A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[brightfame52]

Although what I will say does not contradict "Total Depravity", it does your exegesis of the scripture. The context is about man's "understanding", they have become "filthy" in reasoning, "none righteous", "all gone out of the way"....

"None seeketh [the true] God".

We know from history man is very religious, until modern times Atheism almost unknown. To say man doesn't seek God is contradicted by the facts of history, AND both the Psalmist and Paul knew that very well.

Man in his dark evil understanding, flees from the light of the True God, inventing a god more to his liking.

AND It is said, "There are no Atheists in a foxhole." They begin seeking god very fervently at that time, zealously. But, in conformity with Total Depravity, they are not seeking the God of the Bible.


Ps 14:2-3

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written[scripture], There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Huh ?? I dont know what you talking about.

 

[Hopeful]

We believe that the Scriptures teach man is totally depraved: that man by nature will not seek after God.

Ps 14:2-3

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written[scripture], There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

We have the sacred testimony from both testaments, so its a full witness

So man by nature doesnt ever seek after God, because he is filthy and cannot, there is no difference in will not and cannot in Gods economy, this is a spiritual deficiency

Please keep in mind that God inspired the writing of the Scriptures which are the revealed word of God. 2 Tim 3:16

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I wonder what John the Baptist and his parents, or any of the faithful apostles, would think of that generalization.

 

[Hopeful]

I wonder what John the Baptist and his parents, or any of the faithful apostles, would think of that generalization.

Or Noah, or Abraham, or Elijah, or Samuel?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Huh ?? I dont know what you talking about.

You don't know because you only read scripture while "Proof-texting". That failure to understand the text in its context bleeds over when people try to dialogue with you. You don't take the time to understand their point, you are too busy gathering prooftexts to throw at them.

"Wondering" kept asking you questions till she gave up. Just asking you to explain the logic of your position. You couldn't hear her, "Elvis already left the building looking for more prooftexts".

I tried to share with you a simple point. Although the wording is "men don't seek God", the surrounding context supplies the missing premise: "they don't seek [the true] God" because their understanding is corrupt, dark.

History PROVES men seek god all the time, all the religions that exist in history are the evidence.

Paul even found an idol "to an Unknown God", proving they feared not finding all the gods. Can't say "they don't seek god", they certainly did. But their dark minds couldn't seek the true God, so Paul had to enlighten them:

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious;
23 "for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you:
(Acts 17:22-23 NKJ)

If you weren't proof-texting, then you would understand neither Paul or the Psalmist was saying men don't seek God, both are saying the corrupt and evil dark minds of man don't seek the God of light, they look for substitute gods.

Now read the Bible texts again, I bold faced the words that supply the missing premise: They are filthy minded, have gone aside to find a filthy god they prefer, a god that would excuse their filth and unrighteousness. They have gone out of the way of truth, to believe in lies.

They turn away from the True God because He is Light:

19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (Jn. 3:19-20 NKJ)

Read carefully what the Psalmist and Paul are saying and you will agree, God's complaint is men seek false gods, not the true God:

Ps 14:2-3
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written[scripture], There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The likelihood you read and understood this reply is zero. But I'm sure Wondering got a laugh from it.

 

[brightfame52]

You don't know because you only read scripture while "Proof-texting". That failure to understand the text in its context bleeds over when people try to dialogue with you. You don't take the time to understand their point, you are too busy gathering prooftexts to throw at them.

"Wondering" kept asking you questions till she gave up. Just asking you to explain the logic of your position. You couldn't hear her, "Elvis already left the building looking for more prooftexts".

I tried to share with you a simple point. Although the wording is "men don't seek God", the surrounding context supplies the missing premise: "they don't seek [the true] God" because their understanding is corrupt, dark.

History PROVES men seek god all the time, all the religions that exist in history are the evidence.

Paul even found an idol "to an Unknown God", proving they feared not finding all the gods. Can't say "they don't seek god", they certainly did. But their dark minds couldn't seek the true God, so Paul had to enlighten them:

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious;
23 "for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you:
(Acts 17:22-23 NKJ)

If you weren't proof-texting, then you would understand neither Paul or the Psalmist was saying men don't seek God, both are saying the corrupt and evil dark minds of man don't seek the God of light, they look for substitute gods.

Now read the Bible texts again, I bold faced the words that supply the missing premise: They are filthy minded, have gone aside to find a filthy god they prefer, a god that would excuse their filth and unrighteousness. They have gone out of the way of truth, to believe in lies.

They turn away from the True God because He is Light:

19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (Jn. 3:19-20 NKJ)

Read carefully what the Psalmist and Paul are saying and you will agree, God's complaint is men seek false gods, not the true God:

Ps 14:2-3
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written[scripture], There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The likelihood you read and understood this reply is zero. But I'm sure Wondering got a laugh from it.

You still sound confused and confusing, its simple, by nature man is totally depraved, helpless, tis the testimony of scripture via OT Ps 14 and NT Rom 3 Man by nature in their fallen condition dont seek after, desire the True God, false gods yes, the One and Only True God, NO and they cant !

 

[Alfred Persson]

You still sound confused and confusing, its simple, by nature man is totally depraved, helpless, tis the testimony of scripture via OT Ps 14 and NT Rom 3 Man by nature in their fallen condition dont seek after, desire the True God, false gods yes, the One and Only True God, NO and they cant !

Glad you could squeak out an agreement, sort of. At least that pierced the fog.

 

[Alfred Persson]

First we need to accurately define some terms:

ORIGINAL SIN: It is not, as some think, talking about the very first sin that Adam and Eve committed. The Church has historically talked about “the doctrine of Original Sin” and meant the consequences to the human race because of that first sin. In short, something happened at that first sin that has impacted the entire human race … we “fell” and our nature is now influenced by the power of evil. The issue of Original Sin is that we are not sinners because we sin, but rather, we sin because we are by nature sinners!


So now let’s discuss the “T” of TULIP: TOTAL DEPRAVITY

WHAT TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS NOT:
Total Depravity is not UTTER DEPRAVITY. Every human being is not as bad as they could possibly be. (Even Adolph Hitler probably loved his mother, so there is room for everyone to be more evil than they are.)

WHAT TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS:
Total Depravity means that the fall affects the whole man. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our BODIES - so we become sick and we die. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our MINDS - so our thoughts become what the Bible calls “darkened” and “weakened”. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our WILL - according to Paul we are now in bondage and enslaved to the evil desires of our hearts. The fallenness that corrupts our nature, affects our SPIRIT - we are no longer born with that innate spiritual connection to God that Adam once had and which only Christ can restore. So the fall has corrupted our bodies, our minds, our will and our spirit … the WHOLE MAN is corrupted by the power of sin.

R.C. Sproul likes to call it “Radical Corruption” because the Latin origin for “radical” is the word “root”. It designates that the problem with man and sin is not something applied to the surface of us, but rather it is something that comes from the very core of us. The REFORMED view of fallen man is that our “sin problem” is something that originates in the very “core” or “heart” or “innermost” part of us. It is not shallow or superficial. It is not easily removed.

Thus no small adjustments from the outside can change a man. Salvation requires radical transformation beginning at the core of who we are. God must transform our heart before anything else is possible.

That is the essence of the Reformed doctrine of TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

(After I get some sleep, we can discuss whether or not Scripture actually teaches any of this … or if people just made it up out of whole cloth. For now, we at least have an understanding of what the term actually means.)

Total Depravity is sound doctrine, scripture certainly reveals it.

You say "It is not shallow or superficial. It is not easily removed."

Just now a dream revealed to me how true that is, to my waking horror and dismay, and cry to God for mercy.

After the shock---love for God grew stronger---He's on the case.

By the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, He will purge the evil, leaving us washed and clean:

4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning,
5 then the LORD will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a covering.
6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain. (Isa. 4:4-6 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Total Depravity is sound doctrine, scripture certainly reveals it.

You say "It is not shallow or superficial. It is not easily removed."

Just now a dream revealed to me how true that is, to my waking horror and dismay, and cry to God for mercy.

After the shock---love for God grew stronger---He's on the case.

By the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, He will purge the evil, leaving us washed and clean:

4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning,
5 then the LORD will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a covering.
6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain. (Isa. 4:4-6 NKJ)

I should be clear. I am a Cessationist, the dream wasn't from God. I am not a prophet, I believe in sola scriptura.

It was a normal dream produced by my Depraved Nature. It was a robbery, my partner was going to kill the victim and I realized I wanted to do the deed...

That's when I screamed "NO" and woke up. But, that was me in the dream. To my horror and utter shame, I realized that evil was potentially still in me. Clearly, Paul knew this reality when he made the case for Total Depravity.

But I don't want anyone thinking God caused the dream. He did not. But the Holy Spirit did use this to remind me of the scripture, and how its always 100% true.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

 

[brightfame52]

Man is by nature totally depraved because by nature he is totally dead in sin, constituting him only evil,

Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

This is how we are by nature Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We are by nature only worthy of Gods Wrath, this never changes while dead in sin.

All we do when it comes to a right relationship with God is only evil continually, even are most sincere religious and moral efforts. Gen 6:5

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Jn 3:19

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The word for dead in Eph 2:1,5 is the greek word nekros:
a. (spiritually dead, i. e.) "destitute of a life that recognizes and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins; inactive as respects doing right":