1689 London Confession

[Alfred Persson]

Oh, you're energetic .. .*giggle*
Hey, seriously, you don't have to exegete all m

Part 1
Alfred Persson said:

As for texts saying God blinded etc., list them all in a separate post. Don't leave any of them out. I will, when I have time, treat them all one by one.

>Oh, you're energetic .. .*giggle*
>Hey, seriously, you don't have to exegete all my verses...I don't think you know what you got yourself into *smile*
>A few of the verses say it's Satan doing the blinding. I say God caused Satan to do it; you say Satan does things independent of God.... you don't have to address those. The Confession calls them >Second Causes; you call them First Causes even though that contradicts the Law of Causality

>

>

The "Law of Causality" is circular, premise and conclusion are the same. The acts of free will creatures aren't caused by creation or God, they initiate it.

>

>
>Again, I think it an unfair burden on you to exegete all these verses. I assume you will use the same logic for each one anyways.
>Good luck. ..... ah, I mean may God's be the First Cause of your answer
>Aside: Darn list too long ... I have to delete some due to Forum size restrictions
>

I prefer to get these out of the way rather than endlessly have to treat them over and over again.





>God Hardens and Blinds Verses ( subset of many verses saying God control peoples (is the First Cause)
>
>

>Exodus 4:21 I will harden his heart that he shall not let the people go … If it be asked, Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart? the answer furnished by Scripture itself is, In order that God might >show forth His power in him (Romans 9:17) Why did God select such a method of displaying His power? then the answer must be that being Sovereign God reserves to Himself the right to act as >He pleases. Not only are we told that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh so that he would not let the Israelites go, but after God had plagued his land so severely that he reluctantly gave a >qualified permission, and after that the first-born of all the Egyptians had been slain, and Israel had actually left the land of bondage, God told Moses, "And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the >Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get Me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, >when I have gotten Me honor upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen" (Exodus 14:17-18)

>Exodus 10:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants [making them determined and unresponsive], so that I may exhibit My >signs [of divine power] among them



Circular. You assumed "harden" means God directly hardens the heart, and then point to these texts to prove God directly hardens the heart.



These Scriptures do not show God's hardening hearts directly. He does it indirectly, allowing Satan do miracles through Pharaoh's magicians so Pharaoh would harden his own heart:



11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.

12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said.

14 So the LORD said to Moses: "Pharaoh's heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go. (Exod. 7:11-14 NKJ)



God didn't say, "look how my power made Pharaoh's heart hard, he has no choice, he must refuse to let the people go."



But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said. (Exod. 8:15 NKJ)

The text does not say "when Pharaoh's heart was miraculously made hard by God's power, he couldn't heed them"



>Exodus 34:23 Three times a year all your males shall appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel. 24 For I will drive out and dispossess nations before you and enlarge your borders; nor shall any >man covet (actively seek for himself) your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times a year.


Your Confirmation bias is so strong, you see what isn't there. Boldface the words where God is causing people's choices. Driving out the enemy isn't mind control, its war.



>Numbers 24:13 I could not do anything contrary to the command of the Lord either good or bad of my own heart. What the Lord speaks that I will speak

Confirmation bias! Balaam says he can only prophesy what God said, and you see God controlling his mind!

>

>Joshua 11:20 For it was the Lord’s intention to harden their hearts, so that they would engage Israel in battle, be completely destroyed without mercy, and be annihilated, just as the Lord >had commanded Moses.


Circular, you assume "harden their hearts" means Mind control, and then believe the words "harden their hearts" is mind control.



When I read it "harden their hearts" means God didn't do anything to warn them. He didn't send them any prophets, or angels of God. Nor did the Holy Spirit try to sway them. They were left to their own devices and chose to do what they wanted to, fight Israel.

Until Scripture defines the "hardening process" as you define it, where God actively acts on the heart so free will choice ceases to exist, your proofs are "circular, proving nothing."

 

[Alfred Persson]

Oh, you're energetic .. .*giggle*

Part II

>Samuel 2:25 If a man sins against another man, God can intercede for him, but if a man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?” But they would not listen to their father, since the Lord >intended to kill them.

Confirmation Bias. The text says nothing about God causing men to act in a particular way. Its AMAZING you think this text is relevant.

>1 Kings 22:23 “You see, the Lord has put a lying spirit into the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has pronounced disaster against you.”

Causing prophets to lie doesn't cause the audience to believe them.



>Deuteronomy 2:30 "But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand"


This is a Hebraic parallelism, "hardened his spirit" is defined as "Made his heart obstinate", is another way of saying it:

Obstinate: Firmly or stubbornly adhering to one's purpose, opinion, etc.; not yielding to argument, persuasion, or entreaty.

Adhering to "one's purpose, opinion", not "being forced to obey the purpose of another, believe another's opinion". So "hardening his spirit" is "orchestrating events so obstinate opinions don't change." The will of the king wasn't changed by God.



>Deuteronomy 28:63 Just as the Lord was glad to cause you to prosper and to multiply you, so He will also be glad to cause you to perish and to destroy you. You will be deported from the land you >are entering to possess

Confirmation Bias. You see mind control where there is none.

>Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his servants, and to all his land; >3 the great trials [of Pharaoh] which your eyes have seen, the signs and those great wonders. 4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart and mind to understand, nor eyes to >see, nor ears to hear.

Your argument violates the law of distribution. What is said to these Israelites doesn't universally apply to all as Christ Himself makes clear:

For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Matt. 13:15 NKJ)



The hearts of these people had grown dull because they closed their own eyes. Which means they had free will to do so. It wasn't God's doing, no "closing eyes energy" went from God to these people.



>Joshua 11:18 Joshua had waged war a long time [at least five years] with all those kings. 19 Not a city made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites, the people of Gibeon; all the others >they took in battle. 20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, that [Israel] might destroy them utterly, and that without favor and >mercy, as the Lord commanded Moses.

You already used this context above.

>Psalm 105:25 He [God] turned their [the Egyptians] heart to hate His people [Israel], to deal subtly with His servants

This does nothing for your argument. This clearly is a special case, God doesn't do this to everyone born into the world. So it proves nothing for your argument about everyone living.,

Just as God sent lying spirits to Zedekiah and his fellow prophets to persuade the king, so God likely did to the Egyptians. There is no mind control, only the power of telepathic suggestion. It remained their choice to hate.

>Psalm 141:4 Do not incline my heart to [consent to or tolerate] any evil thing, Or to practice deeds of wickedness

Only a powerful Confirmation Bias can see "control" in the word "incline." Incline means "disposed", not "controlled".

>Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has prepared everything for His purpose—even the wicked for the day of disaster.

Doesn't prove mind control. Implied is God's plan vessels of wrath make His power and glory known. He created knowing the fall would happen, and wicked come into existence. In various ways they serve God's purpose, giving Him occasion to make His Holy Wrath against the wicked known to all in creation. The "day of disaster" is likely "Judgment Day."



>Proverbs 20:1 The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it whichever way He wishes.

Law of Distribution. What applies to the king isn't universally true of everyone who exists, which is what you need to prove your point.

>Isaiah 63:17 O Lord, why have You made us [able] to err from Your ways and hardened our hearts to [reverential] fear of You? Return [to bless us] for Your servants’ sake, the tribes of Your >heritage. [one of many examples of God’s sovereign will controlling the hearts of men]

Law of Distribution. What is true during God's judging Israel isn't a universal principle:

26 "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,`For we are also His offspring.' (Acts 17:26-28 NKJ)



>Matthew 11:23 ... that You have hidden these things from the wise and clever and learned, and revealed them to babies [to the childish, untaught, and unskilled].

Christians believe the Holy Spirit enlightens us, illuminates dark saying and enigma. Its not mind control.

>Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth [I openly and joyfully acknowledge Your great wisdom], that You have hidden these things [these spiritual >truths] from the wise and intelligent and revealed them to infants [to new believers, to those seeking God’s will and purpose].

Christians believe the Holy Spirit enlightens us, illuminates dark saying and enigma. Its not mind control.

>Matthew 11:27 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the >Son wills to reveal Him.”

Christians believe the Holy Spirit enlightens us, illuminates dark saying and enigma. Its not mind control.



>John 12:40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their heart and being converted; otherwise, I [their God] >would heal them.”

Scripture interprets scripture. John's perspective is on the outside, what it looks like to him. Christ gave us the "inside perspective", who really does the hardening:

For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Matt. 13:15 NKJ)

>John 12:37 Even though He had done so many signs (attesting miracles) right before them, yet they still did not believe and failed to trust Him— 38 This was to fulfill what Isaiah the prophet said: >“Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm (the power) of the Lord been shown (unveiled, revealed)?” 39 Therefore they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “He >has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their heart and being converted; otherwise, I [their God] would >heal them.”

• Scripture interprets scripture. John's perspective is on the outside, what it looks like to him. Christ gave us the "inside perspective", who really does the hardening:
• 
  
• For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Matt. 13:15 NKJ)

>Acts 16:6,7 “Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, after they were come to Mysia, they assayed >to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.”

If the Holy Spirit or the Police forbid you drive down a particular road, its not mind control.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Oh, you're energetic .. .*giggle*

Part III
>Romans 9:18 So then, He has mercy on whom He wills (chooses), and He hardens [the heart of] whom He wills.

Context reveals God is talking about sinners like Pharaoh. He can make one a toilet, the other a golden crown. He didn't make them sinners, they all are from the same sinful clay:

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Rom. 9:17-22 NKJ)





>Romans 11:32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.

Law of Distribution. What applies to "all Israel" God's elect, whose gifts and calling are irrevocable, doesn't apply to everyone:



28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,

31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"

35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:28-36 NKJ)



>2 Corinthians 3:14 But [in fact] their [Israel] minds were hardened [for they had lost the ability to understand]; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains >unlifted, because it is removed [only] in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil [of blindness] lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns [in repentance and faith] to >the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Christians believe God the Holy Spirit illuminates Scripture. Not that the data can't be properly interpreted without His illumination for scripture is sufficient. But Confirmation Bias prevents the truth plainly in the text from being seen.

That is NOT God preventing them, its their own confirmation bias which is a real "blindness" to facts. God is leaving alone for now for His own purposes, as Romans 11:25-36 reveals.

>2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them [unbelievers during the time of the anti-Christ] strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned >who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Gordon Clark writes, "The Arminians usually hold that God does not cause people to despise the truth nor does he purpose to >condemn them for doing so. But this verse says, note carefully, that God plunges them into error in order that they shall be condemned.

Context disproves your eisegesis. The context expressly says God sends the strong delusion because "they did not receive love of the truth". They rejected God's calling them to repentance.



God is credited with sending the delusion because He stops restraining Satanic energy to deceive. Just as in the Days of Noah, Satan and Nephilim fallen angels will physically walk the earth, claiming to be extraterrestrials. The delusion Satan and his Antichrist are mankind's benefactors is a strong delusion indeed:



7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2:7-12 NKJ)



Satan is the one controlling minds, by deceiving them. Not God.



>Revelation 17:17 For God has put it in their hearts to carry out His purpose by agreeing together to surrender their kingdom to the beast, until the [prophetic] words of God will be fulfilled.

It begs the question if "put it in their hearts" is a form of mind control. Advertising puts things in our hearts so we buy their products all the time, that is not mind control

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[GodsGrace]

First, that is probably the “normal” definition of Free Will (what most people mean when they use the term). Of course, it only matters in the area of salvation. Few Calvinists argue that you have no power to choose the color of your tie (some do, but they are the minority). Typically they argue that fallen man cannot choose God (so people are not free to believe). [John 6:44 ish].

That said, I am always amused by ‘proof texts’ like Deuteronomy 30:19 when nobody ever bothers to mention that the nation ultimately chose ’death’ and was dragged off to Babylon (as those advocating ‘free will’ hold them up as proof that we can ‘choose life’). I just love the irony of it.

It's still a choice.
God did not decree their choice.

Free will in theology is the ability to make a moral choice based on more than one option without outside coercion.

The other member described philosophical free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

>Samuel 2:25 If a man sins against another man, God can intercede for him, but if a man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?” But they would not listen to their father, since the Lord >intended to kill them.

Confirmation Bias. The text says nothing about God causing men to act in a particular way. Its AMAZING you think this text is relevant.

>1 Kings 22:23 “You see, the Lord has put a lying spirit into the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has pronounced disaster against you.”

Causing prophets to lie doesn't cause the audience to believe them.



>Deuteronomy 2:30 "But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand"


This is a Hebraic parallelism, "hardened his spirit" is defined as "Made his heart obstinate", is another way of saying it:

Obstinate: Firmly or stubbornly adhering to one's purpose, opinion, etc.; not yielding to argument, persuasion, or entreaty.

Adhering to "one's purpose, opinion", not "being forced to obey the purpose of another, believe another's opinion". So "hardening his spirit" is "orchestrating events so obstinate opinions don't change." The will of the king wasn't changed by God.



>Deuteronomy 28:63 Just as the Lord was glad to cause you to prosper and to multiply you, so He will also be glad to cause you to perish and to destroy you. You will be deported from the land you >are entering to possess

Confirmation Bias. You see mind control where there is none.

>Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his servants, and to all his land; >3 the great trials [of Pharaoh] which your eyes have seen, the signs and those great wonders. 4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart and mind to understand, nor eyes to >see, nor ears to hear.

Your argument violates the law of distribution. What is said to these Israelites doesn't universally apply to all as Christ Himself makes clear:

For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Matt. 13:15 NKJ)



The hearts of these people had grown dull because they closed their own eyes. Which means they had free will to do so. It wasn't God's doing, no "closing eyes energy" went from God to these people.



>Joshua 11:18 Joshua had waged war a long time [at least five years] with all those kings. 19 Not a city made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites, the people of Gibeon; all the others >they took in battle. 20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, that [Israel] might destroy them utterly, and that without favor and >mercy, as the Lord commanded Moses.

You already used this context above.

>Psalm 105:25 He [God] turned their [the Egyptians] heart to hate His people [Israel], to deal subtly with His servants

This does nothing for your argument. This clearly is a special case, God doesn't do this to everyone born into the world. So it proves nothing for your argument about everyone living.,

Just as God sent lying spirits to Zedekiah and his fellow prophets to persuade the king, so God likely did to the Egyptians. There is no mind control, only the power of telepathic suggestion. It remained their choice to hate.

>Psalm 141:4 Do not incline my heart to [consent to or tolerate] any evil thing, Or to practice deeds of wickedness

Only a powerful Confirmation Bias can see "control" in the word "incline." Incline means "disposed", not "controlled".

>Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has prepared everything for His purpose—even the wicked for the day of disaster.

Doesn't prove mind control. Implied is God's plan vessels of wrath make His power and glory known. He created knowing the fall would happen, and wicked come into existence. In various ways they serve God's purpose, giving Him occasion to make His Holy Wrath against the wicked known to all in creation. The "day of disaster" is likely "Judgment Day."



>Proverbs 20:1 The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it whichever way He wishes.

Law of Distribution. What applies to the king isn't universally true of everyone who exists, which is what you need to prove your point.

>Isaiah 63:17 O Lord, why have You made us [able] to err from Your ways and hardened our hearts to [reverential] fear of You? Return [to bless us] for Your servants’ sake, the tribes of Your >heritage. [one of many examples of God’s sovereign will controlling the hearts of men]

Law of Distribution. What is true during God's judging Israel isn't a universal principle:

26 "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,`For we are also His offspring.' (Acts 17:26-28 NKJ)



>Matthew 11:23 ... that You have hidden these things from the wise and clever and learned, and revealed them to babies [to the childish, untaught, and unskilled].

Christians believe the Holy Spirit enlightens us, illuminates dark saying and enigma. Its not mind control.

>Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth [I openly and joyfully acknowledge Your great wisdom], that You have hidden these things [these spiritual >truths] from the wise and intelligent and revealed them to infants [to new believers, to those seeking God’s will and purpose].

Christians believe the Holy Spirit enlightens us, illuminates dark saying and enigma. Its not mind control.

>Matthew 11:27 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the >Son wills to reveal Him.”

Christians believe the Holy Spirit enlightens us, illuminates dark saying and enigma. Its not mind control.



>John 12:40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their heart and being converted; otherwise, I [their God] >would heal them.”

Scripture interprets scripture. John's perspective is on the outside, what it looks like to him. Christ gave us the "inside perspective", who really does the hardening:

For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Matt. 13:15 NKJ)

>John 12:37 Even though He had done so many signs (attesting miracles) right before them, yet they still did not believe and failed to trust Him— 38 This was to fulfill what Isaiah the prophet said: >“Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm (the power) of the Lord been shown (unveiled, revealed)?” 39 Therefore they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “He >has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, to keep them from seeing with their eyes and understanding with their heart and being converted; otherwise, I [their God] would >heal them.”

• Scripture interprets scripture. John's perspective is on the outside, what it looks like to him. Christ gave us the "inside perspective", who really does the hardening:
• 
  
• For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Matt. 13:15 NKJ)

>Acts 16:6,7 “Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, after they were come to Mysia, they assayed >to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.”

If the Holy Spirit or the Police forbid you drive down a particular road, its not mind control.

Intetesting how God decrees persons to do what He commands them not to do.

Wish your posts were shorter.
But your choice of course.

 

[Alfred Persson]

First, that is probably the “normal” definition of Free Will (what most people mean when they use the term). Of course, it only matters in the area of salvation. Few Calvinists argue that you have no power to choose the color of your tie (some do, but they are the minority). Typically they argue that fallen man cannot choose God (so people are not free to believe). [John 6:44 ish].

That said, I am always amused by ‘proof texts’ like Deuteronomy 30:19 when nobody ever bothers to mention that the nation ultimately chose ’death’ and was dragged off to Babylon (as those advocating ‘free will’ hold them up as proof that we can ‘choose life’). I just love the irony of it.

It does not logically follow people making the wrong choice proves they don't have one.

God offers the choice, He would not if it didn't exist. He is not a deceiver.

Same here:

6 So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." (Gen. 4:6-7 NKJ)

Cain could have fought off the sinful, God says he could.

I have found the best way to fight evil desire, to rule over it...is to concentrate on a good desire that defeats it. For example, I once smoked four packs of cigarettes a day and my will power to quit smoking failed every time. I gave up trying to quit. One morning I had a "vivid dream" of myself in bed breathing with the aid of oxygen tanks. Outside it was a beautiful day but I had to stay inside, and breathe through a tube.

Afterward, every time the desire to smoke rose up, the desire to breathe without tubes and tank defeated it, quite easily. It been about 15 years, the urge for a cigarette still appears. Immediately the desire to breathe without an apparatus defeats it.

 

[atpollard]

These Scriptures do not show God's hardening hearts directly. He does it indirectly, allowing Satan do miracles through Pharaoh's magicians so Pharaoh would harden his own heart:

Was there a possibility that Pharaoh would not harden his heart, that there would be no lamb slaughtered, no Passover no symbolism of Christ as our redeemer to illuminate the coming messiah?

• IOW: Was this "freedom" real or only hypothetical?
• If "real", does that not mean that God's plan could have been thwarted by Pharoah's will?
• If God's plan was impossible to thwart, then did Pharaoh really have a "free choice"?

This is the dilemma of "Free Will" ... a power beyond God's control.

 

[atpollard]

It's still a choice.
God did not decree their choice.

I agree. They chose badly without any "HELP" from God.

I describe "Total Depravity" as the UNWILLINGNESS of fallen man (everyone that is unsaved) to choose God, so men exercise their Free and Fallen Will to choose to reject God with 100% constancy. If God did NOTHING about it, EVERYONE would fall into the "already condemned" camp BY THEIR OWN FREE CHOICE.

It is by GRACE that God intervenes and "Irresistibly Draws" those whom God "Unconditionally Chose" and whpl God "Preserves as Saints" until He glorifies them. So our FREE WILL Guarantees our damnation and God's Sovereign Election overrides our decision and claims us for His Salvation.

We do not decree God's choice ... that is what Monergism and the Reformation is all about.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Was there a possibility that Pharaoh would not harden his heart, that there would be no lamb slaughtered, no Passover no symbolism of Christ as our redeemer to illuminate the coming messiah?

• IOW: Was this "freedom" real or only hypothetical?
• If "real", does that not mean that God's plan could have been thwarted by Pharoah's will?
• If God's plan was impossible to thwart, then did Pharaoh really have a "free choice"?

This is the dilemma of "Free Will" ... a power beyond God's control.

God is infinite, in Him all past present future time space consists (1 Cor. 1:17). The opportunity is real, but God knows what will happen without causing it. He knows all things; and everything is already past to God:

To God, we already sit with Him in heavenly place. To finite creatures living in time and space, He will show us the exceeding riches of His grace:

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph. 2:4-7 NKJ)

 

[atpollard]

Same here:

6 So the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." (Gen. 4:6-7 NKJ)

Cain could have fought off the sinful, God says he could.

The word in scripture is "should", and the word you used is "could". Those words do not mean the same thing.

I agree that Cain SHOULD have ruled over sin (as we all SHOULD).
I disagree that Cain COULD have ruled over sin (as we are all "slaves to sin" ... thus the need for a Savior.)

Total Depravity ... man is incapable of obedience. That is why until Jesus shows up, we have so many commands to "obey" and nobody able to follow them.

 

[atpollard]

The opportunity is real, but God knows what will happen without causing it.

This makes the opportunity merely "hypothetical", does it not. There was only ever one possible outcome ... the one God knew and was according to God's desired plan ... Pharaoh's heart WOULD be hardened. There was no REAL possibility for Pharaoh to not harden his heart, was there?

Does this apply to our FREE WILL to be saved as well? God knows that outcome and has a plan just as much as He did with Pharaoh.

 

[GodsGrace]

Was there a possibility that Pharaoh would not harden his heart, that there would be no lamb slaughtered, no Passover no symbolism of Christ as our redeemer to illuminate the coming messiah?

• IOW: Was this "freedom" real or only hypothetical?
• If "real", does that not mean that God's plan could have been thwarted by Pharoah's will?
• If God's plan was impossible to thwart, then did Pharaoh really have a "free choice"?

This is the dilemma of "Free Will" ... a power beyond God's control.

There is no power beyond God's control.
God is sovereign. He can work around our free will. Roman's 8:28 states this plainly.
Jacob's brothers meant it for evil...
But God used it for good.

However, any Christian would have to admit that God has intervened in human history, but He certainly does not make a habit of this.

Example: Nazism.
This would be a real problem for theodocy if God had not intervened.

But some calvinists believe God caused this too.
For them the problem of evil has been solved by making God be the author of evil.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Not dualism. Satan is controlled, but his actions are his own.

Perhaps our definitions of dualism differ. I'll avoid the term.
I agree: 1) Satan is controlled and 2) his actions are his own (he is held responsible)
This is my thesis: God controls all things so your statement agrees with my thesis.

And its elementary what Free Will is:

Freedom to choose for ourselves, no outside control.

Ah, finally a FULL definition.
This sounds like Libertarian Free Will which is "the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition".
Aside: my guess is that you will change you definition as we go along, but let's go with what you have said: "Freedom to choose for ourselves, no outside control". So not controlled or influenced or forced ...no one else with power to sway your decisions.

God asked us to choose, therefore we have the ability and opportunity to choose, i.e., free will:

.... and your definition says one ability to choose is not swayed by outside forces/control if I understand you correctly ... let's go with that.

If God made our choices it would be deception He ask us to choose.

Neither of us is saying God makes our choices. We differ in that I say God causes you to choose A or B and you say our choice is not influenced by outside forces (i.e. God, parents, the weather ...)

So, let's test out your theory of how "free will" work.
First we need a choice that is supposed "free" from outside control/influence. Let's go with:

Scenario 1:

1 Corinthians 15:34 “Awake to righteousness and sin not”.

The choice is there. You can continue the rest of your life and never sin or you can decide to sin.
What have you freely chosen to do and why?

Scenario 2:
Premise 1: People are without excuse (Romans 1)
Premise 2: One must have faith in Christ to be saved (John 3:18) (we'll keep it simple and restrict this to last 2000 yrs)
Premise 3: Billions of people have died in last 2000 years who never heard of Christ
Question ... assuming you agree the premises are correct .... did these people have a choice which could save them from damnation???


Aside: You're a prolific writer.... you may win by attrition. :yes

 

[atpollard]

There is no power beyond God's control.
God is sovereign. He can work around our free will. Roman's 8:28 states this plainly.

So which is Pharaoh's heart an example of?
Did Pharaoh have GENUINE Free Will to not harden his heart (and thwart Passover) or was the Heart of Pharaoh under God's "sovereign control"?

 

[Alfred Persson]

The word in scripture is "should", and the word you used is "could". Those words do not mean the same thing.

I agree that Cain SHOULD have ruled over sin (as we all SHOULD).
I disagree that Cain COULD have ruled over sin (as we are all "slaves to sin" ... thus the need for a Savior.)

Total Depravity ... man is incapable of obedience. That is why until Jesus shows up, we have so many commands to "obey" and nobody able to follow them.

I agree, "should" is in the translation, "could" conveys a different sense. I repent. In other translations "should rule" (04910 מָשַׁל mashal) is "must rule" (CSB) "must master" (NAU) "you can be its master" (TNK). The last is how I understand it, but the first two are perhaps more "literal".

God is insisting Cain overcome the evil desires, which clearly implies it was possible for him to do so.

In a Jewish Targum, which reflects how this verse was understood, we read:

If thou makest thy work good in this world, will it not be forgiven and remitted thee in the world to come? But if thou doest not make thy work good in this world, thy sin is retained unto the day of the great judgment; and at the door of thy heart it lieth. Yet into thy hand have I delivered power over evil passion, and to thee may be dominion over it, to become righteous or to sin. (Gen. 4:7 JTE)


In the main I agree with "Total Depravity", but not if understood making free will impossible. We can choose, its another issue if we can maintain fidelity to that choice. Spirit is willing, flesh is weak.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The "Law of Causality" is circular,

????? That's ridiculous. There's a reason man puts the word LAW into the statement. Like the Law of Gravity it's never broken. Your result of your statement is: Something caused God to exist ... .this would be a necessary occurrence for the Law of Causality to be circular. .... sigh .. not much sense continuing if the discussion is irrational.
If irrationality rules ... then I say all my statements are infallibly true because Hitler had 2 feet.

Aside: It's difficult to follow you responses. It would be much easier to highlight text I wrote and then click on REPLY so I know what I wrote and you wrote

Until Scripture defines the "hardening process" as you define it, where God actively acts on the heart so free will choice ceases to exist, your proofs are "circular, proving nothing."

Is this verse circular too? ... In the beginning God (Elohim) created [by forming from nothing] the heavens and the earth.

atpollard - help me here
Do you think the Law of Causality is "circular"?

atpollard ... do you know what Alfred is talking about? How is Exodus 10:1 circular logic? Maybe it's me. One or both of us is confused.

>Exodus 10:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants [making them determined and unresponsive], so that I may exhibit My >signs [of divine power] among them

Circular. You assumed "harden" means God directly hardens the heart, and then point to these texts to prove God directly hardens the heart.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Part III
>Romans 9:18 So then, He has mercy on whom He wills (chooses), and He hardens [the heart of] whom He wills.

Context reveals God is talking about sinners like Pharaoh. He can make one a toilet, the other a golden crown. He didn't make them sinners, they all are from the same sinful clay:

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

I have to give you a "high five" to sticking to it. If effort wins the day, I concede. Wow.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This makes the opportunity merely "hypothetical", does it not. There was only ever one possible outcome ... the one God knew and was according to God's desired plan ... Pharaoh's heart WOULD be hardened. There was no REAL possibility for Pharaoh to not harden his heart, was there?

Does this apply to our FREE WILL to be saved as well? God knows that outcome and has a plan just as much as He did with Pharaoh.

No, not hypothetical. Its real. God knowing what will happen didn't diminish the opportunity for Cain or Pharaoh.

God predestined His children unto salvation. While in real time they are saved 'through faith', God would not permit the Devil take any of this children with him. Death will not have the victory:


55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 15:55-57 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

????? That's ridiculous. There's a reason man puts the word LAW into the statement. Like the Law of Gravity it's never broken. Your result of your statement is: Something caused God to exist ... .this would be a necessary occurrence for the Law of Causality to be circular. .... sigh .. not much sense continuing if the discussion is irrational.

I misspoke. The Law isn't circular, its your understanding of it that is. You suppose God causes our choices, and declare God is first cause of everything. But that assumes what you are proving is true. If man has free will, and he chooses to act according to that choice, God is not the first cause of his act. Not directly. Only by regression back to Creation and in a court of law, no one does that.

Or we wouldn't convict anyone, only God.

 

[atpollard]

No, not hypothetical. Its real. God knowing what will happen didn't diminish the opportunity for Cain or Pharaoh.

You are missing the point.
NOBODY argues that God did not know what WOULD happen ... it is not God's knowledge of the future that is in question.

The question is God's ability to COMPEL His plan and the ABILITY of Pharaoh to have a FREE WILL to act contrary to what God desires. COULD Pharaoh have softened his heart and ended God's plan for a Passover? Did Pharaoh have THAT FREE WILL? Did Pharaoh have that ABILITY?

Scripture says that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart" and you say "No, God only allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart." Scripture claims that GOD'S PLAN MUST HAPPEN and Pharaoh had no freedom to do otherwise. You claim that Pharaoh had the power within his FREE WILL to change God's Plan.

That is the point!

[The WILL is either FREE or it is NOT.]