A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[atpollard]

Those WHO WISH TO BE SAVED,
are saved by the grace of God.

John 3:19-20 [NASB]
"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

Romans 3:10-12 [NASB]
as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 [NASB]
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

Who are these mythical people that "wish to be saved"?

 

[brightfame52]

You know Brightfame52
I gave you a nice list of verses.
You're answering me with more verses.

Why don't you reply to mine first?
Why play verse ping pong instead of having a serious conversation?

Here they are again.... Please reply as to your understanding of each verse.
As I've done MANY times.
Thanks.

*******************************************************************************

Jesus came to let us know God's ways.
Jesus came to let us know God's thoughts.

Some of them anyway - the ones necessary to know so WE COULD GET SAVED.

Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

WHERE does it state that those that confess ARE ALREADY SAVED?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
This tells us HOW we are saved.
And even gives the ORDO SALUTIS.
Grace saves us.
Through faith.
Faith comes first and then salvation.


Acts 2:38
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”


Did Paul say to sit around and wait for God to CALL the jailor?
No. He told him to BELIEVE IN THE LORD and he would be saved.

It's very clear that the jailor was not already saved but wanted to know HOW TO BECOME SAVED.

Again, we have the ORDO SALUTIS:
BELIEVE IN JESUS
BE SAVED


Matthew 7:21 Jesus Said
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. "


Do we want to believe Jesus?
Not everyone will enter the Kingdom of Heave,
BUT THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF THE FATHER.

How do you explain that one away?

BTW, yeah, no one ever answers to my verses,
it would be nice if everyone did.
I know it's not easy.

Jesus didnt come to show people how to get saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 3:19-20 [NASB]
"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

Everyone who does evil hates the light.
The men and women who hate the light do not come into it because their sins will be exposed.

John 3:21
21But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."
But those WHO DO WHAT IS RIGHT....
are not afraid of the light.
They are doing what God wants.

THESE are the mythical persons who wish to be saved.

Jesus stands at the door and knocks.
Revelation 3:20
Those that reply are the mythical persons that wish to be saved.

Romans 3:10-12 [NASB]
as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Good.
We're all born sinful.
But where in the above verses does it state that we are unable to become saved UNLESS
it is §God through predestination that does this?

Ephesians 2:8-9 explains how we get saved. NLT
8God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

When we believed...
God saved us...
By His grace...
And the above is a gift: Faith and Salvation.

Nowhere in Romans 3:10 does it state what you think it does.
If so, there is conflict in God's Word because I can post many verses that state we are to seek God.
God does not command us to do something we are unable to do.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 [NASB]
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

Who are these mythical people that "wish to be saved"?

Of course natural man does not accept the things of God.
Once we are born again, THEN we understand the spirit of God.

I honestly don't understand why this is such a favored verse of the reformed.
What do you think it's stating?
Does it state that God predestines those that come to believe?
I don't see it in that verse(s).

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus didnt come to show people how to get saved.

Still no answer to my verses.
It's tough isn't it.
The time I've spent answering verses, and I'm told I don't use scripture.
Funny stuff.

What did Jesus come here for then?
To die for a bunch of persons that God was going to choose anyway?

Why was Jesus' death necessary in that case?

 

[brightfame52]

Still no answer to my verses.
It's tough isn't it.
The time I've spent answering verses, and I'm told I don't use scripture.
Funny stuff.

What did Jesus come here for then?
To die for a bunch of persons that God was going to choose anyway?

Why was Jesus' death necessary in that case?

No sense in chasing your questions, Jesus came to save sinners, not to show people how to get saved, thats made up rubbish.

 

[electedbyHim]

Of course.
Didn't you ever read Romans 1:19....?

Romans 1:19-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

or

Romans 2:6-11
6He will judge everyone according to what they have done.
7He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.
8But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.
9There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on doing what is evil—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.a
10But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
11For God does not show favoritism.
Romans 9:12-16
12When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
13For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.
14Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
15They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
16And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.

I meant does God talk to them about Himself.

That these people, who never read a bible, know more about God then those who study it daily.

How is that possible?

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't care if it's reformed teaching or not. I'm making a logical argument: if God chooses who will be saved, then he is just in so choosing, even if we can't understand why, because he is perfectly just. Everything he says and does is, by definition, just, even if with think it is not.


Which part(s)? That there is one, triune God who created the heavens and the earth? That man rebelled and was in need of a saviour? That Jesus was the God-man who died as a propitiatory sacrifice to atone for our sins so that we could be reconciled to God? That those who are to be saved need to hear and believe the gospel? That justification is by the grace of God alone, on the basis of Christ's work alone, through faith alone? That Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead?

Or, is the only sticking point when it comes to understanding election and predestination?

Reformed theology is simply trying to make sense of all that the Bible teaches, just like Arminianism or any other position out there. Same God, same gospel.


But that is why I'm not really discussing it as such but rather dealing with some of the reasoning behind arguments.

That's a pretty BIG sticking point Free.

Total Depravity - the inability to seek God - this is not biblical.
No Free Will - this is not biblical.
Perseverance of the Saints (OSAS) - this is not biblical
Limited Atonement - this is not biblical. Even some reformed theologians can't swallow this one.
Unconditional Election - this is not biblical. Our election is CONDITIONAL.

I think there might be more...

 

[GodsGrace]

No sense in chasing your questions, Jesus came to save sinners, not to show people how to get saved, thats made up rubbish.

"Jesus showing persons HOW TO GET SAVED...
is made-up rubbish."

AND THERE YOU HAVE IT LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
The reformed theology at work.

Of course, in a sense Brightfame is right.
Jesus is of NO NECESSITY in reformed theology.
Why would He be when it's GOD doing the choosing, based on nothing at all.

Free
Interesting stuff.

 

[GodsGrace]

No sense in chasing your questions, Jesus came to save sinners, not to show people how to get saved, thats made up rubbish.

My questions are tough Brightfame.
Haven't been studying calvinism for over 10 years for nothing.
I know you can't really answer them...
But I like to give you the chance,
Seeing as how some on this thread accuse me of not using scripture.
Funny stuff.

 

[GodsGrace]

I meant does God talk to them about Himself.

That these people, who never read a bible, know more about God then those who study it daily.

How is that possible?

Did I say they know more?
Maybe I meant that they know more about HIS NATURE than some persons on this thread.
Having knowledge of theology does not get one saved.

You'd have to show me the post.
That's why there's a REPLY button on the bottom of the page.
Thanks.

 

[electedbyHim]

Did I say they know more?
Maybe I meant that they know more about HIS NATURE than some persons on this thread.
Having knowledge of theology does not get one saved.

You'd have to show me the post.
That's why there's a REPLY button on the bottom of the page.
Thanks.

Who mentioned anything about salvation?

This is useless, you are answering so many different posts from members, that you are confused.

I do find it interesting that you demand Biblical answers to the same questions you have asked in different threads and still refuse the answer from any poster.

Your pride blinds you.

Grace and peace to you

 

[brightfame52]

"Jesus showing persons HOW TO GET SAVED...
is made-up rubbish."

AND THERE YOU HAVE IT LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
The reformed theology at work.

Of course, in a sense Brightfame is right.
Jesus is of NO NECESSITY in reformed theology.
Why would He be when it's GOD doing the choosing, based on nothing at all.

Free
Interesting stuff.

Yes its rubbish, dung. Christ came to save sinners Himself, He is the Saviour 1 Tim 1:15

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 

[brightfame52]

My questions are tough Brightfame.
Haven't been studying calvinism for over 10 years for nothing.
I know you can't really answer them...
But I like to give you the chance,
Seeing as how some on this thread accuse me of not using scripture.
Funny stuff.

Man is Dead to God by nature. No Spiritual activity without Spiritual life, just like no physical activity without first having physical life.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

John 3:19-20 [NASB]
"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

Paul isn't saying anyone who loves darkness can never repent.

Romans 3:10-12 [NASB]
as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Paul is speaking of Jews by law and gentiles by conscience. Paul isn't saying people who aren't seeking God can never seek him.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 [NASB]
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

Paul isn't saying no one can change his mind about what he thinks is foolish.

Who are these mythical people that "wish to be saved"?

How about people who heard John the baptist?

 

[JLB]

Man made ?
So people won't decide In your church to simply avoid your class on eschatology?

Jason, what are you talking about?

Denominations, such as Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God, Pentecostal, Church of God, Church of Christ, Messianic Judaism…are not biblical.


Why is that so hard for you to understand?


Christian means follower of Jesus Christ; adherence to His Gospel, His doctrine and His commandments.


Following men and their traditions and teachings is not what following Jesus is about.


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13




JLB

 

[atpollard]

John 3:21
21But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."
But those WHO DO WHAT IS RIGHT....
are not afraid of the light.
They are doing what God wants

John 3:21

• [NASB] "But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God."
• [NKJV] "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
• [NLT] But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants [footnote: Or ‘can see God at work in what he is doing’.]."
• [ESV] But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

All different ways of saying: “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” [Ephesians 2:10 NKJV]

Back to Romans 3:10-12 … nobody wants … and John 6:44 … unless the Father draws.

 

[atpollard]

Paul isn't saying anyone who loves darkness can never repent.

Paul is speaking of Jews by law and gentiles by conscience. Paul isn't saying people who aren't seeking God can never seek him.

Paul isn't saying no one can change his mind about what he thinks is foolish.

How about people who heard John the baptist?

Verses vs. “taint’ so”.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 3:21

• [NASB] "But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God."
• [NKJV] "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
• [NLT] But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants [footnote: Or ‘can see God at work in what he is doing’.]."
• [ESV] But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

All different ways of saying: “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” [Ephesians 2:10 NKJV]

Back to Romans 3:10-12 … nobody wants … and John 6:44 … unless the Father draws.

Right.
God prepared works for us beforehand.
We are His hands and feet on earth.
We agree on this.

 

[electedbyHim]

Everyone who does evil hates the light.
The men and women who hate the light do not come into it because their sins will be exposed.

John 3:21
21But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."
But those WHO DO WHAT IS RIGHT....
are not afraid of the light.
They are doing what God wants.

THESE are the mythical persons who wish to be saved.

Jesus stands at the door and knocks.
Revelation 3:20
Those that reply are the mythical persons that wish to be saved.




Good.
We're all born sinful.
But where in the above verses does it state that we are unable to become saved UNLESS
it is §God through predestination that does this?

Ephesians 2:8-9 explains how we get saved. NLT
8God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

When we believed...
God saved us...
By His grace...
And the above is a gift: Faith and Salvation.

Nowhere in Romans 3:10 does it state what you think it does.
If so, there is conflict in God's Word because I can post many verses that state we are to seek God.
God does not command us to do something we are unable to do.


Of course natural man does not accept the things of God.
Once we are born again, THEN we understand the spirit of God.

I honestly don't understand why this is such a favored verse of the reformed.
What do you think it's stating?
Does it state that God predestines those that come to believe?
I don't see it in that verse(s).

THESE are the mythical persons who wish to be saved.

Mythical? Really

Your opinion of John 3:21 is nonsense.

This is bad Theology.

 

[jasonc]

John 3:19-20 [NASB]
"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

Romans 3:10-12 [NASB]
as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 [NASB]
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

Who are these mythical people that "wish to be saved"?

I'm waiting for the one true God thing but not quite a Christian person to be found .

Jason, what are you talking about?

Denominations, such as Baptist, Methodist, Assembly of God, Pentecostal, Church of God, Church of Christ, Messianic Judaism…are not biblical.


Why is that so hard for you to understand?


Christian means follower of Jesus Christ; adherence to His Gospel, His doctrine and His commandments.


Following men and their traditions and teachings is not what following Jesus is about.


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13




JLB

JLB so you have no idea of the things you post

If You alone are right and no agreed with you then they are anethemia?

In your church there's no disagreement everyone believes the pastor because he alone or she is right? They all either keep quiet on it or lie?

That's my point .

Has Jesus returned ?
No so you nor I can say eschatology I'd this way and people divide over that .we can't see or know how God worked for save outside if what is told.

The Cherokee or Aztec who died without the gospel are either judged and damned or are in heaven .

The Aztec have some interesting beliefs .human sacrifice is part of it .the Cherokee have a great spirit but not a personable diety.these in My case never heard any gospel.

If they did it didn't stay .

That's in part the topic.you say we should not be divided .are you sure you have it all figured out ?

No grey areas at all the Bible says it prophetically and it's gonna happen exactly as you see it ?

Reading past commentaries that didn't have the internet and where these had to learn it the old way.they didn't know on that .

Nothing about any post .mid or pre trib rapture at all .