1689 London Confession

[GodsGrace]

My guess is you got it wrong again.. it is irrelevant for my purposes

Yeah yeah.
I get everything wrong.

Go talk to Atpollard....
you like him.

Problem is: You two have different beliefs.
Guess he's more convincing than I am...
even when it's in black on white
or playing on youtube.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So Genesis 8:22 was a VERY interesting choice of verses to discuss "Second Causes" (in my opinion).

When you find something where God is Second Cause or man is First Cause, let me know. ?

Speaking of which ... Alfred Persson did bring to light a verse that seems to fit the
bill that God is not the First Cause in that instance ...
Isaiah 54:15 “If anyone fiercely attacks you it will not be from Me. Whoever attacks you will fall because of you.

Aside: Have you ever noticed, and this is a general statement ... have you ever noticed that no matter who clear and interpretation might be there is someone with, I'll called it "good credentials" that can find a reason to make the verse fit their doctrine .... like John 3:16 ..... Whoever believes ... .and they take it and assume the cause of belief is whoever when the cause of their belief is not stated .... Heck, the R.C.s magisterium takes authority over scripture ... that would be the ultimate example of what I am saying

.... anyways, Isaiah 54:15 ....does seem to contradict my thesis (not that there are plenty of verses to back me up

 

[Fastfredy0]

You mean God doesn't know what's going to happen?

???? no

 

[atpollard]

But I do wonder about this:
Why did Jesus have to be sacrificed under Calvinism?
Never been answered.

Sorry, but Calvinism changes NOTHING about Christology and theories of Atonement (except to lean away from Christ died for all and Men choose God ... the core of SYNERGISM and opposite of Calvinistic MONERGISM).

I am personally a "Christus Victor" fan, so Jesus died to defeat DEATH and SIN and the HELL. Most are "Penal Substitution" fans, so Christ died to pay our sin debt.

IF God decreed/predestinated even sinful acts,
then why was an atonement needed?

Why would God decree sinful acts and then have to pay Himself for them?
It makes no sense (as usual).

The Confession will unquestionably get into that if it has not yet, but ultimately an atonement is needed in Calvinism for the same reason that an atonement is needed in Free Will: People are Guilty of Sin (God, the ONLY JUDGE, says so).

• John 3:14-21 [NLT]
• And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.
  
  “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
  
  “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”

No Death, no Savior. No Savior, no Salvation ... all stand "already judged" and "in darkness".

Your complaint with "predestination" amounts to ... ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.' [Ezekiel 18, Ezekiel 33]
(It is an old complaint made by men against God.)

 

[atpollard]

When you find something where God is Second Cause or man is First Cause, let me know. ?

If I find that in the 1689 Baptist Confession ... I will be VERY SURPRISED!

 

[Fastfredy0]

Fastfredy0 has been insisting that some things happen through a second cause, thus excusing God for evil acts.

Mischaracterization .... way off

Been telling him that I understand calvinism better than he does, but it seems he doesn't like me as much as he likes you. (he listens to you).

If you do, you aren't able to communicate what you know very well. For example: You say Reform theology says God is Unjust. This is obviously false. I assume you mean to say that under your understanding of justice God as Reform theology teaches would be unjust. Of course, this is my assumption as one cannot know for certain what another means when they miscommunicate .... or possibly other motives.

I listen to atpollard because he is intelligent, informed, interesting and communicates clearly ... and there's the biblical truth that "two cannot walk together unless they are agreed" ... we usually agree.
Also, I'm being nice because I was thinking of asking him for a loan.

IF God decreed/predestinated even sinful acts,
then why was an atonement needed?

Sounds familiar .... your premises were faulty so I didn't bother go through it trying to explain. atpollard has more patience ... lol .. and I handed the football to him a couple posts ago.

 

[GodsGrace]

Mischaracterization .... way off



If you do, you aren't able to communicate what you know very well. For example: You say Reform theology says God is Unjust. This is obviously false. I assume you mean to say that under your understanding of justice God as Reform theology teaches would be unjust. Of course, this is my assumption as one cannot know for certain what another means when they miscommunicate .... or possibly other motives.

I listen to atpollard because he is intelligent, informed, interesting and communicates clearly ... and there's the biblical truth that "two cannot walk together unless they are agreed" ... we usually agree.
Also, I'm being nice because I was thinking of asking him for a loan.



Sounds familiar .... your premises were faulty so I didn't bother go through it trying to explain. atpollard has more patience ... lol .. and I handed the football to him a couple posts ago.

Oh.
He gives loans huh?
I'll remember that next time I need some moolah.


I NEVER said calvinism teaches that God is unjust.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Yeah yeah.
I get everything wrong.

Darn, you broke your streak with that statement.

 

[atpollard]

God is not the First Cause in that instance ...
Isaiah 54:15 “If anyone fiercely attacks you it will not be from Me. Whoever attacks you will fall because of you.

Context, context, context ...

Isaiah 54 [NKJV]:
11 “O you afflicted one,
Tossed with tempest, and not comforted,
Behold, I will lay your stones with colorful gems,
And lay your foundations with sapphires.
12 I will make your pinnacles of rubies,
Your gates of crystal,
And all your walls of precious stones.
13 All your children shall be taught by the LORD,
And great shall be the peace of your children.
14 In righteousness you shall be established;
You shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear;
And from terror, for it shall not come near you.
15 Indeed they shall surely assemble, but not because of Me.
Whoever assembles against you shall fall for your sake.


Isaiah 54 [NLT]:
11 “O storm-battered city,
troubled and desolate!
I will rebuild you with precious jewels
and make your foundations from lapis lazuli.
12 I will make your towers of sparkling rubies,
your gates of shining gems,
and your walls of precious stones.
13 I will teach all your children,
and they will enjoy great peace.
14 You will be secure under a government that is just and fair.
Your enemies will stay far away.
You will live in peace,
and terror will not come near.
15 If any nation comes to fight you,
it is not because I sent them.
Whoever attacks you will go down in defeat.

Umm ... isn't this what happens in the end of Revelation. God destroys the nations that rise up against His beautiful jeweled city? Doesn't this contrast with what God did when He sent Babylon to destroy Jerusalem as punishment?

I am SO NOT INTO ESCHATOLOGY, but the city described in the verses leading up to 15 does not sound like the Jerusalem that Jesus overturned tables and verbally took the leaders to the woodshed and sent Rome to destroy in 70 AD.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I NEVER said calvinism teaches that God is unjust.

I wish we had a method to make a bet .... then I wold bother to go out and find this is not factual. Like, you've done it several times. But, whatever ...

 

[Fastfredy0]

I am SO NOT INTO ESCHATOLOGY

ME TOO ... vast confusion of theories ... I like Pre-mill 'cause it makes for cool narrative. Gee, Sproul end up amillennial in the end ... I think Reform are amill ...not sure ... don't care much ... lol

• NET© If anyone dares to challenge you, it will not be my doing! Whoever tries to challenge you will be defeated.
• NIV© If anyone does attack you, it will not be my doing; whoever attacks you will surrender to you.
• NASB© "If anyone fiercely assails you it will not be from Me. Whoever assails you will fall because of you.
• ESV© If anyone stirs up strife,it is not from me;whoever stirs up strife with youshall fall because of you.
• NLT© If any nation comes to fight you, it is not because I sent them. Whoever attacks you will go down in defeat.
• MSG© If anyone attacks you, don’t for a moment suppose that I sent them, And if any should attack, nothing will come of it.
• BBE© See, they may be moved to war, but not by my authority: all those who come together to make an attack on you, will be broken against you.
• NKJV© Indeed they shall surely assemble, but not because of Me. Whoever assembles against you shall fall for your sake.
• NRSV© If anyone stirs up strife, it is not from me; whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you.

hmmm.... well, can't say the troublesome verse is a bad translation ... they all agree except the MSG which is a poor version

Maybe, when God said IT IS NOT MY DOING .... maybe He's referring to Him not doing it directly and putting blame on some Second Cause (the verse doesn't fit my doctrine and I can't as yet give a solid explanation ... the verse also contradicts other verses) ... oh, well, can't win them all

 

[Alfred Persson]

I'm

>Alfred Persson said: I see a way to reconcile God knowing all, without Him causing all.

> I'm intrigued, what's your logic for God knowing all before anything existed? Where, from who, how did God eternally know all things?

God is infinite, all knowing. I'm Orthodox. Not a Deist part deist, cultist etc.

If you smear me with such labels or get stupid asking "from who did God learn", our conversation is over.

>
>Alfred Persson said: God decided to create beings with free will,

I believe this statement to be a false premise. I ask you to define Free Will. Also, what scripture do you have to prove your point?

Freedom to choose is free will.

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; (Deut. 30:19 NKJ)

>

>Alfred Persson said: 1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. (Jn. 9:1-3 NKJ)
>
God did not cause the man being born blind because of anyone's sin. There is NOTHING in the story that says God did or didn't cause the man's blindness. Where do you see that?
>
Incorrect, the "work of God" revealed in Him was his healing, NOT his blindness.

1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.
4 "I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work.
5 "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
6 When He had said these things, He spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva; and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay.
7 And He said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam " (which is translated, Sent). So he went and washed, and came back seeing. (Jn. 9:1-7 NKJ)
>

>Alfred Persson said: God's creation follows natural laws, He doesn't cause tornados or earthquakes unless He has specific reasons for doing so. Most of the time, s...t happens and its not His doing.

Ah, the belief in deism (A religious belief holding that God created the universe and established rationally comprehensible moral and natural laws but does not intervene in human affairs through miracles or supernatural revelation. Deism pictures God as uncaring and uninvolved.). Technically, >since you believe God intervenes at times in His creation I suppose you are a partial deist. Partial deism, an interesting position to take .. . You can't have science without repeatable observations.

If you persist in mislabeling me or my theology, our conversation is over. I am not a Deist, partial deist or whatever.

God is Sovereign, He intervenes anytime He wants. Causes anything He wants.

God does NOT cause the bugs to fly into your windshield.

God does not cause you to pee.

Don't be absurd.

>But is it God that causes this repeatability? If this repeatability is caused or not cause by God is hard to prove. There's lot's of anedotal verses implying God controls everything. Isaiah 46:10-11 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do'" James 4:13 Come now [and pay attention to this], you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and carry on our business and make a profit.” 14 [a]Yet you do not know [the least thing] about what may happen in your life tomorrow. [What is secure in your life?] You are merely a vapor [like a puff of smoke or a wisp of steam from a cooking pot] that is visible for a little while and then vanishes [into thin air]. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and we will do this or that.” Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord Job 36:32 Job 37:1-13; Mark 4:38-41; Job 38:12-13

Please provide scripture verses saying 'this' or 'that' are not caused by God. Only ones I know are anthropomorphic. I think your statement is the fallacy of equivalency. You use the term "Law of Nature" in the sense that some unknown power called the "Law of Nature" is not in reality the "Law of God".
>

My statement is common sense. Why would God want to enslave Himself? So if He took a break everything would stop? Its absurd you have freedom to rest God doesn't have.

And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. (Gen. 2:2 NKJ)

As for Isaiah 46:10-11 "God's purpose will stand, no one can prevent it" does not mean He causes you to stub your toe, or pee or whatever else you do.

James 4:13 acknowledges God's sovereignty and His permitting the person doing Business. It says nothing about God causing anything.



>
>

>Alfred Persson said: God permits evil and injustice etc. to exist, because its what Adam and Eve chose, life in a fallen world out side of God's blessing.

>Your use of the word PERMIT suggests dualism. Again I ask, what, who is the power that caused Adam will to do X or Y. Adam's will came from somewhere. Who "programmed" Adam?

Is the writer of Hebrews a "dualist"? And this we will do if God permits. (Heb. 6:3 NKJ)

God doesn't program anyone. As for Adam, Satan got him to eat of the tree, not God. God told Adam not to.
>
>

>Alfred Persson said: But as Christ said, all the evil and injustice in the world will be repaid, by God. No injustice or evil will go unpunished, and no loss suffered because of the Fall will fail to be reversed, in His kingdom.

> Technical point ... since those in hell will be there for eternity and God is just ... it seems all evil and injustice will not be repaid as there will never be enough time to complete God's sentencing.

People cannot be in Hades for all eternity because Hades will be emptied of souls and cast into the lake of fire:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev. 20:13-14 NKJ)

God contradicts you:

Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them.' (Deut. 32:35 NKJ)

Though they join forces, the wicked will not go unpunished; (Prov. 11:21 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

You are in luck, I am a Particular (TULIP) Baptist. Therefore I believe, like all Baptists (Particular and General) in "Individual Soul Liberty" as one of the 5 Baptist Distinctives [things that make a person, a Baptist].

Individual Soul Liberty:​

"Definition: Every individual, whether a believer or an unbeliever, has the freedom to choose what his conscience or soul dictates is right in the religious realm. Soul liberty asks the believer to accept responsibility for his own actions and not try to force anyone else to do or believe anything contrary to his own conscience. However, this liberty is not a justification for disobeying God."​

So from my perspective, you keep disagreeing with the confession with my blessings for as long as your consciense and the Bible convince you of another truth. (Even as I continue to defend truth as I see it).

Romans 14:1-6 [NLT]

Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don't. And those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord's help, they will stand and receive his approval. ​

​

In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God.​

I'm free will Baptist. Good definition.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I said: Define Free Will as you use it. Again, if God does not control an action there was be another entity that does. What is the entity and who created it or is it eternal?

Your response:

Again, I've asked you repeatedly .... DEFINE FREE WILL *sigh* ... at least tell my why you won't answer; after all, FREE WILL apparently is a major aspect of your theology so you must know what it means. DEFINE FREE WILL as you use it.

Your answer is illogical is it is circular reasoning ...
Self-determinism, as proposed by freewill, means one makes choices independent of God (I will define Free Will for you as you refuse to do so) and any other influence. But is logically impossible; it is a circular answer. If there is not a determining cause for the thought process, making a choice would be impossible. To be self-determined, one must be eternal and therefore uncaused. The determinative cause cannot be self-determined, without influence of past experience, state of mind or knowledge. Freewill contradicts this; it says you can reach up into the eternal realm and grab self-determination (uninfluenced). This is not possible. It contradicts the Law of Causality.
When one who supports the idea of Freewill or self-determinism is asked “why you did something he has no answer”. He will resort to a non-answer like “because I wanted to”. When asked why he wanted to he responses “because I choice to want to”; when asked why he choice to want to, he responses “because I wanted to choice to want to” … and on and on the circular reason goes.




You keep proposing verses that portend to support Free Will, yet they do not.
Here's how you do it. It is simple.
1) Find a verse where someone does something (you're good at that part as shown above
2) Look for the cause of the action. If the verse says Joe did X and this was none of God's doing then you've found a Free Will verse. If the verse says Joe did X and this was of God's doing and someone else doing or caused by other external causes; then it is not Free Will
Looking at you example, again the reference does not indicate the cause.

You asked the same question in another post. I can't keep up with all your posts, especially if you don't read my answers and keep repeating the same questions.

Free will is the freedom to choose. And God tells us to choose:

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; (Deut. 30:19 NKJ)

God is not a liar. He would not say we have a choice if we don't have one.

Nothing circular about my answer. I defined Free Will as the opportunity to choose for myself; and produced a Bible Text where God tells us to choose.

God recommends I choose life, He doesn't make the choice for me.

 

[atpollard]

Freedom to choose is free will.

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; (Deut. 30:19 NKJ)

First, that is probably the “normal” definition of Free Will (what most people mean when they use the term). Of course, it only matters in the area of salvation. Few Calvinists argue that you have no power to choose the color of your tie (some do, but they are the minority). Typically they argue that fallen man cannot choose God (so people are not free to believe). [John 6:44 ish].

That said, I am always amused by ‘proof texts’ like Deuteronomy 30:19 when nobody ever bothers to mention that the nation ultimately chose ’death’ and was dragged off to Babylon (as those advocating ‘free will’ hold them up as proof that we can ‘choose life’). I just love the irony of it.

 

[Fastfredy0]

If you smear me with such labels or get stupid asking "from who did God learn", our conversation is over.

I didn't say you were a deist. I said you are a "partial deist".
See post #139 where I said:

Technically, since you believe God intervenes at times in His creation I suppose you are a partial deist. Partial deism, an interesting position to take

This is in response to you saying below in post 128:

God's creation follows natural laws, He doesn't cause tornados or earthquakes unless He has specific reasons for doing so. Most of the time, s...t happens and its not His doing.

Definition of Deism: A religious belief holding that God created the universe and established rationally comprehensible moral and natural laws but does not intervene in human affairs through miracles or supernatural revelation.

So. Since you said "

God's creation follows natural laws, He doesn't cause tornados or earthquakes

... and since this partially fits the definition of Deism.. see https://duckduckgo.com/?q=define+deism&t=newext&atb=v297-1&ia=definition
You, to a degree have beliefs in common with deism and this justifies me calling you a "partial Deist".

If you want to end the conversation, that's fine.

I believe there is not an atom that exists that God does not sustain and you believe, as deists do ... that tornados and earthquake happen under a power of their own and God is just an observer.
_____________________________

Re: I asked you to define Free Will and give scripture references.

Freedom to choose is free will.

Well, this definition is incomplete. FREEDOM from what/who? Freedom from God, from your parents influence, from the mind and body you have been given? WHAT ARE YOU FREE FROM!!!
Thank you for finally partially answering my question.

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; (Deut. 30:19 NKJ)

Well, I grant that this is a "choice" which is part of Free Will .... now where in the verse does it say the person's choice is Free. You are just assuming it. Find a verse like this:

• Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings. This is an example of a verse with choice and who determines that choice.
• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. [Your life is written (not recorded) by God, we follow His script and not our own … puppets]

Aside: Again, you Free Will definition is incomplete... Please define the FREE part; what/who is our choices free from?

God is not a liar. He would not say we have a choice if we don't have one.

Agreed on both points. God never lies and God gives us limited choices. But the choices are not 'free' from God's determination. God will cause you to choice whatever your heart pleases to choose in many circumstances. God also fashions your desires so you will always choose what He desires. This gives the superior God freedom to make an unaffected choices and the inferior (you and I) will choice according to our desires which God has fashioned according to God's freedom to choose.

Nothing circular about my answer. I defined Free Will as the opportunity to choose for myself; and produced a Bible Text where God tells us to choose.

Completely circular. I even drew you a verbal picture.
When one who supports the idea of Freewill or self-determinism is asked “why you did something he has no answer”. He will resort to a non-answer like “because I wanted to”. When asked why he wanted to he responses “because I choice to want to”; when asked why he choice to want to, he responses “because I wanted to choice to want to” … and on and on the circular reason goes. It contradicts the Law of Causality.

God recommends I choose life, He doesn't make the choice for me.

I given verses saying God determines everything you do. You can find a verse saying you did anything that God did not determine for you. The best you can do is assume that when God says choose A or B you assume you did it independent of God (or whatever ... you never defined the "FREE" part of "Free Will".
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is being controlled or governed by God and therefore he is dependent on God for all things including FAITH?

 

[Fastfredy0]

First, that is probably the “normal” definition of Free Will (what most people mean when they use the term).

Agreed, and they almost always don't define the "free" part of "free will". Free from what/who? Alfred Persson 's definition was incomplete.
Everyone who is lucid has a WILL ... but a FREE Will needs clarification.

Few Calvinists argue that you have no power to choose the color of your tie (some do, but they are the minority).

I don't know about majority/minority numbers and that is not really relevant. Truth is what matters, not a democratic vote. There is no scripture I know saying we pick anything that was not determined by God.
Aside: Alfred Persson did give Isaiah 54:15 ... that is the only maybe and it would contradict other verses saying God determines/decrees all things.

Typically they argue that fallen man cannot choose God (so people are not free to believe). [John 6:44 ish].

Agreed. Scripture addresses the cause of a salvific choice 100s of times; whereas, a man's choice of Pepsi or Coke is not referenced. Nevertheless, there are many verses that allude to the conclusion that God caused an individual to choose Pepsi or Coke in a particular instance. I like Pepsi. I think I am in 20% minority. Dr. Thunder fits my budget. God made me frugal and determined my choice. *giggle*

 

[atpollard]

I don't know about majority/minority numbers and that is not really relevant.

It is if you talk to people. The “majority” will think one way (and mean one thing) while the minority will think another way (and mean another thing). If you run around ascribing the minority view to “most people” you will be making incorrect assumptions most of the time.

However, I will concede that TRUTH is not determined by a majority vote. (Or we would all be ‘animists’ and the world would be flat … those were the majority view at one point.)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Again, this is dualism. Again I ask, who gave Satan his will to do X or Y?? Where does it says Satan is not controlled by God. The story of Job is a step by step example of God controlling the evil Satan does. (Aside: I know in a previous post you said something like "this is an exception" but that avoids our observations.)
Genesis 45:5 Now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me [Joseph] here, for God sent me ahead of you to save life and preserve our family.



We disagree. The plain reading of the text says God is the cause.

• Exodus 3:21 I will give this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians
• Exodus 4:11 The Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute or the deaf, or the seeing or the blind? Is it not I, the Lord? 12 Now then go, and I, even I, will be with your mouth, and will teach you what you shall say.”
• Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.
• Exodus 14:17 “And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen.”
• Numbers 22:38 “Have I now any power at all to say anything? The word that God puts in my mouth, that shall I speak.”
• Job 23:14a “For He performs what is planned (appointed) for me,
• Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect. [puppets … our thoughts and plans are of NO EFFECT]
• Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings.

I can do many more verses. Give me a verse saying God did not cause something save an anthropomorphic verse.

Not dualism. Satan is controlled, but his actions are his own. Like I'm controlled by the Government "not to steal", but its my choice not to steal. That is not "dualism".

Also your "plain readings" of scripture either are irrelevant, wrong or ignore I already refuted your interpretation of it:

This does not say God will control the Egyptians. The miracles God did impressed the Egyptians, to the benefit of the Israelites:

• Exodus 3:21 I will give this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians

You took Exodus 4:11 out of context, God isn't saying the earth's mute, deaf and blind are His handiwork.

God said He would be with Moses (Exod. 3:8) But Moses put no faith in that promise:

11 But Moses said to God, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and free the Israelites from Egypt?"
12 And He said, "I will be with you; (Exod. 3:11-12 TNK)

Moses again made excuses, and God was a bit irritated and says: "Who gives man speech? Who makes him dumb or deaf, seeing or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?"

10 But Moses said to the LORD, "Please, O Lord, I have never been a man of words, either in times past or now that You have spoken to Your servant; I am slow of speech and slow of tongue."
11 And the LORD said to him, "Who gives man speech? Who makes him dumb or deaf, seeing or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
12 Now go, and I will be with you as you speak and will instruct you what to say." (Exod. 4:10-12 TNK)

God proves Moses' lack of faith was unfounded, He has unlimited power over the senses, He can give or take away.

I don't expect you will accept that interpretation, it requires understanding the context.

Scripture interprets scripture. When Christ was asked what caused a man to be born blind, Christ said it wasn't because of sin, but "that the works of God should be revealed in him". The "work of God was NOT blindness", it was Christ healing him.

Therefore, his being blind was NOT a work of God.

This fallen world produces many children with birth defects, but that's because its fallen, our DNA is corrupt. Adam and Eve were kicked out of paradise where God would not permit our DNA break down.

But this man born blind is a special case. God was very aware of him in the womb, and knew one day Jesus would heal him, and so He permitted the blindness occur so that Christ would heal him at the appointed time. AND we know from the Context this cure really caused a stir among the Pharisees:

1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.
4 "I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work.
5 "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
6 When He had said these things, He spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva; and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay.
7 And He said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam " (which is translated, Sent). So he went and washed, and came back seeing. (Jn. 9:1-7 NKJ)

As for Pharaoh, he hardened his own heart (Ex. 7:13) when God Satan do miracles through Pharaoh's magicians. They duplicated the miracles Moses did and that emboldened Pharaoh, gave him the courage to do what his free will choice was, to resist God.

That is how God hardens hearts, by orchestrating events so people manifest their evil in situations that reveal God's glory and Name (Exod. 9:16;. Rom. 9:22-23). No "hardening energy" goes from God to the heart:

10 So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the LORD commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
14 So the LORD said to Moses: "Pharaoh's heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go. (Exod. 7:10-14 NKJ)

But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said. (Exod. 8:15 NKJ)

Job doesn't say God is controlling anyone's actions, how you see that this verse is odd:

He will certainly accomplish what He has decreed for me, and He has many more things like these in mind. (Job 23:14 CSB)

Psalm 33:10 says God frustrates the plans of the nations, it does not say God caused them:

Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect. [puppets … our thoughts and plans are of NO EFFECT]

You took the blessing of God in Psalm 33:15 out of context, God fashions the hearts of the nations so they bless His people. He knows their schemes, saves not by an army etc., but by changing hearts from what they planned to do.

12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, The people He has chosen as His own inheritance.
13 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men.
14 From the place of His dwelling He looks On all the inhabitants of the earth;
15 He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works.
16 No king is saved by the multitude of an army; A mighty man is not delivered by great strength.
17 A horse is a vain hope for safety; Neither shall it deliver any by its great strength.
18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is on those who fear Him, On those who hope in His mercy,
19 To deliver their soul from death, And to keep them alive in famine.
20 Our soul waits for the LORD; He is our help and our shield. (Ps. 33:12-20 NKJ)
Compare:

29 Happy are you, O Israel! Who is like you, a people saved by the LORD, The shield of your help And the sword of your majesty! Your enemies shall submit to you, And you shall tread down their high places." (Deut. 33:29 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe there is not an atom that exists that God does not sustain and you believe, as deists do ... that tornados and earthquake happen under a power of their own and God is just an observer.
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Aside: Again, you Free Will definition is incomplete... Please define the FREE part; what/who is our choices free from?

I have repeatedly said in Christ all things consist (Col. 1:17)

And its elementary what Free Will is:

Freedom to choose for ourselves, no outside control.

God asked us to choose, therefore we have the ability and opportunity to choose, i.e., free will:

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; (Deut. 30:19 NKJ)

If God made our choices it would be deception He ask us to choose. God is not a deceiver.