argue anything just for the sake of arguing.

And all I was looking for was this:

Jethro dun said this:
I'm interested in how you come to the conclusion that 'we establish the law' means 'we are not under the law of Moses' (according to what 'under the law' means to you). You've never talked about that before.

 

[Deborah13]

And all I was looking for was this:

Jethro dun said this:
I'm interested in how you come to the conclusion that 'we establish the law' means 'we are not under the law of Moses' (according to what 'under the law' means to you). You've never talked about that before.

I did, you didn't agree. So that's OK. I'll just snooze through this one.....