A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[GodsGrace]

Their theology blasphemes God because it is a Christ-less Gospel that promotes the false idea that people are saved apart from believing in Jesus Christ.



JLB

The gospel is the good news.
There is no good news in what reformed theology teaches.

I have often asked WHAT IS THE GOOD NEWS in the reformed gospel
but I have yet to receive an answer.

Because there is no answer.

The good news is that man is in a fallen state but has the opportunity to be saved and be one with God if he accepts the good news that Jesus died for every man on earth that is willing to believe and obey.

Perhaps someone on the thread would like to reply NOW to my question...
I doubt it.

 

[jasonc]

Denominations are not of God.


You are either a follower of Jesus Christ because you believe and practice (obey) His teaching or you don’t have God.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1




JLB

In short we must be robots .

Everyone must like and use the same language ,and agree 100 percent .

Good luck in Spanish only churches in America where they simply don't use or even know English .

The worship leader and his wife can ,but he is fluent in Korean and Spanish ,English .most of his members don't speak English.

Yet they have worshipped with us reformed .via a translator.

 

[GodsGrace]

*short interlude*

wondering
Despite our disagreements, I do respect you as a strong Christian woman who does her homework.

O.K. ... back to fighting ... hopefully you will go to bed so we can have the final word.

I doubt you'll have the last word unless I go to sleep!
Guess you've noticed how insistent I am.
That's because this is an important topic for me.
10 years of study doesn't just disappear because some guys want to knock you down for your beliefs.

I do wish we could be more serious about this...
but, alas, you guys only answer to what you want to.

NO ONE has ever answered my posts fully.
A bit here, a bit there,

atpollard was doing pretty good at the beginning, but I see he gave up too.

I have 3 books here ready to go:
The bible
The Institutes (4 books)
The WCF

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one here that understands English - both the old and the new....
I wonder if we're reading the same paragraphs....

 

[brightfame52]

They way we are born again, become spiritually alive, is by believing.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16





JLB

Believing is the evidence of Spiritual life, until made spiritually alive, one is dead, cant believe while dead, no life

 

[GodsGrace]

Every Christian thinks God is Love, Merciful and Just. You defined these words according to whatever and then find Reform people at fault for to compiling with your definition.
Reform people think God is Love, Merciful and Just because He says so anything He does is Love, Merciful and Just.
Man has a depraved mind. What does he know. My ways are not your ways, my thoughts not your thoughts ....

Oh for goodness sakes.
LOVE MEANS LOVE
MERCIFUL MEANS MERCIFUL
JUST MEANS JUST

YOU could THINK whatever you want to think,
IF God doesn't DEMONSTRATE IT,
It ain't so.

My mind is not so depraved that I don't know if my husband really loves me or not.

Jesus came to let us know God's ways.
Jesus came to let us know God's thoughts.

Some of them anyway - the ones necessary to know so WE COULD GET SAVED.

Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

WHERE does it state that those that confess ARE ALREADY SAVED?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
This tells us HOW we are saved.
And even gives the ORDO SALUTIS.
Grace saves us.
Through faith.
Faith comes first and then salvation.


Acts 2:38
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”


Did Paul say to sit around and wait for God to CALL the jailor?
No. He told him to BELIEVE IN THE LORD and he would be saved.

It's very clear that the jailor was not already saved but wanted to know HOW TO BECOME SAVED.

Again, we have the ORDO SALUTIS:
BELIEVE IN JESUS
BE SAVED


Matthew 7:21 Jesus Said
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. "


Do we want to believe Jesus?
Not everyone will enter the Kingdom of Heave,
BUT THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF THE FATHER.

How do you explain that one away?

BTW, yeah, no one ever answers to my verses,
it would be nice if everyone did.
I know it's not easy.

​

 

[brightfame52]

Oh for goodness sakes.
LOVE MEANS LOVE
MERCIFUL MEANS MERCIFUL
JUST MEANS JUST

YOU could THINK whatever you want to think,
IF God doesn't DEMONSTRATE IT,
It ain't so.

My mind is not so depraved that I don't know if my husband really loves me or not.

Jesus came to let us know God's ways.
Jesus came to let us know God's thoughts.

Some of them anyway - the ones necessary to know so WE COULD GET SAVED.

Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

WHERE does it state that those that confess ARE ALREADY SAVED?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
This tells us HOW we are saved.
And even gives the ORDO SALUTIS.
Grace saves us.
Through faith.
Faith comes first and then salvation.


Acts 2:38
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”


Did Paul say to sit around and wait for God to CALL the jailor?
No. He told him to BELIEVE IN THE LORD and he would be saved.

It's very clear that the jailor was not already saved but wanted to know HOW TO BECOME SAVED.

Again, we have the ORDO SALUTIS:
BELIEVE IN JESUS
BE SAVED


Matthew 7:21 Jesus Said
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. "


Do we want to believe Jesus?
Not everyone will enter the Kingdom of Heave,
BUT THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF THE FATHER.

How do you explain that one away?

BTW, yeah, no one ever answers to my verses,
it would be nice if everyone did.
I know it's not easy.

​

Jesus didn't come to show people how to get saved, that's not scriptural, He came to save people from their sins

Matt 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
1 Tim 1:15
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Scripture know nothing of a jesus who came to show people how to get saved. Man needs saving because he is lost and dead to God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Their theology blasphemes God because it is a Christ-less Gospel that promotes the false idea that people are saved apart from believing in Jesus Christ.



JLB

This is absurd and a 9th commandment violation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Oh for goodness sakes.
LOVE MEANS LOVE
MERCIFUL MEANS MERCIFUL
JUST MEANS JUST

YOU could THINK whatever you want to think,
IF God doesn't DEMONSTRATE IT,
It ain't so.

My mind is not so depraved that I don't know if my husband really loves me or not.

Jesus came to let us know God's ways.
Jesus came to let us know God's thoughts.

Some of them anyway - the ones necessary to know so WE COULD GET SAVED.

Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

WHERE does it state that those that confess ARE ALREADY SAVED?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
This tells us HOW we are saved.
And even gives the ORDO SALUTIS.
Grace saves us.
Through faith.
Faith comes first and then salvation.


Acts 2:38
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”


Did Paul say to sit around and wait for God to CALL the jailor?
No. He told him to BELIEVE IN THE LORD and he would be saved.

It's very clear that the jailor was not already saved but wanted to know HOW TO BECOME SAVED.

Again, we have the ORDO SALUTIS:
BELIEVE IN JESUS
BE SAVED


Matthew 7:21 Jesus Said
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. "


Do we want to believe Jesus?
Not everyone will enter the Kingdom of Heave,
BUT THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF THE FATHER.

How do you explain that one away?

BTW, yeah, no one ever answers to my verses,
it would be nice if everyone did.
I know it's not easy.

​

Your verses can and have been answered. It looks like you do not like when that happens.
When you get answered you protest we are being personal???
If we suggest your answers indicate a wrong view, or a lack of understanding on your part, you kind of threaten us saying TOS violation is happening? you cannot have it both ways, can you?

 

[GodsGrace]

But this is my point: If God chooses who will be saved, because he is perfectly just, then he is just in so choosing, even if we can't see it or understand why.

And, yes, we all do deserve hell, that is clear in Scripture. So, if God were to choose even one person to be saved by his grace, then he is worthy to be praised. If he chooses many, through no merit of their own, how much more worthy.

The above is reformed teaching.
It is NOT Christian teaching that is biblical.
Yes. I'm saying that Calvinism is not biblical and it could be proven time and again.

IF God does the choosing,
and it's UNCONDITIONAL, based on nothing at all,
then He is NOT a JUST GOD.

A Just God will base His choosing on something that we can know about so that we can ALL, have a chance to be saved.
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD... that He gave His only begotten Son, SO THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL BE SAVED (WILL NOT PERISH).

What does that mean to you?
Does it sound like God is doing the choosing,
or does it sound like He gives us the opportunity to believe in His Son so that WHOEVER might be saved?
John 3:16

God cannot choose a bunch of persons that were going to hell anyway,
leave the others to damnation (passes over them, as the reformed say),
and STILL be called a JUST GOD.

God is just.
Which is why man seeks justice,,,
so we cannot only SAY that God is just,
HE MUST BE JUST.

Or, we can't depend on Him and we're in very dangerous hands.
And this is not what the NT teaches.


The following Bible verses teach us that God is just. God is moral, and establishes a system of morality that is equitable and fair. Justice is an innate part of God's character. He cannot help but be just, any more than he can help but be good. It is not something he has to strive for or work at - it is simply a part of his nature.

God's justice can be seen throughout the Bible. Moses reminds us that all God's work is perfect, and all His ways are just (Deuteronomy 32:4). The Psalmist reminds us that righteousness and justice are the foundation of God's rule (Psalm 89:14). The apostle Paul teaches us that God is impartial, repaying each person according to what they have done (Romans 2:6).

God loves justice, and teaches his followers to uphold justice, fairness, and equity (Micah 6:8). When we live in a way that is just and fair, we are following in God's footsteps. We are imitating his character, and showing others that we are his disciples. As we do this, we reflect his glory and bring him honor.

God is a just judge, and he always gives to each person what they deserve. This means that he is not swayed by personal preferences or partiality. He does not play favorites.

One day, Jesus will return to judge the nations. The Bible encourages us to examine our lives in light of God's impending judgment. "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed" (Acts 17:30-31). We would be wise to heed this warning.

As you think about the justice of God, ask yourself this question: am I living in a way that is just and fair? If you are not sure, take a moment to examine your heart. Are you always looking out for yourself, or are you also looking out for the good of others? Are you quick to judge others, or are you quick to forgive? Are you always trying to get ahead, or are you content with what you have?

The way we answer these questions will reveal something about the condition of our hearts. The following Bible verses will help to quicken our hearts and renew our minds as we remember that God is just, and He desires for us to reflect His justice in the world.

God is Just​

Deuteronomy 32:4​

The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
source: https://www.biblelyfe.com/blog/god-is-just-verses

 

[GodsGrace]

I haven't studied Calvin. I have too many other things needing my attention. As I go to a reformed church, we recite from the WCF nearly every Sunday and I hear the teaching from the pulpit.

I also have other things needing my attention.
But if I'm going to discuss Catholicism, I like to know about it.
If I'm going to discuss Calvinism, I like to know about it.
And not from other posters, but from the original sources.

Get the WCF.
Read it for yourself.

Let's start with Chapter I
Of the Holy Scripture
Read the first 4 sentences and then tell me what it means and if it makes sense.
Since you go to a reformed church, you should know what the reformed teach.

I have discussed but you don't like my answer. So, yes according to the reformed, we evangelize because Christ told us to; because we are God's hands and feet. Everyone that is to be saved will only be saved by hearing the gospel.

How is that possible if the reformed teach that GOD will CHOOSE who is to be saved and damned?
Do I need to post the Istitutes AGAIN? Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragrah 5
READ IT!

Hearing the gospel is not important in calvinism.
In fact, high calvinism will state this with no problem.
Others cannot accept the truth and mask it over.


John MacArthur can't seem to explain anything when asked.
Everything is a secret or a dilemma, or whatever.
The answer is always that God knows what we can't know.

Do YOU know why you must evangelize?
Why? Is it a mysterY, or do you KNOW WHY?
If you know why, it's time for you to leave that church.

That they believe God chooses who will be saved is irrelevant to that fact. Remember, that is the same as saying God chooses who will believe the gospel, and so be saved. But the gospel has to exist in the first place.

And what is the gospel for the reformed?
What is THE GOOD NEWS?
I've never received a reply.

All the OT is still for us. Jesus most certainly has not shown us exhaustively the mind of God.

He's shown us and taught us what we need to know to be saved.
Didn't Jesus come to earth to teach us how to be saved?
How to behave?
To be our atonement?

Why go through all this IF it's God that chooses, UNCONDITIONALLY, who will be saved or not??

1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (ESV)

And is our spirit not connected to God so that we can know Him?
1 Corinthians 6:17
But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Of course. Same God, remember?

Ummm. I don't think so.
Not if you understand calvinism.

The WCF, chapter I, paragraph VI
states that nothing may be added to scripture, whether by new revelations of the Holy Spirit, or by traditions of men.

Isn't that funny?
Calvinism didn't even exist till the 1,500's.
It was NEVER taught before Luther, Calvin, Knox, etc.
Isn't that adding to scripture?
Isn't that traditions of man?

Later...

 

[jasonc]

The above is reformed teaching.
It is NOT Christian teaching that is biblical.
Yes. I'm saying that Calvinism is not biblical and it could be proven time and again.

IF God does the choosing,
and it's UNCONDITIONAL, based on nothing at all,
then He is NOT a JUST GOD.

A Just God will base His choosing on something that we can know about so that we can ALL, have a chance to be saved.
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD... that He gave His only begotten Son, SO THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL BE SAVED (WILL NOT PERISH).

What does that mean to you?
Does it sound like God is doing the choosing,
or does it sound like He gives us the opportunity to believe in His Son so that WHOEVER might be saved?
John 3:16

God cannot choose a bunch of persons that were going to hell anyway,
leave the others to damnation (passes over them, as the reformed say),
and STILL be called a JUST GOD.

God is just.
Which is why man seeks justice,,,
so we cannot only SAY that God is just,
HE MUST BE JUST.

Or, we can't depend on Him and we're in very dangerous hands.
And this is not what the NT teaches.


The following Bible verses teach us that God is just. God is moral, and establishes a system of morality that is equitable and fair. Justice is an innate part of God's character. He cannot help but be just, any more than he can help but be good. It is not something he has to strive for or work at - it is simply a part of his nature.

God's justice can be seen throughout the Bible. Moses reminds us that all God's work is perfect, and all His ways are just (Deuteronomy 32:4). The Psalmist reminds us that righteousness and justice are the foundation of God's rule (Psalm 89:14). The apostle Paul teaches us that God is impartial, repaying each person according to what they have done (Romans 2:6).

God loves justice, and teaches his followers to uphold justice, fairness, and equity (Micah 6:8). When we live in a way that is just and fair, we are following in God's footsteps. We are imitating his character, and showing others that we are his disciples. As we do this, we reflect his glory and bring him honor.

God is a just judge, and he always gives to each person what they deserve. This means that he is not swayed by personal preferences or partiality. He does not play favorites.

One day, Jesus will return to judge the nations. The Bible encourages us to examine our lives in light of God's impending judgment. "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed" (Acts 17:30-31). We would be wise to heed this warning.

As you think about the justice of God, ask yourself this question: am I living in a way that is just and fair? If you are not sure, take a moment to examine your heart. Are you always looking out for yourself, or are you also looking out for the good of others? Are you quick to judge others, or are you quick to forgive? Are you always trying to get ahead, or are you content with what you have?

The way we answer these questions will reveal something about the condition of our hearts. The following Bible verses will help to quicken our hearts and renew our minds as we remember that God is just, and He desires for us to reflect His justice in the world.

God is Just​

Deuteronomy 32:4​

The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
source: https://www.biblelyfe.com/blog/god-is-just-verses

If you aren't saved God doesn't hate you,your aren't his enemy ?

Look the arminist are literally saying this.God adores you.

What about Hitler?
A sign in church .Jesus saw you and fell in love ?

I was a thief .a fornicator and adulterer ,I also lied and disrespectful to my father .

All listed made me worthy if death

 

[atpollard]

Their theology blasphemes God because it is a Christ-less Gospel that promotes the false idea that people are saved apart from believing in Jesus Christ.

False.
Faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Heidelberg Catechism:

Q1. What is your only comfort in life and in death?

A. That I am not my own,1
but belong—
body and soul,
in life and in death—2
to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ.3

He has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood,4
and has set me free from the tyranny of the devil.5
He also watches over me in such a way6
that not a hair can fall from my head
without the will of my Father in heaven;7
in fact, all things must work together for my salvation.8

Because I belong to him,
Christ, by his Holy Spirit,
assures me of eternal life9
and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready
from now on to live for him.10

Q2. What must you know to
live and die in the joy of this comfort?

A. Three things:
first, how great my sin and misery are;1
second, how I am set free from all my sins and misery;2
third, how I am to thank God for such deliverance.3

Q3. How do you come to know your misery?

A. The law of God tells me.1

Q4. What does God’s law require of us?


A. Christ teaches us this in summary in Matthew 22:37-40:
“‘You shall love the Lord your God
with all your heart,
and with all your soul,
and with all your mind.’1
This is the greatest and first commandment.
“And a second is like it:
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’2
“On these two commandments hang
all the law and the prophets.”

Q5. Can you live up to all this perfectly?

A. No.1
I have a natural tendency
to hate God and my neighbor.2

(follow the link to read on ... there is a word limit for this post)

 

[Free]

The above is reformed teaching.
It is NOT Christian teaching that is biblical.

I don't care if it's reformed teaching or not. I'm making a logical argument: if God chooses who will be saved, then he is just in so choosing, even if we can't understand why, because he is perfectly just. Everything he says and does is, by definition, just, even if with think it is not.

Yes. I'm saying that Calvinism is not biblical and it could be proven time and again.

Which part(s)? That there is one, triune God who created the heavens and the earth? That man rebelled and was in need of a saviour? That Jesus was the God-man who died as a propitiatory sacrifice to atone for our sins so that we could be reconciled to God? That those who are to be saved need to hear and believe the gospel? That justification is by the grace of God alone, on the basis of Christ's work alone, through faith alone? That Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead?

Or, is the only sticking point when it comes to understanding election and predestination?

Reformed theology is simply trying to make sense of all that the Bible teaches, just like Arminianism or any other position out there. Same God, same gospel.

I also have other things needing my attention.
But if I'm going to discuss Catholicism, I like to know about it.
If I'm going to discuss Calvinism, I like to know about it.

But that is why I'm not really discussing it as such but rather dealing with some of the reasoning behind arguments.

 

[atpollard]

Denominations are not of God.

Nor are they the "unpardonable sin".
Wondering brought up "every other denomination" rejecting Calvinism, so I simply listed denominations that openly affirm the Doctrines of Grace and Reformed Theology.

 

[atpollard]

Faith comes first and then salvation.

... and BOTH are the gift of God. The God who "... will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." [NKJV]

 

[electedbyHim]

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

• if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

If frames the passage in a condition.

The condition is …

• you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead

The result of meeting the condition is…

• you will be saved.

Paul then asks these questions in the contextual theme of verses
9 and 10.


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14


How can a person believe in Jesus and be saved by Him, if they have never heard of Him?


Your ”Christ-less” Gospel is not from God.






JLB

Bad Theology.

You are not understanding what Brightframe52 is saying.

 

[atpollard]

@atpollard was doing pretty good at the beginning, but I see he gave up too.

I moved on to Unconditional Election in a new topic (as you suggested).
(After 100 posts it is unlikely that anything new remains unsaid on a subject.)

 

[brightfame52]

Bad Theology.

You are not understanding what Brightframe52 is saying.

The poster is making the evidences of Salvation, conditions a person must do to get saved, which is works. The fact of the matter is those who are confessing Jesus Christ and believing in their heart [ the new heart] are evidencing they are in a spiritually alive saved state.

 

[electedbyHim]

What good is stating verses for persons that don't understand them?
But, apparently, you don't read all my posts.

I know persons that have NEVER READ the bible,
and know God better than some on this thread.
Most on this thread.

I know persons that have NEVER READ the bible,
and know God better than some on this thread.
Most on this thread.

Are you suggesting they have direct revelation from God of Himself?

 

[electedbyHim]

The poster is making the evidences of Salvation, conditions a person must do to get saved, which is works. The fact of the matter is those who are confessing Jesus Christ and believing in their heart [ the new heart] are evidencing they are in a spiritually alive saved state.

Agreed.