2 evidences that water baptism doesn't save anyone

[JCitoL]

ANd what things are those?
"All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." (NKJV)
"All things" leaves no "uncaused" things or any matter (matter is a "thing") available with which to fabricate other things.

the Word: "all things were made through Him"
the reader: how?!, did He really make all things?!
the Word: "without Him nothing was made that was made"

so the second clause of the sentence is not in vain given, because it is explanatory, for it explains the first clause

all things that were made were made with Him - this is the meaning of the whole sentence

and God made things that were not made, because it was necessary that they be made, or would there be life if God did not make (there be) living conditions?!

when God made the human, He also made them be (as) an embodiment of how He is situated as a Creator in the universe, and proceeding from this perspective, how is it possible for a human to make something from nothing?!, so God hardly made something of nothing, because there was a need of some substance to be used as a material for the creation of the atoms and the other elementary particles, or can you imagine something made of nothing?!

You may well imagine such a circumstance. It's what the ancient Greek philosophers imagined. But scripture specifically refutes that concept.

why do you think so?!, why not uncaused universe full of uncaused things considered as God?!, because exactly the active divine moves the things, from this point of view, nothing happens without God

That you can imagine something does not make it possible.
If you are using the Bible as your source, it is not possible because John 1:3 specifically states that all things were created by the Logos.
The word "made" (Gr: γίνομαι translit: ginomai) has the meaning "to come into existence, begin to be, receive being"

things created by the Logos, but from what material?!, how can you imagine an empty space (for example the inside space of a box) filled with things that come from nowhere?!, maybe you are aware of how the uncompressed/unarchived files come from another file called compressed/archive?! - they also come from something/somewhere, so let's say for example the truth and the facts in the form of information are extracted in the beginning of (the) eternity in a way similar to the way (in which) the compressed files are extracted, and that process takes place by itself in the form of living and active Logos, but there must be some compressed information, either in one or another form, however, even if this happens in the beginning, that information is only a plan, while God has to make/create/do the relevant things, albeit according to that plan

Ecclesiastes 3:15 "That which is has been already and that which will be has already been, for God seeks what has passed by."

Where did you get that?
I don't believe that has any scriptural basis.

Mark 4:30-32 "he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom(i.e. the origins) of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It(i.e. in the beginning God) is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth(i.e. which, when it is in the beginning of (the) eternity), is less than all the seeds that be in the earth(i.e. is "less" than all things of the universe): But when it is sown(i.e. but when the beginning of (the) eternity starts), it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs(i.e. than all things of the universe), and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air(i.e. so that many Holy Angels) may lodge under the shadow of it."

Not according to Christian theology or the Bible.

why not according to the Word of God?!

Isaiah 58:11 "the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not."

Baptism is not a process. It is an event. It is the uniting of the believer with Jesus in His death and resurrection.



Jesus did not pass through a process of baptism. The baptism to which He referred in that passage was his crucifixion.

Christian baptism is not a ceremonial washing.

Rom 6:3-7 (NASB)
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
We are united with Christ in His death and resurrection.
As the God/man Jesus Christ rose from the grave to eternal life, so does the believer rise from baptism to eternal life.
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.
The old self with it's fallen nature dies and is buried in baptism; the believer is raised to new life (born again) in Christ Jesus.

iakov the fool

has the Lord already saved and provided all human and other besouled beings with abundant and eternal life?!, so here is how He still has to baptize Himself with Baptism, then how much more do we have to baptize ourselves?!

Revelation 5:1-8 "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

Blessings

 

[stovebolts]

There are 2 Scriptural passages that are about baptism but in fact people were saved by staying dry, rather than by immersion.

1 Peter 3:20-21 - who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ NASB

First, let's notice that Peter said that Noah plus the 7 were brought "safely through the water". He didn't say "by the water". Then, in the next breath, he says "baptism now saves you". Hm. He clarifies what he meant by the next phrase: "not the removala of dirt from the flesh". This is a reference to applying water to the body to remove dirt. So Peter was not referring to water baptism here as to what saves us. In fact, he corresponds baptism with the saving of the 8 "through the water". Obviously none of the 8 were immersed in the flood.

But…the rest of mankind DID get immersed in the flood. They were certainly water baptized, and died as a result. They were not saved by the water; they were killed by the water.

So, Peter is referring to what John the baptist said in Mark 1:8 (and Lk 3:16); “I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” NASB

This is a reference to regeneration, which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit when a person believes in Christ. This baptism is an identification of the believer with Christ, and is referred to as a seal in Eph 1:13 for the day of redemption in Eph 4:30. This is a dry baptism.

Second, Paul wrote that the Exodus generation was "baptized into Moses" in 1 Cor 10:2 - and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea NASB

However, we know that they passed "dry shod" through the Red Sea, per Ex 14:16 - “As for you, lift up your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, and the sons of Israel shall go through the midst of the sea on dry land. NASB

And, who did get "immersed" in the Red Sea? The Egyptian army. All of them. They were not saved by immersion. They were killed by immersion.

So, what was this "baptism into Moses" that Paul wrote about in 1 Cor 10? It was an identification of the people of Israel with Moses. They went through dry, yet it was called a baptism. They Egyptian army got immersed and were destroyed.

These 2 passages demonstrate that water immersion isn't what saves. In fact, in these 2 passages, it is what kills, not saves.

The baptism that saves us is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who regenerates us, gives us eternal life, and seals believers for the day of redemption.

I'm sure you'll skip over this, and no, I haven't' read every page, so please forgive me if this has already been brought up.

I believe you are right in many areas. All the pieces are there, but you have come short of the meaning. In this day and age, it's really no wonder. But its ok. Were all in this journey together. I do hope you'll consider what I've written in the spirit of truth.
The ministry of Jesus started at his very own Baptism. If we are to follow Jesus, we should start where he started. If we cant do a simple thing such as baptism, how will be be able to accomplish the greater things?

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
But as far as your reference to those who died in the days of Noah and Moses, please, consider this with the "New Covenant".
Jesus said,
John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

The thing here to know is that we must die... in order to be born again, and we have been.

Romans 6:3-6 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

we see here that Paul uses the "Planted" metaphor, which goes right in line with what Jesus said. He also talks about the Crucifixion, just as Jesus did.

Matthew 10:38-39 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

I have come to the modest conclusion that I have already died the first death, and I will not taste the second.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We shouldn't have to separate the spiritual from the physical. We are physical and spiritual beings... Spiritual things can occur through the physical.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm sure you'll skip over this, and no, I haven't' read every page, so please forgive me if this has already been brought up.

I always read every post addressed to me.

I believe you are right in many areas. All the pieces are there, but you have come short of the meaning. In this day and age, it's really no wonder. But its ok. Were all in this journey together. I do hope you'll consider what I've written in the spirit of truth.
The ministry of Jesus started at his very own Baptism. If we are to follow Jesus, we should start where he started. If we cant do a simple thing such as baptism, how will be be able to accomplish the greater things?

I have not argued against water baptism, but this thread is about whether water baptism saves.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
But as far as your reference to those who died in the days of Noah and Moses, please, consider this with the "New Covenant".
Jesus said,
John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

The thing here to know is that we must die... in order to be born again, and we have been.

I don't see the relevance between those who died in the flood and Red Sea (both involved immersion in water) and John 12:24-26.

And, Paul taught that we are all born spiritually dead (Eph 2:1). So we don't have to die before we're born again.

Romans 6:3-6 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

we see here that Paul uses the "Planted" metaphor, which goes right in line with what Jesus said. He also talks about the Crucifixion, just as Jesus did.

No one is "planted" in baptism. The Egyptian army and all of humanity except 8 were planted in the waters and died. And planting has to do with staying in the ground, like a seed, in order to grow. So I don't see the word 'planted' as being related to water baptism.

Matthew 10:38-39 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

I have come to the modest conclusion that I have already died the first death, and I will not taste the second.

The Bible does speak of two deaths. I believe the first death is physical death, which everyone (with few exceptions) will experience. But only unbelievers will experience the Second Death, or the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

These are unbelievers.

We shouldn't have to separate the spiritual from the physical. We are physical and spiritual beings... Spiritual things can occur through the physical.

OK, but how does this relate to water baptism?

Do you believe that one must be water baptized in order to be saved?

 

[JLB]

Do you believe that one must be water baptized in order to be saved?

Why then did you not believe him?’

I believe, therefore I obeyed.

Those who believe AND....

Personally I believe what Jesus said... Those who believe and are Baptised will be saved.

I have been Baptised in water and also in the Holy Spirit, with the evidence that follows.

But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ Matthew 21:24-25

Do you believe you can disobey the Gospel and be saved?


JLB

 

[Webb]

Why then did you not believe him?’

I believe, therefore I obeyed.

Those who believe AND....

Personally I believe what Jesus said... Those who believe and are Baptised will be saved.

I have been Baptised in water and also in the Holy Spirit, with the evidence that follows.

But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ Matthew 21:24-25

Do you believe you can disobey the Gospel and be saved?
When you were baptized in the Holy Spirit what was "the evidence that followed"?

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Why then did you not believe him?’

I believe, therefore I obeyed.

Those who believe AND....

Personally I believe what Jesus said... Those who believe and are Baptised will be saved.

I have been Baptised in water and also in the Holy Spirit, with the evidence that follows.

But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ Matthew 21:24-25

Do you believe you can disobey the Gospel and be saved?JLB

Thoe who rightly divide the Word of Truth (2 Tim 2:15) know that water baptism is a ritual or symbol, a ceremony which signifies being united with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. It's a picture. The baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is NOT a water baptism.

Both Jesus and John the baptist were clear about the difference between the immerson baptism of John the baptist and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If being immersed in water saves, why weren't the Egyptian army and all of humanity saved when they were immersed in watert? They, in fact, were destroyed by the water; not saved at all.

Yet, both incidents are described as a baptism of those who stayed dry. The Jews crossed the Red Sea on DRY ground and were saved from the Egyptians, and the 8 in the ark were saved FROM the water.

Water baptism is a symbol: "20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of agood conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Pet 3:20-21

How could it be more clear than this: "this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you".

iow, the baptism that now saves you is symbolized by water baptism.

Everyone who believes in Christ is baptised with the Holy Spirit. That's how one is saved. Not by being dunked in a tank of water.

Just ask the Egyptian army or the entire human race minus the 8 in the ark how it all worked out for them.

 

[JLB]

Thoe who rightly divide the Word of Truth (2 Tim 2:15) know that water baptism is a ritual or symbol, a ceremony which signifies being united with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. It's a picture. The baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is NOT a water baptism.

I noticed you continue to state your opinion, on a very foundation Church doctrine, and give no scripture.

So... I will do likewise and ignore your post, until you provide a scripture it is not water baptism that saves, but rather, it's some other Baptism.

In the meantime, Here is a question Jesus has -

Was John's Baptism from Heaven, or from men?

The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?” And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ Matthew 21:25



JLB

 

[JLB]

20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of agood conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Pet 3:20-21

What version of Scripture it that?

You are required to label the scripture with an appropriate version tag.

Here is how it is rendered in the NKJV.

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:20-21

And KJV

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV

How could it be more clear than this: "this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you".

What the scripture in 1 Peter is teaching us is: the water [of Noah's day], symbolizes Baptism, which now saves us.

Not water baptism is a symbol.

Everyone who believes in Christ is baptised with the Holy Spirit.

Not even close. [Another opinion with no scripture.]


Here's what the scriptures teach us about this subject:

• Example 1: ...They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17

• These folks had received the Gospel and been Baptized in the name of Jesus, but had not been Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Example 2: “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:2-5


When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.


Believing the Gospel, and being Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, DOES NOT mean a person has been Baptised in the Holy Spirit or receives the Holy Spirit.


JLB

 

[Webb]

Thoe who rightly divide the Word of Truth (2 Tim 2:15) know that water baptism is a ritual or symbol, a ceremony which signifies being united with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. It's a picture. The baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is NOT a water baptism.

Both Jesus and John the baptist were clear about the difference between the immerson baptism of John the baptist and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If being immersed in water saves, why weren't the Egyptian army and all of humanity saved when they were immersed in watert? They, in fact, were destroyed by the water; not saved at all.

Yet, both incidents are described as a baptism of those who stayed dry. The Jews crossed the Red Sea on DRY ground and were saved from the Egyptians, and the 8 in the ark were saved FROM the water.

Water baptism is a symbol: "20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of agood conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Pet 3:20-21

How could it be more clear than this: "this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you".

iow, the baptism that now saves you is symbolized by water baptism.

Everyone who believes in Christ is baptised with the Holy Spirit. That's how one is saved. Not by being dunked in a tank of water.

Just ask the Egyptian army or the entire human race minus the 8 in the ark how it all worked out for them.

But, you didn't answer my question!

 

[Jim Parker]

when God made the human, He also made them be (as) an embodiment of how He is situated as a Creator in the universe, and proceeding from this perspective, how is it possible for a human to make something from nothing?!, so God hardly made something of nothing, because there was a need of some substance to be used as a material for the creation of the atoms and the other elementary particles, or can you imagine something made of nothing?!

That is not logical.
God can do anything because He is God. (Including make everything from nothing.)
WE cannot make anything out of nothing because we are creatures, not God.

why not uncaused universe full of uncaused things considered as God?!

Because I believe that the revelation of God found in the Bible is valid and it says otherwise.
Are you a Christian? I ask because your concept of an "uncaused universe full of uncaused things considered as God" os directly out of pagan, Greek philosophy.

 

[FreeGrace]

What version of Scripture it that?

NIV. Here it i again:
20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Here is how the NASB translates it.
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Here is how it is rendered in the NKJV.

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:20-21

And KJV

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV

What saves us is the antitype baptism per NKJV. Or "like figure" baptism. Neither of your translations tell us that water baptism saves anyone.

So why do you persist in claiming it does, when I showed in both Noah's flood and the Red Sea that those who were literally immersed in water were destroyed and those who stayed dry and OUT OF THE WATER were delivered (SAVED)?

What the scripture in 1 Peter is teaching us is: the water [of Noah's day], symbolizes Baptism, which now saves us.

Seriously? 1 Pet 3:20-21

Not water baptism is a symbol.

This isn't a sentence that makes sense.

Example 2: “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:2-5

In the early days of the church, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit wasn't given to Gentiles immediately as it was to the Jews. Your example doesn't work since those early days.

 

[FreeGrace]

But, you didn't answer my question!

I couldn't find any post of yours that asked me a question. Please re-ask.

 

[stovebolts]

I always read every post addressed to me.


I have not argued against water baptism, but this thread is about whether water baptism saves.


I don't see the relevance between those who died in the flood and Red Sea (both involved immersion in water) and John 12:24-26.

And, Paul taught that we are all born spiritually dead (Eph 2:1). So we don't have to die before we're born again.


No one is "planted" in baptism. The Egyptian army and all of humanity except 8 were planted in the waters and died. And planting has to do with staying in the ground, like a seed, in order to grow. So I don't see the word 'planted' as being related to water baptism.


The Bible does speak of two deaths. I believe the first death is physical death, which everyone (with few exceptions) will experience. But only unbelievers will experience the Second Death, or the lake of fire.


These are unbelievers.


OK, but how does this relate to water baptism?

Do you believe that one must be water baptized in order to be saved?

I am replying from my phone, so please forgive my messiness in responding. iPhones are such a pain...

As for the association to those who died in the flood as well as the Red Sea, we must first understand what death represents. You understand the fall in the garden, so we must understand that death shows us that evil is not eternal. The days of evil are counted and we see the end of death when both death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.
Prior to being adopted by God, we are enemies of God... And to be born again, means that which is not eternal must die, just as those who died in the flood, or buried in the Red Sea. You see, we all have a bit of evil in us, and it must be purged.
I know, your probably thinking I'm one of those crazies... And I stake no claim in holding absolute truth in this matter.

But you ask, does baptism save? Scripture states that it does, and you have read the passages that state this point very clearly.

Perhaps it's not baptism to which you hold issue with but the dogma which surrounds the rite. Or perhaps you are stuck in logical thinking where if something is true, then something opposite is false. For example, baptism saves, thus if one is not baptized, they are not saved.

This type of thinking does not represent baptism. What it represents is our attempt to put God in a box that we can count on. This type of thinking is narrow and demands conformity. This type of thinking causes division for a rite that should unite.

Does baptism save? Of course it does. Has everyone who is saved been baptized? No.

Scripture is always held in tension and wisdom if found through discernment, not narrow absolutes that everything must conform as a cookie cutter.

Grace and peace

 

[smaller]

John 3:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Seems clear enough.

When we believe, we are not condemned, and shall not come into condemnation. John 5:22.

So, what do most who insist on external water baptism do? They condemn for not doing so, when Jesus said the opposite IS the case. The intention of condemnation behind not doing water baptism should be enough to prove that the external ritual, if practiced in this way, is legalism all the way. It has taken baptism and turned it into a LAW with a penalty of condemnation for not doing so, when Jesus said that will not and can not happen.

Are water baptism legalists right? Uh, no. They spread condemnation with it and nothing more. And a side of self justification for following that man made up LAW. No different than any other common law, with a penalty, for not doing so.

John 3:
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

 

[Webb]

I couldn't find any post of yours that asked me a question. Please re-ask.

Hi Free Grace--I apologize, I mistook your post for JLB's.

 

[FreeGrace]

I am replying from my phone, so please forgive my messiness in responding. iPhones are such a pain…

Which is why I've stayed with my flip phone.

As for the association to those who died in the flood as well as the Red Sea, we must first understand what death represents. You understand the fall in the garden, so we must understand that death shows us that evil is not eternal. The days of evil are counted and we see the end of death when both death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.
Prior to being adopted by God, we are enemies of God... And to be born again, means that which is not eternal must die, just as those who died in the flood, or buried in the Red Sea. You see, we all have a bit of evil in us, and it must be purged.
I know, your probably thinking I'm one of those crazies... And I stake no claim in holding absolute truth in this matter.

My only point in noting who died in the flood and the Red Sea was that they were the ones who were immersed in water, and those associated with baptism in those 2 incidents were dry.

But you ask, does baptism save? Scripture states that it does, and you have read the passages that state this point very clearly.

I believe my question was about water baptism, not just "baptism". The Bible describes a number of specific and different baptisms. My question was about NT water baptism for those who have believed in Christ.

I do not find any verses that indicate that immersion in water baptism saves anyone's soul.

Perhaps it's not baptism to which you hold issue with but the dogma which surrounds the rite. Or perhaps you are stuck in logical thinking where if something is true, then something opposite is false. For example, baptism saves, thus if one is not baptized, they are not saved.

OK, seems you're referring to the "rite" of baptism. What Scripture tells us that water immersion baptism saves?

Does baptism save? Of course it does. Has everyone who is saved been baptized? No.

Why ignore the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which was clearly distinguished from John's water baptism?

Scripture is always held in tension and wisdom if found through discernment, not narrow absolutes that everything must conform as a cookie cutter.

Grace and peace

I do not agree that Scripture is held in tension. When whatever seems to be in tension is fully and correctly understood, there is no tension.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi Free Grace--I apologize, I mistook your post for JLB's.

No problem.

 

[WIP]

Let's keep the thread on topic please. I encourage starting a new thread to discuss other topics.

 

[JLB]

NIV. Here it i again:
20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Here is how the NASB translates it.
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ


What saves us is the antitype baptism per NKJV. Or "like figure" baptism. Neither of your translations tell us that water baptism saves anyone.

So why do you persist in claiming it does, when I showed in both Noah's flood and the Red Sea that those who were literally immersed in water were destroyed and those who stayed dry and OUT OF THE WATER were delivered (SAVED)?


Seriously? 1 Pet 3:20-21


This isn't a sentence that makes sense.

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:20-21

And KJV

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV

The symbol or type of water Baptism was the water of Noah's day.

The antitype that the type or symbol pointed to is water baptism.

The Point: Water Baptism is not just a symbol, as you claim.

Here is the quote from the post where you made this claim.

Thoe who rightly divide the Word of Truth (2 Tim 2:15) know that water baptism is a ritual or symbol, a ceremony which signifies being united with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. It's a picture. The baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is NOT a water baptism.

Here is what Peter said -

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

In the early days of the church, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit wasn't given to Gentiles immediately as it was to the Jews. Your example doesn't work since those early days.

In the early days of the church, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit wasn't given to Gentiles immediately as it was to the Jews. Your example doesn't work since those early days.

The Holy Spirit comes after a person believes on the Lord.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17


44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10:44-48

Peter made sure these Gentiles who had been Baptized in the Holy Spirit were baptized in water.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:20-21

And KJV

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV

The symbol or type of water Baptism was the water of Noah's day.

The antitype that the type or symbol pointed to is water baptism.

The Point: Water Baptism is not just a symbol, as you claim.

Here is the quote from the post where you made this claim.

Here is what Peter said -

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

The Holy Spirit comes after a person believes on the Lord.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 10:44-48

Peter made sure these Gentiles who had been Baptized in the Holy Spirit were baptized in water.JLB

<sigh>

Salvation is by being baptized by the Holy Spirit, NOT by being immersed in water. Which Peter explained in 1 Pet 3:20-21.

And again, I'll point out that in the 2 incidents in which some were said to be "baptized", actually stayed DRY and out of the water, while those who actually got immersed in water were destroyed.

Noah's flood. The 8 were saved THROUGH the water, not IN the water. Those in the water, the rest of the human race, were destroyed. 1 Pet 3:21

The Red Sea. The Jews were said to be "baptized into Moses and the Sea", 1 Cor 10:1-3. Yet, they went through the Red Sea as on dry ground, while the Egyptian army were immersed in water and were destroyed.

So it is clear that water baptism is a symbol, a ritual. It saves no one.

John the baptist distinguished his baptism, which was of water, with the baptism of Jesus, which was of the Holy Spirit.

One was wet, the other was dry.