1 John 1: Against self-justifying doctrine

[Hopeful 2]

Of course. It goes without saying.

Doesn't it also 'go without saying' that those bringing forth evil fruit are not reborn of God's seed ? (1 John 3:9-10)

I am saying no such thing.

You should be, as sinners manifest with every sin that they have not repented of sin.

You are using circular reasoning by presuming that anyone who sins is not justified, reading that into the text, and then using it to conclude the same.

If it is untrue, break the 'circle'.

But, that is not at all what John says. No writer in the NT says that. What they do clearly say, mostly implicitly but also explicitly, is that true believers, those who have repented, turned to Christ, and are justified, continue to struggle with sin until they are glorified.

I will remind you of 1 John 3:10..."In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

For example: Jas 3:1
Even James says that "we all stumble in many ways." "Stumble" is the Greek word ptaio, which means "to trip, that is, (figuratively) to err, sin, fail (of salvation): - fall, offend, stumble" (Strong's). He then goes on to define what he means by those believers who bless God and curse others. But, his whole point is that the tongue and the injury it can do is the reason why few should seek to "become teachers."

James is illustrating that those born of God cannot manifest the devil's fruit.
You can't get sweet and salty water from the same source.

These sorts of warnings are all throughout the NT and are pointless if believers don't sin.

The warnings are there so we don't slip back into darkness/sin.
It would behoove all of us to take the warnings to heart.

Not at all. John clearly includes himself: 1Jn 1:1

If you could see that John is presenting two very different walks, you would see that men can only walk in God, who is the light, or in sin, which is darkness.
Pick one and stay there !
He doubles down in 1 John 2:3-6..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
Sinners don't know Him.
Sinners walk in darkness.
Sinners don't walk as He walked.
Quite the different circumstance from those walking in God-light.

As I have pointed out before, "we confess" is homologōmen, which is a verb in the form of present, subjunctive, active and is a first person plural. So, the first person plural is obvious--it's "we." But, the present, subjunctive, active indicates a command or wish that is to be an ongoing or habitual action to be performed by the "we." Also, "sins" is plural, which makes sense given that John tells all believers to continually confess.

The 'we' are those walking in need of repentance.
Their sin manifests they are not walking in the light-God, that they don't know God, and are unrepentant.
John also presents the 'we' who walk in the light-God, in 1 John 2:3-6.
Both are prefaced with "IF".
"IF" we walk in one condition, here is the result.
"IF" we walk in the other condition, here is the result.
Choose wisely the course you will walk !

This can all be verified by doing some study on what John actually wrote, instead of simply relying on a given translation, although some translations bring this out.

All of your study has resulted in a tolerance for sin, and justification for it.
I'll have none of it.

Start by looking at 1 John 1 here:
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_john/1.htm
And then look at Greek sources to find out what the mood, tense, voice, etc., all mean.

If you deny the above, your only option is to believe that John is telling unbelievers to continually confess their sins,

That is what you are inferring, with your continued refusal to believe man can walk in the light-God permanently.
John is telling men how to leave the darkness-sin forever.

which doesn't make sense since John says that God "is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

If we have been cleansed, and remain in the light-God, we won't be committing any sin.
And, we can say we know God, have fellowship with Him, and have no sin.

If God forgives just one time and then unbelievers are justified, then John is wrong that God will forgive and cleanse them, because if they must continually confess, they would never be justified. Your position makes no sense of what John actually wrote.

If they continue to manifest unrepentance from sin, they were never justified.
Those walking in darkness will be damned.

Sanctification is stated to be both something that happened at a point in time and an ongoing process. Sinless perfection is a doctrine of the devil that ignores much of the NT. Sinless perfection will only happen at glorification.

If 'it' has happened, why does it need to keep happening ?
To infer that being obedient to God all the time is a doctrine of the devil is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost who made perfect obedience to God possible by the death and resurrection of Christ.

According to John, those who aren’t true believers are those “believers” who say they are without sin.

You sure got that backwards.

Such are self-deceived and without the truth; they make God a liar and do not have his word in them. Why? Because it is to deny the reality of their own sin; it is to sin but say that it isn’t sin. It is to say that God is wrong for calling their actions sinful.

Your doctrine is without understanding.
It is a simple accommodation for sin, after Christ has already conquered it.

Context...
Again, context is not your friend; neither the immediate context, the greater context of 1 John, nor the context of Scripture. Case in point: 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

Context indeed.
The entire bible is about people rebelling against God and Him forgiving them.
Jesus terminated that scenario by remaining sinless while experiencing all that the world could throw at Him.
Jesus is my role model.
He could be yours too, if you would follow in His footsteps.

 

[Free]

Doesn't it also 'go without saying' that those bringing forth evil fruit are not reborn of God's seed ? (1 John 3:9-10)

First, define precisely what you mean by “evil fruit.” Second, as I’ve pointed out before, John is talking about that which is habitual and characteristic of a person, and which is not confessed as sin, seeing no need for forgiveness. Third, what do you think a seed is? It has been my experience that once planted, seeds take time to grow, and some take longer than others.

You should be, as sinners manifest with every sin that they have not repented of sin.

Again, you need to define your terms more clearly. If by “sinners” you mean those who have never repented and turned to Christ, those who are unbelievers, then of course they sin. Theirs is the life of habitual, wilful sin without feeling the need to confess.

If by “sinners” you are including true believers who are justified by God’s grace but still struggle with sin, then no.

It is worth noting that if someone thinks they are a believer, yet doesn’t feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit when they sin, and therefore do not confess, then they are not truly saved. One cannot have the Holy Spirit in them and not feel convicted when they sin. That is what essentially what John is getting at in 1 John 1:8-10.

If it is untrue, break the 'circle'.

It is on you to see the error in your reasoning and change it. I can only point it out.

I will remind you of 1 John 3:10..."In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)

James is illustrating that those born of God cannot manifest the devil's fruit.
You can't get sweet and salty water from the same source.

It is unnatural, yes, but in believers it is so, as he points out. It is an exhortation to believers to put off sin and live holy lives.

The warnings are there so we don't slip back into darkness/sin.
It would behoove all of us to take the warnings to heart.

The warnings are there clearly because believers continue to struggle with sin. They are exhortations to stop sinning and live holy lives, which shows that we have a cooperative part in living holy lives. That can only mean that we are not perfectly holy and sinless now.

If you could see that John is presenting two very different walks, you would see that men can only walk in God, who is the light, or in sin, which is darkness.
Pick one and stay there !

I don’t disagree at all. Believers walk in the light, not darkness, but we still struggle with sin. Since we are justified and redeemed, sin isn’t characteristic of us. But, when we do sin, we confess it to God, who then forgives us.

He doubles down in 1 John 2:3-6..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
Sinners don't know Him.
Sinners walk in darkness.
Sinners don't walk as He walked.
Quite the different circumstance from those walking in God-light.

First, again, define your terms. You are continually using it in a way that applies only to unbelievers and not believers who struggle with sin (which is every true believer). Second, 1 John 2:1 shows that John’s desire is that believers won’t sin, but he knows they will, and so says that Christ is our advocate before the Father. That is the basis for the continual confessing of our sins for forgiveness that he mentions in 1:9.

The 'we' are those walking in need of repentance.
Their sin manifests they are not walking in the light-God, that they don't know God, and are unrepentant.
John also presents the 'we' who walk in the light-God, in 1 John 2:3-6.

As I pointed out, which you have, I think, so far left unaddressed, is that John starts his letter with "we," "our," and "us" and continues that throughout. He clearly is including himself in all the "we" statements as well as the other disciples, which, by extension, includes all believers.

Both are prefaced with "IF".
"IF" we walk in one condition, here is the result.
"IF" we walk in the other condition, here is the result.
Choose wisely the course you will walk !

Exactly, so don't forget the "IF" statements from 1:8-2:1:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

All of your study has resulted in a tolerance for sin, and justification for it.
I'll have none of it.

Wilful ignorance is sin. John wrote what he wrote, in the Greek not English, so those who are interested in the truth of Scripture will look at the Greek as well. And, it means what it means, regardless of how much it disagrees with your position.

 

[Free]

That is what you are inferring, with your continued refusal to believe man can walk in the light-God permanently.
John is telling men how to leave the darkness-sin forever.

John is encouraging and exhorting believers to practice holiness and walk in the light, but nowhere does he say that we do so perfectly, in this life anyway.

If we have been cleansed, and remain in the light-God, we won't be committing any sin.

And, yet, John tells believers to continually be confessing their sins and they will receive God's forgiveness because Jesus is our advocate before the Father (1 John 1:9, 2:1).

And, we can say we know God, have fellowship with Him, and have no sin.

No, that is what John warns against. A person who claims to be without sin is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and his word is not in them (1 John 1:8, 10).

If they continue to manifest unrepentance from sin, they were never justified.
Those walking in darkness will be damned.

Of course.

If 'it' has happened, why does it need to keep happening ?

Read the Bible and find out.

To infer that being obedient to God all the time is a doctrine of the devil is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost who made perfect obedience to God possible by the death and resurrection of Christ.

Well, that's not what I said, right? This is what I said: "Sinless perfection is a doctrine of the devil that ignores much of the NT. Sinless perfection will only happen at glorification." Throughout the NT we are commanded and exhorted to be obedient and to live holy lives and refrain from sin, yet, all the writers know that all believers struggle with sin and will do so until glorification. That is precisely why they make those commands and exhortations in the first place and why much of their writing deals with sin in believers.

You sure got that backwards.

No, that is exactly what John is saying in 1 John 1:9.

Your doctrine is without understanding.
It is a simple accommodation for sin, after Christ has already conquered it.

No, it's based on reality and Scripture. Jesus conquered the power of sin, for those who believe, but each believer has many choices to make each day on whether or not they give in to temptation and sin. You sin all the time, just like everyone else, but hopefully are growing in holiness, sinning less and less as time goes by.

Context indeed.
The entire bible is about people rebelling against God and Him forgiving them.
Jesus terminated that scenario by remaining sinless while experiencing all that the world could throw at Him.
Jesus is my role model.
He could be yours too, if you would follow in His footsteps.

Only Jesus was sinless and only Jesus could ever be sinless in this life. Is he my role model? Of course, but nowhere does Jesus or any NT writer state that we can live perfectly sinless in this life. The law set the standard for the Israelites but no one could be made perfect and be justified by it. Jesus was our propitiatory sacrifice and fulfilled the law, so that we can be justified by faith and filled with the Holy Spirit, allowing us to do good works and strive for holiness.

 

[Hopeful 2]

First, define precisely what you mean by “evil fruit.”

The evil fruit is sin.

Second, as I’ve pointed out before, John is talking about that which is habitual and characteristic of a person, and which is not confessed as sin, seeing no need for forgiveness.

No, he is not.
Some accommodator of sin made that interpretation up to both keep his own sin, and to keep others in bondage to the devil.

Third, what do you think a seed is? It has been my experience that once planted, seeds take time to grow, and some take longer than others.

It is the word of God.
God's seed, and every other kind of seed can only bring forth after itself.
As apple seeds will never bring forth onions, so too, God's seed will never bring forth liars, adulterers, or thieves.

Again, you need to define your terms more clearly. If by “sinners” you mean those who have never repented and turned to Christ, those who are unbelievers, then of course they sin. Theirs is the life of habitual, wilful sin without feeling the need to confess.

By "sinner", I means someone who commits a sin.
All sinners are unbelievers.
If they believed, they would realize the penalty they will receive on the day of judgement.

If by “sinners” you are including true believers who are justified by God’s grace but still struggle with sin, then no.

True believers don't commit sin.
True believers have cast off the flesh, and walk in the Spirit.

It is worth noting that if someone thinks they are a believer, yet doesn’t feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit when they sin, and therefore do not confess, then they are not truly saved. One cannot have the Holy Spirit in them and not feel convicted when they sin. That is what essentially what John is getting at in 1 John 1:8-10

If they need to confess a sin, the sin manifests that they are not born of God's seed.
One cannot have the Holy Spirit in them, and commit sin.

It is on you to see the error in your reasoning and change it. I can only point it out.

There is no error in the fact that God's seed cannot bring forth liars, murderers, or thieves.

1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)

As I said..."I will remind you of 1 John 3:10..."In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
All the unregenerated "practice" sin.
If they had ever actually "ceased from sin", your point might be worth considering, but they never quit sinning in the first place, so their entire life is "in sin".

It is unnatural, yes, but in believers it is so, as he points out. It is an exhortation to believers to put off sin and live holy lives.

So believers are not "natural" ?
If one still needs to put off sin, or the "flesh", they are not believers.
They are the not yet regenerated.

The warnings are there clearly because believers continue to struggle with sin.

Believers don't struggle with sin.
The struggle for those reborn of God, is temptation.
But we have plenty of help with that.
1 Cor 10:13 comes to mind, and James 4:7 too.

They are exhortations to stop sinning and live holy lives, which shows that we have a cooperative part in living holy lives. That can only mean that we are not perfectly holy and sinless now.

How can you say that, and still deny we can stop sinning ?
The exhortations are to be obeyed by those with the Spirit of God in them.
Those without the Spirit will continue to walk after the "flesh".

I don’t disagree at all. Believers walk in the light, not darkness, but we still struggle with sin.

Then you do disagree.
Believers walk in the light, but not in darkness.
Walking in darkness manifests unbelief.

Since we are justified and redeemed, sin isn’t characteristic of us. But, when we do sin, we confess it to God, who then forgives us.

Confess and be baptized, then one can walk in God, who is the light.
Sinners walk in darkness.
They don't know God.
They have no fellowship with God.
THEY cannot say they have no sin.

First, again, define your terms. You are continually using it in a way that applies only to unbelievers and not believers who struggle with sin (which is every true believer).

You are again leaning on the interpretations of those who accommodate sin.
God is the light.
There is no sin in God.
There can be no sin in those in God.

Second, 1 John 2:1 shows that John’s desire is that believers won’t sin, but he knows they will,

That is the accommodators of sin's interpretation, not John's or the Holy Spirit's

and so says that Christ is our advocate before the Father. That is the basis for the continual confessing of our sins for forgiveness that he mentions in 1:9.

If continued confession is necessary, a continued walk in darkness is also manifested.

As I pointed out, which you have, I think, so far left unaddressed, is that John starts his letter with "we," "our," and "us" and continues that throughout. He clearly is including himself in all the "we" statements as well as the other disciples, which, by extension, includes all believers.

You must have misread it.
He starts his scenarios with "IF".
IF we walk in darkness, these are the results...verses 6, 8, and 10.
IF we walk in the light, these are the results...verses 5, 7, and 9 to start it off.

Exactly, so don't forget the "IF" statements from 1:8-2:1:
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

So don't walk in darkness !!!

Willful ignorance is sin. John wrote what he wrote, in the Greek not English, so those who are interested in the truth of Scripture will look at the Greek as well. And, it means what it means, regardless of how much it disagrees with your position.

Wouldn't that be the truth Jesus said could free us from sinning, in John 8:32-34 ?
How come what you present doesn't free us from service to sin ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

John is encouraging and exhorting believers to practice holiness and walk in the light, but nowhere does he say that we do so perfectly, in this life anyway.

So, to you, John is exhorting the impossible.

And, yet, John tells believers to continually be confessing their sins and they will receive God's forgiveness because Jesus is our advocate before the Father (1 John 1:9, 2:1).

Only those walking in darkness commit sin.
It is written..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:4-6)
It is those who don't abide in Jesus that still commit sin.

No, that is what John warns against. A person who claims to be without sin is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and his word is not in them (1 John 1:8, 10).

Your sin accommodating interpreter just keeps insisting that there is sin in God-light.
He is a liar.

Of course.

So why do you call them believers ?

Read the Bible and find out.

If one has been sanctified, why do they need to be sanctified again ?
The NT believers are not walking in the "flesh" like the OT's believers were.

well, that's not what I said, right?

It is the end of the accommodator's of sins doctrine.
There intention is to keep people in bondage to sin.
A bondage man has been freed from by the resurrection of Christ.

This is what I said: "Sinless perfection is a doctrine of the devil that ignores much of the NT. Sinless perfection will only happen at glorification." Throughout the NT we are commanded and exhorted to be obedient and to live holy lives and refrain from sin, yet, all the writers know that all believers struggle with sin and will do so until glorification. That is precisely why they make those commands and exhortations in the first place and why much of their writing deals with sin in believers. as ipossible to adhere to.

The devilish accommodators of sin have caused you to see the exhortations and commands for obedience as intolerable.

No, that is exactly what John is saying in 1 John 1:9.

Confession of past sins always comes before cleansing of sins.
But once made clean, and able to say you have no sin, it is possible to remain permanently in God...who is the light.

No, it's based on reality and Scripture. Jesus conquered the power of sin, for those who believe, but each believer has many choices to make each day on whether or not they give in to temptation and sin. You sin all the time, just like everyone else, but hopefully are growing in holiness, sinning less and less as time goes by.

True believers have been equipt to reject all temptations.
Walking in and after the Spirit is a choice real believers make all the time.
All the time.
Only those walking in and after the "flesh" still commit sin.

Only Jesus was sinless and only Jesus could ever be sinless in this life. Is he my role model? Of course, but nowhere does Jesus or any NT writer state that we can live perfectly sinless in this life.

Perhaps, that is the problem..."this life".
Fortunately, we don't live "this life" after being reborn from God's seed.
We live the life He died to make possible.
"His life".

The law set the standard for the Israelites but no one could be made perfect and be justified by it.

Nobody walking in the "flesh" could keep the Law.
Believers walk in the Spirit and not in the "flesh".
The "flesh" has been destroyed, (Rom 6:6), crucified with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

Jesus was our propitiatory sacrifice and fulfilled the law, so that we can be justified by faith and filled with the Holy Spirit, allowing us to do good works and strive for holiness.

That is true: but too many preach against that, accommodating ongoing, unending sinfulness.
Even using biblical misinterpretations to solidify the devil's hold on people who don't really want to quit sinning.

 

[RBDERRICK]

How I saw salvation?

Exactly. There be as many salvations as there are gospels, as to how sinners see it by their own faith alone.

Psalms
{12:3} The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, [and] the tongue that speaketh proud things: {12:4} Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips [are] our own: who [is] lord over us?

They openly speak from their own words alone, as though the Lord cares how we 'see it'.

There is only one gospel, salvation, sanctfication, and justification seen by the Father on earth: Sinful man repenting from all sins and trespasses for Jesus and their own soul's sake.

Ezek
{18:30} Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Acts
{3:19} Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Regeneration/Justification- Belief in who Jesus is with intent to follow.

A perfect example the gospel of good intentions: believing alone and intending only.

"Believe to be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that ye may intend to repent later at your own will, pace, and convenience."

The gospel of good intentions is not the gospel of the righteous Lord Jesus Christ.

Even the world knows good intentions, like faith alone, is worthless to God and man.

"Good intentions are the reserved excuses for failure."

"A buck twenty-five, and good intentions, won't even get you a cup of coffee today."

Isaiah
{36:6} Lo, thou trustest in the staff of this broken reed, on Egypt; whereon if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so [is] Pharaoh king of Egypt to all that trust in him.

Noting: Looking at the above statement, if one knows that repentance is: to rethink your thinking then if they have believed who Jesus was with intent to follow they have already repented.

God knows what His commanded repntance is, and sinful man only knows what his own version of repentance. Even as God knows the faith of Jesus, and sinful man knows only his own faith alone.

Faith alone with mind repentance only, is being hearers of the word by not doers.

{55:7} Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Like God's faith to always do His will, is not man's faith alone, so is His repentance always from thoughts and ways, not with thoughts alone.

Mind only is unrepentance toward God, even as faith alone is unbelief toward God:

Heb
{6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

The righteous Lord's gift of saving faith, is only given to the few that do repent from their own dead works.

Anything less than God's whole repentance and faith, is man's own faith and repentance alone.

Sinful man's progressively better homes and garden varity of religion, is not God's pure religion in Christ Jesus.

John prepared the way for people to receive their king with the right heart.

By repenting from their own sins and trespasses.

Luke
{3:8} Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. {3:9} And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mark
{1:15} And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Less than god's commanded repentance, is only unto beliefe in another gospel of sinful man's own mind.

......
Next I said after one receives the Spirit, they can walk by it.

The spirit one recieves, is the spirit one walks by. Even has the faith one has, is the faith one walks by.

The unrepented children of disobedience receive the spirit of error, and walk by their own faith alone.

Eph
{2:1} And you [hath he quickened,] who were dead in trespasses and sins; {2:2} Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The faith and Spirit of Jesus Christ is only recieved by them that repent of sinning for His sake, and so they walk as He walked after the Spirit of holiness.

Collosians
{2:6} As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:

This being sanctification.

1 Cor
{6:11} And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The sanctification of Jesus Christ is as His justification: at once and completely separated from sinning against Him.

The progressive sanctification of progressive repentance, that is never complete on earth, is sinful man's by his own faith alone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

......
Sadly RBDERRICK you could not see that I am not against Repentance.

No man, except the reprobate, is against any repentance at all. It's the lukewarm that are against whole repentance from all sinning.

All doctrine of progressive incomplete repentance, is against God's commanded present repentance from all our transgressions.

One's own faith alone to continue sinning, is against Jesus' faith to only do that which pleases God.

Any faith, repentance, and sanctfication that is not God's in Scripture, and is preached instead of God's, is against God's one and only way of repentance, faith, and sanctification by Jesus Christ.

2 Cor
{5:20} Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Instead of being ambassadors in Christ's stead, preaching repentance from dead works to be reconciled with God, the lukewarm repenters preach another more pleasing christ of their own, instead of Jesus Christ the righteous.

It's the less demanding gospel of lukewarm works.

The difference in our beliefs are you receice the Holy Spirit when you never sin again

It's not possible for any unrepented sinner to rightly frame the gospel of repentance unto salvation. By hardness of heart, they willingly remain blind to repenting from all their own sinning, that they too may recieve Jesus' saving faith to sin not.

When the heart is hardened to repentance from all sinning, the heart remains blind to the good news and blessedness of not sinning against Jesus Christ.

Psalms
{106:3} Blessed [are] they that keep judgment, [and] he that doeth righteousness at all times.

No man is justified by repentance alone, even as not by faith alone.

Only them that repent from sinning for Jesus' sake, recieve the faith and Spirit of Christ, with power to walk as He walked, and sin not against Him.

No man earns the gift of the Spirit by only changing his ways, nor by only believing in it, but we only recieve the Spirit by grace, when changing all our thoughts and ways for Jesus' sake alone.

1 Cor
{9:25} And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

And I, as the scripture says in Ephesians 2 being dead in sin was quicken together with Christ.
Therefore a dead person can't make themselves alive.

Correct, because repenting of sinning, for any other purpose than Christ Jesus, does not make one alive to God by the Spirit of Christ.

A man creted in the image of God can repent of all his past ways by power of will alone, but if not for the sake of Jesus, it's no doubt better in this life, by all in vain for eternity.

1 Cor
{13:3} And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor,] and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

"Man can do all manner of things in this life, but only what is done for Jesus Christ will last..."

Belief in who Jesus is makes one alive.

And no unrepented man is alive in Christ Jesus, while sinning against Him. Including repenting from any all sinning he sets his mind to...

1 John
{3:5} And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. {3:6} Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

The rebuke of I john 1 is against the unrepented and half-repented sinners' gospel lie, of walking with Jesus Christ in the light, while doing works of darkness in the flesh.

He did not save us by any works of righteousness we had done.

Exactly. Which is recieving another spirit and christ by the good will of our own faith alone.

Especially when naming the name of Christ, and departing from only some iniquity in our own good time.

But through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Spirit

With repentance from all our sins and trespasses, solely for Jesus and our own soul's sake.

Rev
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; {3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Jesus Christ knows exactly what we are believing and intending, by the works we do.

Man can separate his soul, faith, salvation, sanctification, justification from his own works in this life, but all such separation ends in the grave.

God will judge every one of us by works, and not by our own beliefs and intents.
Heb
{9:27} And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

1 peter
{1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

 

[RBDERRICK]

You seem to be pushy like bullying and it's just not an acceptable act of one who preaches sinless perfection.

DISCLAIMER:
If anyone cannot objectively argue their doctrine with another, without being offended by rebuttal from another, then do not address nor reply to me. Thank you.

Or, as they say, if we can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen.

Like one man's treasure is another man's trash, so one man's correction is another man's bullying.

Jerem
{3:7} But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel [are] impudent and hardhearted. {3:8} Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. {3:9} As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they [be] a rebellious house.

Galatians
{1:10} For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

 

[Corinth77777]

John is encouraging and exhorting believers to practice holiness and walk in the light, but nowhere does he say that we do so perfectly, in this life anyway.


And, yet, John tells believers to continually be confessing their sins and they will receive God's forgiveness because Jesus is our advocate before the Father (1 John 1:9, 2:1).


No, that is what John warns against. A person who claims to be without sin is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and his word is not in them (1 John 1:8, 10).


Of course.


Read the Bible and find out.


Well, that's not what I said, right? This is what I said: "Sinless perfection is a doctrine of the devil that ignores much of the NT. Sinless perfection will only happen at glorification." Throughout the NT we are commanded and exhorted to be obedient and to live holy lives and refrain from sin, yet, all the writers know that all believers struggle with sin and will do so until glorification. That is precisely why they make those commands and exhortations in the first place and why much of their writing deals with sin in believers.


No, that is exactly what John is saying in 1 John 1:9.


No, it's based on reality and Scripture. Jesus conquered the power of sin, for those who believe, but each believer has many choices to make each day on whether or not they give in to temptation and sin. You sin all the time, just like everyone else, but hopefully are growing in holiness, sinning less and less as time goes by.


Only Jesus was sinless and only Jesus could ever be sinless in this life. Is he my role model? Of course, but nowhere does Jesus or any NT writer state that we can live perfectly sinless in this life. The law set the standard for the Israelites but no one could be made perfect and be justified by it. Jesus was our propitiatory sacrifice and fulfilled the law, so that we can be justified by faith and filled with the Holy Spirit, allowing us to do good works and strive for holiness.

I think I see both aspects of the argument.
And I agree more on your end.

As is written to the little children we have an advocate with the father.

And there is a difference between having a relationship vs Having fellowship. I believe one is not only convicted when they sin, And not in this order, but after being touched with life from above if they are granted repentance will repent.

I believe being able to get back up allows one to grow and move forward.

Israel was God's chosen and always called them His Children and if they obeyed they stayed in a specific grace, and if not they had no fellowship.

Now a good question is what does it mean to believe Jesus is the Christ? As Peter I believe God has to reveal Christ to you in one way or another. Therefore belief in Christ Saves. Jesus if I am correct said it was the father that did the drawing. And who might you think He draws according to scriptures?

So yes Faith in who Jesus is saves, but it is said, as in James that saving faith is never alone. It will produce works.

Therefore it is possible that when it says one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God its because God Himself did the drawing.



So what does it mean to be in Christ. My guess is to practice his teachings.

For if we hold to His teachings we will know the truth and the truth will set us free.

(A)So what do you figure happens when you sin?
My guess- seperation- the fellowship is broken but not the relationship.

And we know Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil- Just maybe the consequence of the devils work is separation. Or even Guilt ridden conscience.

But back to part (A) recall that Jesus can say I never knew you. But would He say that to someone who believed who He was and got back up and repented?

Maybe this might answer the question: in Hebrews where the writer spoke in such away but said God would not forget their works.

I believe one is Justified positionally - but to live out that call.

And when you live according to your call you make your call and elect sure.

Therefore you know what you have when you walk in it.
It's impossible to please God without faith. The faith that works/ moves by Love.

And Faith in my thought is moving in what we say we believe. And our faith is grown. Someone once said knowledge + experience = Wisdom

Now if one remains in Christ you can be sure that God promises He will keep because He is faithful to those who keep His commands. Noting, that we do not uphold The LAW by our power but through the faithfullness of Christ who lives forever to interceed on the behalf of those who come to Him.

Scripture says even the Holy Spirit teaches us to remain in Him. To remain in the Father's Love, I believe is to remain in the teaching of His son which is to practice his precepts daily. For what we practice is what we become inward change then comes the outward.

 

[Corinth77777]

I think I see both aspects of the argument.
And I agree more on your end.

As is written to the little children we have an advocate with the father.

And there is a difference between having a relationship vs Having fellowship. I believe one is not only convicted when they sin, And not in this order, but after being touched with life from above if they are granted repentance will repent.

I believe being able to get back up allows one to grow and move forward.

Israel was God's chosen and always called them His Children and if they obeyed they stayed in a specific grace, and if not they had no fellowship.

Now a good question is what does it mean to believe Jesus is the Christ? As Peter I believe God has to reveal Christ to you in one way or another. Therefore belief in Christ Saves. Jesus if I am correct said it was the father that did the drawing. And who might you think He draws according to scriptures?

So yes Faith in who Jesus is saves, but it is said, as in James that saving faith is never alone. It will produce works.

Therefore it is possible that when it says one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God its because God Himself did the drawing.



So what does it mean to be in Christ. My guess is to practice his teachings.

For if we hold to His teachings we will know the truth and the truth will set us free.

(A)So what do you figure happens when you sin?
My guess- seperation- the fellowship is broken but not the relationship.

And we know Jesus came to destroy the works of the Devil- Just maybe the consequence of the devils work is separation. Or even Guilt ridden conscience.

But back to part (A) recall that Jesus can say I never knew you. But would He say that to someone who believed who He was and got back up and repented?

Maybe this might answer the question: in Hebrews where the writer spoke in such away but said God would not forget their works.

I believe one is Justified positionally - but to live out that call.

And when you live according to your call you make your call and elect sure.

Therefore you know what you have when you walk in it.
It's impossible to please God without faith. The faith that works/ moves by Love.

And Faith in my thought is moving in what we say we believe. And our faith is grown. Someone once said knowledge + experience = Wisdom

Now if one remains in Christ you can be sure that God promises He will keep because He is faithful to those who keep His commands. Noting, that we do not uphold The LAW by our power but through the faithfullness of Christ who lives forever to interceed on the behalf of those who come to Him.

Scripture says even the Holy Spirit teaches us to remain in Him. To remain in the Father's Love, I believe is to remain in the teaching of His son which is to practice his precepts daily. For what we practice is what we become inward change then comes the outward.

The Question is: what is the Goal? IS THE GOAL HEAVEN WHEN WE DIE? OR HAS THAT ALREADY BEEN ACCOMPLISHED?

And I believe in a specific way it is heaven when we die. Another words when we surrender our lives to God we have Died, and the kingdom is open to us. That means that if needed we are able to draw from heavens authority; therefore we say " In Jesus Name"

So the Goal isn't necessarily one view-heaven when you physically die, but to get heaven in you now. And as Hebrews says in my own words "tasted the goodness of God and the power of the world to come." Which gives me the thought that the ideal of being sealed with the Spirit as a down payment is assurance that God is faithful.

 

[Corinth77777]

The Question is: what is the Goal? IS THE GOAL HEAVEN WHEN WE DIE? OR HAS THAT ALREADY BEEN ACCOMPLISHED?

And I believe in a specific way it is heaven when we die. Another words when we surrender our lives to God we have Died, and the kingdom is open to us. That means that if needed we are able to draw from heavens authority; therefore we say " In Jesus Name"

So the Goal isn't necessarily one view-heaven when you physically die, but to get heaven in you now. And as Hebrews says in my own words "tasted the goodness of God and the power of the world to come." Which gives me the thought that the ideal of being sealed with the Spirit as a down payment is assurance that God is faithful.

In the End the big question is when does the Spirit live in you. When do you receive the Spirit that lives in you? And does the Spirit leave.

And from my understanding I believe like God did His son.

I do have one thought but I'm sure I may be wrong.

That is that the word becomes Spirit and Life as you learn to obey by living not in accords with the flesh but the Spirit..So as long as His words abide in you and you in them you can bring forth fruit. That's just one thought

 

[Corinth77777]

DISCLAIMER:
If anyone cannot objectively argue their doctrine with another, without being offended by rebuttal from another, then do not address nor reply to me. Thank you.

Or, as they say, if we can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen.

Like one man's treasure is another man's trash, so one man's correction is another man's bullying.

Jerem
{3:7} But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel [are] impudent and hardhearted. {3:8} Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. {3:9} As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they [be] a rebellious house.

Galatians
{1:10} For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

I can get offended, I can't stand heat- and you still proven yourself to bully. Maybe if you cooked food with love and stop making sandwiches with no meat the kitchen would get hot.

one man's trash can be another's treasure and your type of correction is bullying.


Because there was nothing needed to correct. You just take it that people must say things your way even when what is being addressed is not referring to the lense you are viewing through.

So take some correction and humble yourself and stop bullying.

 

[Corinth77777]

No man, except the reprobate, is against any repentance at all. It's the lukewarm that are against whole repentance from all sinning.

All doctrine of progressive incomplete repentance, is against God's commanded present repentance from all our transgressions.

One's own faith alone to continue sinning, is against Jesus' faith to only do that which pleases God.

Any faith, repentance, and sanctfication that is not God's in Scripture, and is preached instead of God's, is against God's one and only way of repentance, faith, and sanctification by Jesus Christ.

2 Cor
{5:20} Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Instead of being ambassadors in Christ's stead, preaching repentance from dead works to be reconciled with God, the lukewarm repenters preach another more pleasing christ of their own, instead of Jesus Christ the righteous.

Who are these " luke warm" people who don't preach repentance? Where are they?



And why do "you" say they are not ambassadors?

Why do you say they preach another Christ of their own?








Now I remember why I do not like you.

I was sharing a testimony about what God did for me opening up, putting my life out there and you start rambling on with what you didn't see.

As if you were God and my testimony was not real. WELL I THANK GOD, THAT God IS GOD.

The question you need to ask yourself is have you repented if you still trying to play God.


Couldn't you be the luke warm?

People don't care what you have to say until they know how much you care.

Your attacks are just what they are bullying
So you been told 3 times. A wise man will receives good council.

Here is what scripture says:


Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

 

[journeyman]

Everyone here seems to agree that God alone should be glorified, but then we begin to point at one another. We are all guilty of hypocrisy. He gave the law to show each of us how in need we all are of Gods' mercy.

 

[journeyman]

I meant to add,

He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. Jn.8:7 KJV

Only our Savior could cast that stone but He showed mercy. So who are we not to?

 

[journeyman]

There's a passage which says,

...Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jde.1:9 KJV

The devil accuses us to condemn us, but he is under condemnation himself. Paul said,
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; Rom.3:9 KJV

Peter said,
Now therefore whytempt ye God, to put a yoke uponthe neck of the disciples, whichneither our fathers nor we were ableto bear? Act.15:10

They all taught that only God has the right to condemn others and although Jesus spoke of coming judgement, He never condemned any individual.

 

[journeyman]

Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above... Jn.19:10-11

And he said unto them...Ye are from beneath; I am from above Jn.8:23 KJV

Pilate didn't know that. He didn't undesrand that he was in the presence of the King of kings.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I think I see both aspects of the argument.
And I agree more on your end.
As is written to the little children we have an advocate with the father.

"We" who know God have an advocate for those who have not yet used that advocate.
How do we know we know Him ?
It is written..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4)

And there is a difference between having a relationship vs Having fellowship.

How do you define 'relationship' ?

I believe one is not only convicted when they sin, And not in this order, but after being touched with life from above if they are granted repentance will repent.

Then those who won't repent have not been granted repentance, and have not been 'touched from above'.
Aren't the unrepentant all sinners ?
So all sinners are unrepentant !
Thanks be to God they can all quit sinning when they will submit to God.

I believe being able to get back up allows one to grow and move forward.

Maybe the next repentance from sin will be the real one.
It isn't a matter of practicing repentance from sin, but of committal to a life pleasing to God.

Israel was God's chosen and always called them His Children and if they obeyed they stayed in a specific grace, and if not they had no fellowship.

God's pattern prevails today too.

Now a good question is what does it mean to believe Jesus is the Christ? As Peter I believe God has to reveal Christ to you in one way or another. Therefore belief in Christ Saves. Jesus if I am correct said it was the father that did the drawing. And who might you think He draws according to scriptures?

Sounds like a new thread !

So yes Faith in who Jesus is saves, but it is said, as in James that saving faith is never alone. It will produce works.

Agreed, and those works will not be sinful.

Therefore it is possible that when it says one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God its because God Himself did the drawing.

Belief provokes actions.
Can you kill, steal, or lie, and still claim belief ?
I don't think so.

So what does it mean to be in Christ. My guess is to practice his teachings.

AMEN !!!!

For if we hold to His teachings we will know the truth and the truth will set us free.

Absolutely !

(A)So what do you figure happens when you sin?
My guess- seperation- the fellowship is broken but not the relationship.

If you define relationship as "of the same father", a sin will show that God is not your father.
The break in fellowship was destined and unavoidable.

But back to part (A) recall that Jesus can say I never knew you. But would He say that to someone who believed who He was and got back up and repented?

He would, if the repentance is at last, real.

Maybe this might answer the question: in Hebrews where the writer spoke in such away but said God would not forget their works.

He won't forget, if the works are not evil.

I believe one is Justified positionally - but to live out that call. (sic)

"I believe one is justified positionally - but...has...to live out that call".
Agreed.

And when you live according to your call you make your call and elect sure.
Therefore you know what you have when you walk in it.
It's impossible to please God without faith. The faith that works/ moves by Love.
And Faith in my thought is moving in what we say we believe. And our faith is grown. Someone once said knowledge + experience = Wisdom

Agreed.

Now if one remains in Christ you can be sure that God promises He will keep because He is faithful to those who keep His commands. Noting, that we do not uphold The LAW by our power but through the faithfullness of Christ who lives forever to interceed on the behalf of those who come to Him.

It all hinges on remaining in Christ !

Scripture says even the Holy Spirit teaches us to remain in Him. To remain in the Father's Love, I believe is to remain in the teaching of His son which is to practice his precepts daily. For what we practice is what we become inward change then comes the outward.

Yep: love God with all your heart, mind, and soul...and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
We can't do that by telling lies, stealing, killing, or committing adultery.

 

[Corinth77777]

"We" who know God have an advocate for those who have not yet used that advocate.
How do we know we know Him ?
It is written..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4)

How do you define 'relationship' ?

Then those who won't repent have not been granted repentance, and have not been 'touched from above'.
Aren't the unrepentant all sinners ?
So all sinners are unrepentant !
Thanks be to God they can all quit sinning when they will submit to God.

Maybe the next repentance from sin will be the real one.
It isn't a matter of practicing repentance from sin, but of committal to a life pleasing to God.

God's pattern prevails today too.

Sounds like a new thread !

Agreed, and those works will not be sinful.

Belief provokes actions.
Can you kill, steal, or lie, and still claim belief ?
I don't think so.

AMEN !!!!

Absolutely !

If you define relationship as "of the same father", a sin will show that God is not your father.
The break in fellowship was destined and unavoidable.

He would, if the repentance is at last, real.

He won't forget, if the works are not evil.

"I believe one is justified positionally - but...has...to live out that call".
Agreed.

Agreed.

It all hinges on remaining in Christ !

Yep: love God with all your heart, mind, and soul...and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
We can't do that by telling lies, stealing, killing, or committing adultery.

The only thing written here I would like you to prove is that if a person committs a sin God is not their father.

For even the prodical son went astray but His father did not give Him up. And that is a parable.

Israel who are called His people, called by His name are called - "my people"

Lets see if there are scriptures that prove the above:


My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

1 John

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Abraham lied said His wife was His sister, by ommission...did God Father Him?

 

[Hopeful 2]

-10The only thing written here I would like you to prove is that if a person commits a sin God is not their father.

The best proof would be 1 John 3:9-10..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

For even the prodical son went astray but His father did not give Him up. And that is a parable.

The father in that case did consider his son "dead".
Until the son returned, repentantly, he remained dead.

Israel who are called His people, called by His name are called - "my people"
Lets see if there are scriptures that prove the above:
My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

I am glad you provided the results of any chastisement..."but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."
Those producing righteous fruit aren't still being chastised...are they ?

1 John
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Thanks be to God for that.
Had I not used that advocate, I would still be a servant of sin. (John 8:34)

Abraham lied said His wife was His sister, by ommission...did God Father Him?

No, He did not.
Unless you are just saying that all descendants of Adam were fathered by God.
But Adam wasn't fathered at all.
He was created.

Do you think Jesus suffered and died for our sins just to let us return to them ?