1John 3:9 What does it mean?

[childeye]

I agree with JLB in this one respect concerning freewill and the scriptures that he posted above. Christ has set us all free from the bondage of sin whose power and strength came from the Law (1 Cor 15:56).

Everyone has the freewill to place themselves back under the bondage of the Law, and many, many do!

Yes but that is not freewill according to the dictionary definition. According to the dictionary definition, there is no such thing as bondage to the law nor being freed by Christ.

 

[childeye]

will 1
(wĭl)
n.
1. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action:

free′ will′
n.
1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision.
2. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.
di·vine
(dĭ-vīn′)
adj. di·vin·er, di·vin·est
1.
a. Having the nature of or being a deity.
force
(fôrs)
n.
1. The capacity to do work or cause physical change; energy, strength, or active power:
Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Galatians 4:3
So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world.
Galatians 4:9
But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?
Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms
2 Timothy 2:26
and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

 

[gr8grace3]

The hard truth is that Scripture has given us 2 glaring examples of believers who ended their lives in sin and yet were saved.

First example is Solomon. I don't think anyone doubts that he was a believer, and Jesus quoted him many times. If he ended up in hell, I doubt that Jesus would have quoted him. But 1 Kings 11:1-11 reveals how he ended up when he "was old". His wives turned his heart from the Lord. The result was that God tore the kingdom from him. If he had repented of what is described in 1 Kings 11, and then wrote Ecclesiastes, why did God tear the kingdom away from him? The only sensible answer is that he didn't repent at the end of his life when he "was old".

Second example is King Saul. We know why he died and by Whom from 1 Chron 10:13-14 - 13So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

This is an example of what John called the "sin unto death" in 1 Jn 5:16.

How do we know he was saved and went to paradise, where all the OT saints went after death? 1 Sam 28:19 tells us:
“Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

The Biblical narrative says that Samuel came from the dead to tell Saul that because he screwed up, he would "be with me" the next day.

I know that some will say that Samuel only meant that Saul would "join him in the grave". But that's not how believers living in paradise talk. To say "tomorrow you will be with me" means exactly that: tomorrow you're going to be with me where I'm living; paradise.

Others might argue that it wasn't really Samuel at that seance? Oh, really? Then why does the Bible SAY that Samuel appeared and spoke to Saul? And the Bible attributes the words spoken to Samuel.

So even King Saul went to paradise when he died on the next day.

The easy truth for the believer is your saved.PERIOD. Now grow in that grace and knowledge.

The believer who is an idiot and sits on his duff.......lose your rewards, blessings and see the discipline of the Lord. Its going to be a hard life to the get to the reality of their salvation.

The believer who is an idiot with bible doctrine and believed they had to work for their salvation their WHOLE lives, will have the surprise of being ruled by the Idiot who sat on His duff, but Knew he was saved.:wink

Your a blessing here. Not much truth going around here as of late.

 

[JLB]

However, you have zero scripture to back up your "theory".

The easy truth for the believer is your saved.PERIOD. Now grow in that grace and knowledge.

The believer who is an idiot and sits on his duff.......lose your rewards, blessings and see the discipline of the Lord. Its going to be a hard life to the get to the reality of their salvation.

The believer who is an idiot with bible doctrine and believed they had to work for their salvation their WHOLE lives, will have the surprise of being ruled by the Idiot who sat on His duff, but Knew he was saved.:wink

Your a blessing here. Not much truth going around here as of late.

The is no truth coming from this post, because there is no scripture.


And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32


JLB

 

[JLB]

will 1
(wĭl)
n.
1. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action:

free′ will′
n.
1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision.
2. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.
di·vine
(dĭ-vīn′)
adj. di·vin·er, di·vin·est
1.
a. Having the nature of or being a deity.
force
(fôrs)
n.
1. The capacity to do work or cause physical change; energy, strength, or active power:
Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Galatians 4:3
So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces of the world.
Galatians 4:9
But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again?
Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms
2 Timothy 2:26
and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15



...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve,...But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."


You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This has been clearly refuted, as no one has been able to point to anyone who holds to OSAS as being a "license to sin". The Bible is clear that all humans are born dead in sins. Therefore we don't need a license to sin. It's inherent in our sinful natures. So please, don't peddle such an untrue claim. No one needs a license to sin. We ALL sin, both of us. Are you sinning without a license, or did you obtain one before you began sinning?


Comparing the 3 related passages, "inheriting the kingdom" refers to receiving an inheritance IN the kingdom. It cannot be just getting INTO the kingdom. We know this because Paul described justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God before he said that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. This is black and white. There is no context to look elsewhere for what Paul "might" have meant by 'gift' in 11:29.

Those who believe in conditional security simply won't accept that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable, even though the Bible says so.

Where in any of these verses does one find the words "salvation" or "eternal life" as being "lost"?

You've pointed out that the phrase "eternal life" doesn't occur in Rom 11:29. The road goes both ways. I've shown that Paul defined gift as justification and eternal life and then said that God's gifts are irrevocable. He didn't exclude either of these gifts as being irrevocable, and there is no context to bring in Matt 18.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Does the phrase "eternal life" appear in this scripture. ?

No, it doesn't.

It has to be presumed, by someone who is reading into it, with a preconceived conclusion.

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; Revelation 22:18


JLB

 

[AmbassadorofChrist]

.

Most people want to feel like they deserve salvation because of works they have done. I pray for their soul, that they have trusted the death, burial and resurrection as their all sufficient payment for the debt and penalty of their sins, before they have been blinded by the god of this World.

 

[AmbassadorofChrist]

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Does the phrase "eternal life" appear in this scripture. ?

No, it doesn't.

It has to be presumed, by someone who is reading into it, with a preconceived conclusion.

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; Revelation 22:18


JLB

Though the context of Roms 11 is about Israel's fall and it is referring to their promises. What gifts would you say it is talking about? I would assume if all of Israel's promises are without repentance, wouldn't ours be as well? Maybe everyone but eternal life?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

bcbsr said this:
"In this case John is saying that sinning is uncharacteristic of those born of God, not denying that it doesn't occur uncharactertically from time to time. Those born of God don't live a lifestyle of sin. And this is a distinguishing mark of those born of God. Thus when Paul says, "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1Cor 6:9,10 it is not that salvation is contingent upon one's behavior, but rather that there simply doesn't exists any such person who lives a lifestyle of sin who has been born of God."

His exposition was fine until that last statement and then citing 1 Cor 6:9,10. His claim is that those born of God basically will not (or cannot) life a lifestyle of sin.

Yet, we have Biblical evidence of just that. Solomon, when he "was old". 1 kings 11:1-13 says so.

Some will respond that he repented after that and then wrote Ecclesiastes. But given the passage from 1 Kings, why did God remove the kingdom from him as a direct result of his sin if he had repented?
v.11 - So the LORD said to Solomon, “Because you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant.

Another example is King Saul. We know from that once in a lifetime seance, when Samuel actually did return to talk with Saul, told Saul that he would join him the next day (1 Sam 28:19). Some will say that only meant "join him in the grave". But is that how a believer who has been in paradise would talk? No. Because Samuel wasn't "in the grave". He was alive in Paradise. And he told Saul that he would join him the next day. The only meaning is that Saul would be with Samuel in Paradise, proving that he was a believer.

Yet, consider how the Bible describes his death:
1 Chor 10:13,14 - 13So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

Saul, David, and Solomon never rejected the promises made to Abraham. They all failed in regard to the law, just like all believers do, but they never gave up on God's promises concerning the kingdom. What we saw in their lives was their struggle with sin, not a struggle with the kingdom promise itself.

What we don't see in them, and in us who believe and continue to believe, is a wholesale return to life as an unbeliever living in a rejection and contempt for the kingdom of God, bereft of the the grace of God.

'Born of God' is defined by one who believes that Jesus is the Christ:
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..." (1 John 5:1 NASB)
But your doctrine is trying to make it so that when you aren't born of God (that is, not living in obedience, as you define the term), but rather are born of the devil (living in disobedience, as you define that), you are still a believer in Jesus Christ, but just being disobedient. But John says it is belief that Jesus is the Christ that defines you as born of God, not the devil.

 

[JLB]

Though the context of Roms 11 is about Israel's fall and it is referring to their promises. What gifts would you say it is talking about? I would assume if all of Israel's promises are without repentance, wouldn't ours be as well? Maybe everyone but eternal life?

The gift of grace which empowers to answer the call.

For the Gospel is the power of a God unto salvation. Romans 1:16

 

[JLB]

Though the context of Roms 11 is about Israel's fall and it is referring to their promises. What gifts would you say it is talking about? I would assume if all of Israel's promises are without repentance, wouldn't ours be as well? Maybe everyone but eternal life?

You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:19-21

if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.


JLB

 

[AmbassadorofChrist]

The gift of grace which empowers to answer the call.

For the Gospel is the power of a God unto salvation. Romans 1:16

Ahh, a presumption.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Gifts is plural, meaning more then one. something empowering us to answer a call is also a presumption, it does not say this in Roms 1:16. your adding to the bible.

 

[AmbassadorofChrist]

You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Romans 11:19-21

if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.


JLB

Romans 11:1-2 - I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Romans 11: 25-26 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

It helps to read the entire context, not just what you want to see.

 

[childeye]

15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15



...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve,...But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."


You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


JLB

I'm not sure what to make of this post. Are you still supporting freewill? For you end with the scripture the Truth will set you free, which is what I have been saying, that the only freewill is one set free by the Truth. But then you are highlighting Joshua 24:15 as if you still agree with the dictionary definition of freewill.

I posted the term 'will' and 'freewill' so as to draw a clear distinction between the two. That is to say, that the 'will' is the ability to choose. According to scripture we each have a will, the ability to choose. Of course we don't need scripture or a dictionary to know that. I make many choices everyday. But morally speaking, according to scripture, we do not have a freewill, which is an important distinction. It means we need God to be good. Even Jesus said this. Mark 10:18. The moral choice is predicated on the spiritual composition of the person making the decision. Hence 1 John 3:9-10 teaches contrary to freewill.

You keep posting Joshua 24:15 as if to prove freewill. I say this because you highlight in red, "choose for yourselves" as if this shows freewill. Therefore I posted the definition of 'will' to show we need only a will to choose for ourselves not a freewill. So that you know that just because it says "choose for yourselves' that does not substantiate that the will is free. Note also that I keep posting the qualifier that shows that the will that would choose other than God is evil and therefore not free. 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord'. So Joshua 24:15 does not contradict 1 John 3:9-10. Nor do either of these scriptures support the dictionary definition of freewill, they in fact say the opposite. The whole entirety of the scriptures is that there is a God Who is Eternal and Who is the Spirit of Love. Anyone who would think it evil to serve God, is deceived and possessed by evil. Their will is not free. I've given many scriptures all using the terms 'captive' and 'slavery' so as to support that the will of the wicked is not free.

 

[Deborah13]

Saul, David, and Solomon never rejected the promises made to Abraham. They all failed in regard to the law, just like all believers do, but they never gave up on God's promises concerning the kingdom. What we saw in their lives was their struggle with sin, not a struggle with the kingdom promise itself.

What we don't see in them, and in us who believe and continue to believe, is a wholesale return to life as an unbeliever living in a rejection and contempt for the kingdom of God, bereft of the the grace of God.

 

[JLB]

I'm not sure what to make of this post. Are you still supporting freewill? For you end with the scripture the Truth will set you free, which is what I have been saying, that the only freewill is one set free by the Truth. But then you are highlighting Joshua 24:15 as if you still agree with the dictionary definition of freewill.

I posted the term 'will' and 'freewill' so as to draw a clear distinction between the two. That is to say, that the 'will' is the ability to choose. According to scripture we each have a will, the ability to choose. Of course we don't need scripture or a dictionary to know that. I make many choices everyday. But morally speaking, according to scripture, we do not have a freewill, which is an important distinction. It means we need God to be good. Even Jesus said this. Mark 10:18. The moral choice is predicated on the spiritual composition of the person making the decision. Hence 1 John 3:9-10 teaches contrary to freewill.

You keep posting Joshua 24:15 as if to prove freewill. I say this because you highlight in red, "choose for yourselves" as if this shows freewill. Therefore I posted the definition of 'will' to show we need only a will to choose for ourselves not a freewill. So that you know that just because it says "choose for yourselves' that does not substantiate that the will is free. Note also that I keep posting the qualifier that shows that the will that would choose other than God is evil and therefore not free. 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord'. So Joshua 24:15 does not contradict 1 John 3:9-10. Nor do either of these scriptures support the dictionary definition of freewill, they in fact say the opposite. The whole entirety of the scriptures is that there is a God Who is Eternal and Who is the Spirit of Love. Anyone who would think it evil to serve God, is deceived and possessed by evil. Their will is not free. I've given many scriptures all using the terms 'captive' and 'slavery' so as to support that the will of the wicked is not free.

We all have a choice to come to Christ and believe the Gospel, or continue to live in sin.

And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:19

People have a choice, but they choose darkness, because they love darkness rather than light.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Romans 11:1-2 - I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Romans 11: 25-26 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

It helps to read the entire context, not just what you want to see.

The context of Romans 11:29 is what I have shown.

Yet OSAS, says it is impossible for a believer, to be "broken off" because of unbelief or for any reason.

The point Paul makes in vs 25-26, is God has not "cast away" those whom He forknew...

We know He didn't cast them away, but because of unbelief... They were broken off.

Paul is teaching that God has not rejected the natural children of Abraham as a whole, but that they are called to salvation, as all men are.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The believer who is an idiot and sits on his duff.......lose your rewards, blessings and see the discipline of the Lord. Its going to be a hard life to the get to the reality of their salvation.

Yes, this is all true as long as they continue to be a believer.
But the danger is that their disobedience may signify that they have ceased to believe, like soil #2 people in the parable of the sower who had no firm root and stopped believing (Luke 8:13 NASB). That's why we are exhorted to make our calling and election sure, that is, make sure we have really been called and chosen in the first place, and are still among the chosen. Our behavior is how we do that:

9 For he who lacks these qualities (see vs.5-8) is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten * his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you..." (Hebrews 6:9-10 NASB)

Of course, you're going to argue that he's talking about the quality of your place in the kingdom, but as we can plainly see he's telling his readers to make certain about their salvation itself.

The believer who is an idiot with bible doctrine and believed they had to work for their salvation their WHOLE lives...

Hmm....you must be talking about the one, possibly two people I've met in the church, in person and online, in my thirty years as a Christian that believed salvation was earned by doing work.

I know of a vast number more than that think their ungodly, unfruitful, disobedient spirit-less lives can not possibly mean they are not trusting in Christ for the salvation that is given apart from their works, oblivious to the fact that their characteristically disobedient, godless lives show them to have never received that salvation, or lost it through a careless or contemptuous trampling of the blood of Christ, like how the wicked servant in Matthew 18:23-35 lost his free gift of forgiveness, and how Christ said it is in the kingdom of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

However, you have zero scripture to back up your "theory".

In post #32 I said this:
His exposition was fine until that last statement and then citing 1 Cor 6:9,10. His claim is that those born of God basically will not (or cannot) life a lifestyle of sin.

Yet, we have Biblical evidence of just that. Solomon, when he "was old". 1 kings 11:1-13 says so.

Some will respond that he repented after that and then wrote Ecclesiastes. But given the passage from 1 Kings, why did God remove the kingdom from him as a direct result of his sin if he had repented?
v.11 - So the LORD said to Solomon, “Because you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant.

Another example is King Saul. We know from that once in a lifetime seance, when Samuel actually did return to talk with Saul, told Saul that he would join him the next day (1 Sam 28:19). Some will say that only meant "join him in the grave". But is that how a believer who has been in paradise would talk? No. Because Samuel wasn't "in the grave". He was alive in Paradise. And he told Saul that he would join him the next day. The only meaning is that Saul would be with Samuel in Paradise, proving that he was a believer.

Yet, consider how the Bible describes his death:
1 Chor 10:13,14 - 13So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

So, how is this "zero Scripture"?

And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32JLB

And I've provide Scriptural truth of believers who ended their lives poorly yet were saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Does the phrase "eternal life" appear in this scripture. ?

No, it doesn't.

(Edited, ToS 2.4. Obadiah.)

Paul defined what he meant by gift in 3 passages before he noted that God's gifts are irrevocable. So let's look at what Paul MEANT by 'gift':
1:11 is about spiritual gifts. They are irrevocable.
3:24, 5:15,16,17 is about justification. It is irrevocable.
6:23 is about eternal life. It is irrevocable.

None of this has been refute.

It has to be presumed, by someone who is reading into it, with a preconceived conclusion.

It is a direct conclusion from what Paul defined himself as a gift. Bringing in Matt 18 is only trying to make up the meaning of gift in Rom 11:29 when Paul never cited anything from Matt 18. There is no contextual reason to assume anything about what Paul meant. He told us what he meant. It's just that some people don't like his definitions.

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; Revelation 22:18JLB

Exactly! Those who try to insert Matt 18 an make believe that forgiveness is a gift that is revoke has trie to ad to these things.

Paul was very clear: spiritual gifts, justification an eternal life are gifts of God that are irrevocable.