If not, you'll see her in heaven some day.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security
- Thread starter FreeGrace
- Start date
Why haven't you kept up with what I have posted? I already explained what "hold fast" means in the Greek. Unlike your opinion that it means to keep believing. It means to possess. Those who believe possess the Word. They possess salvation. They possess eternal life.
And the Bible describes both salvation and eternal life as gifts of God.
Salvation is a gift in Eph 2:8 and eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23.
And since no one has yet shown from Scripture that one can UN-possess salvation or eternal life, the very idea is ludicrous.
Whether anyone else believes in vain has NO EFFECT on anyone else. iow, it does NOT 'make it so..." anything.
So the question is invalid.
Ask a valid question, and I will gladly answer it.
dirtfarmer
Member
hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here
1 Corinthians 15:16-19 " For if the dead rise not, then Christ is not raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."
Vain faith is not losing your salvation after you have been saved, but is not believing in the bodily resurrection. If you want to believe that your salvation is not secure in Christ, as scripture tells us, your faith is in a works salvation and not a faith salvation.
Yes, God has not rejected His people, which by context is the Jews.
The gifts and calling of God is still available to them, and God will indeed graft them back in again, "IF" they do not continue in unbelief.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:21-27
By saying "graft them back in again", the Holy Spirit is indicating that they have been "removed".
The very thing that you keep denying.
Paul also states that the Gentiles can also be removed.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Romans 11 teaches the undeniable truth that those who do not continue, but fall into unbelief can be removed.
JLB
On the contrary, Paul is contrasting the Gentiles and Jews.
However, the direct context of Romans 11:29 refers to Jews who have rejected Jesus as Messiah.
These Jews still have the calling unto repentance available to them, meaning God has not rejected them.
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Romans 11:28-32
In the direct context, the surrounding verse's, they, these, them and their, refer to the unbelieving Jews.
Verse 29 is sandwiched in between these references to the Jews that have rejected the Gospel, who still have the "calling" of the Gospel and the gifts that come with it, still available to them, showing that God has not rejected His people.
Paul is writing this to the Church, and is warning them not to be "haughty", because of what happened to the Jews who were "removed" because they fell into unbelief, because the same thing could happen to "you".
Which is what Jesus warns His disciples about "anyone" who does not abide in Him.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
JLB
chessman
Member
True.
Romans 11:1, 7, 13, 25, 28-32 (LEB) Therefore I say, God has not rejected his people, has he? May it never be!
...
For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. What then? What Israel was searching for, this it did not obtain. But the elect obtained it, and the rest were hardened, Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry, For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, With respect to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you formerly were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of the disobedience of these, so also these have now been disobedient for your mercy, in order that they also may now be shown mercy. For God confined them all in disobedience, in order that he could have mercy on them all.
In the direct context of the surrounding verses brothers, your and you refer to the believing Gentile brothers of Paul (a Jew)....
For I also am an Israelite, from the descendants of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. What then? What Israel was searching for, this it did not obtain. But the elect obtained it, and the rest were hardened, Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry, For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, With respect to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you formerly were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of the disobedience of these, so also these have now been disobedient for your mercy, in order that they also may now be shown mercy. For God confined them all in disobedience, in order that he could have mercy on them all.
In the direct context of the surrounding verses His people, the elect, also and all refer to ALL HIS PEOPLE (Jew and Gentile brothers, the election)
Verse 29 is sandwiched in between these references to the Gentiles, who still have the "calling" of the Gospel and the gifts that come with it, showing that God has not rejected His people. NEVER!
Mustard Socks
Member
Sure. But it doesn't seem to get through to those opposed to it. Maybe if it is repeated God willing that will change?
Mustard Socks
Member
I didn't know you were Jewish.
Mustard Socks
Member
Timely, no?
Mustard Socks
Member
There is no such thing as hyper-grace in scripture. There is God's grace and eternal irrevocable salvation. The argument that Jesus died to fulfill the eternal Father's will and foreknowledge as to whom would accept his grace gift of eternal salvation is false. Always has been , always will be.
Jesus didn't die to give temporary life that could be revoked by the stronger will of the mortals made alive in their redemption, so that they could choose to return to the dead in their sins.
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Those who received the Gospel message, the word by which they were saved, ... will indeed be saved if the hold fast that word that was preached to them.
Exactly what Jesus taught in the Gospels.
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15
Same Greek word as used in 1 Corinthians, which describes the same principle.
Holding hast or keeping presently, to the end, is how a person is saved.
Those who do not continue to believe, or do not continue to hold fast the word, but rather, fall away into unbelief, will be "cut off", as Romans 11 so plainly teaches.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Romans 11:19-24
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
I am continuing to believe that I am justified by the blood of Christ apart from my works. Therefore, I am securely in Christ and saved. It's when I stop believing and step outside of Christ's covering that I am subject to the destroying angel. So salvation is very secure in non-OSAS.
Can you back this up with chapter and verse? Where does the Bible say having faith is a works salvation????
Listen to yourself. You are literally saying having faith is a works salvation.
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2
Those who are in Him for a while, then removed from Him, no longer have the eternal life that comes from knowing Christ.
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3
JLB
Mustard Socks
Member
The good news of Jesus Christ is eternal , not transitional by our will being greater than the Father that called us to him by his grace.
I think their point is, it is your argument that is works based.
From the read of it that sounds like your argument. Because you claim we can work to lose our salvation by choice that is greater than the will of the Father and his grace.
dirtfarmer
Member
dirtfarmer here
The crux of understanding Romans 11 is verse 30-31 : " for as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so, have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."
In times ye in times past: gentiles. The earthly kingdom was promised to Abraham in that God promised to make him a nation: Genesis 12:2. In Genesis 15 we find that God also promised Abram that a heavenly people would also come through him. In Genesis 21:1-2 we know that Isaac was the son of promise (faith) being that Sarai and Abram were beyond the age for child bearing. In Genesis 25 we see the birth of Jacob and Esau, and Esau selling his birthright to Jacob. After that we are told of the marriages of Jacob and the renewal of the covenant and the changing of Jacob's name to Israel and the birth of the 12 tribes of the nation of Israel.
We see the 70 that are in Egypt because of the famine, but in 430 years they had multiplied so much that Exodus 12:37 states " about 600 hundred thousand on foot that we men. This does not include women or children. It was to Moses and the children that God said in Exodus 19:5-6 that God said: " Now therefore it ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priest, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." This was spoken to Israel, not to the Church.
The Church was a mystery not known during all this and is not part of the kingdom. The Church is the bride of Christ and will rule and reign with Christ over the earthly kingdom of priest. The kingdom of priest will be established with the sealing of the 12,000 from each tribe of the 12 tribes during the tribulation and will establish the kingdom on earth.
In order to preserve Israel during the "times of the Gentiles" , there is a remnant still preserved according to Romans 11:5. Now back to the first paragraph: That through your mercy, mercy received, not mercy shown by, but the mercy of God given to the Gentiles, they the remnant have also received and are preserved.
The crux of understanding Romans 11 is verse 30-31 : " for as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so, have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."
In times ye in times past: gentiles. The earthly kingdom was promised to Abraham in that God promised to make him a nation: Genesis 12:2. In Genesis 15 we find that God also promised Abram that a heavenly people would also come through him. In Genesis 21:1-2 we know that Isaac was the son of promise (faith) being that Sarai and Abram were beyond the age for child bearing. In Genesis 25 we see the birth of Jacob and Esau, and Esau selling his birthright to Jacob. After that we are told of the marriages of Jacob and the renewal of the covenant and the changing of Jacob's name to Israel and the birth of the 12 tribes of the nation of Israel.
We see the 70 that are in Egypt because of the famine, but in 430 years they had multiplied so much that Exodus 12:37 states " about 600 hundred thousand on foot that we men. This does not include women or children. It was to Moses and the children that God said in Exodus 19:5-6 that God said: " Now therefore it ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priest, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." This was spoken to Israel, not to the Church.
The Church was a mystery not known during all this and is not part of the kingdom. The Church is the bride of Christ and will rule and reign with Christ over the earthly kingdom of priest. The kingdom of priest will be established with the sealing of the 12,000 from each tribe of the 12 tribes during the tribulation and will establish the kingdom on earth.
In order to preserve Israel during the "times of the Gentiles" , there is a remnant still preserved according to Romans 11:5. Now back to the first paragraph: That through your mercy, mercy received, not mercy shown by, but the mercy of God given to the Gentiles, they the remnant have also received and are preserved.
Mustard Socks
Member
Revelation 21:9-10
9. One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10. And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
9. One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10. And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
There are NO verses that teach that those who cease to believe cease to be saved. So there is no reason to believe that.
If there were, they'd have been provided. And 1 Cor 15:1-2 has already been explained and shown NOT to say what is being claimed about it.
Mustard Socks
Member
That's your opinion. That is not scripture. That is not the message of the cross.
I agree. And there is a possibility.......
She may be a ruler in heaven......possibly over her husband. She may have figured out her freedom in Christ. Fruit inspectors are looking for the outward change and not the inward change.
2 Cor 4:18~~New American Standard Bible
while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.