A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[electedbyHim]

Thanks E.
I'll go through it tomorrow morning and report back.

There is another acronym for Arminianism, but I don't recall it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good night all.
At least no one yelled at me this evening,
or called me a liar.
Pretty terrible stuff coming from other Christians.

 

[brightfame52]

But where does it say that?
I get accused of not using scripture.
Could YOU please use scripture?

I can recommend some sources on Calvinism, Tulip full of scripture references

 

[brightfame52]

I mean,
HOW could you say NO to what is clearly written in the NT (or the OT)??

I havent done that.

 

[Fastfredy0]

or all persons without DISTINCTION (some from every tribe, language, people and nation .

Ah, someone is aware of the issue with the word ALL

 

[Fastfredy0]

You can ignore me all you want. I notice all your posts seek to attack the doctrines of grace.

Well, she apparently is an R.C. and if consistent to their beliefs she relies on her works to save her ...and the works of others like Mary and priests to forgive sin.

 

[Fastfredy0]

At least no one yelled at me this evening,
or called me a liar.

What do you call someone that says they backup their claims about the attributes of reformed theology with quotes from thr WCF of john Calvin but then refuses to do it?

What do you call someone that says reformed theology says God is unjust and unmeriful?

Hmmmm

 

[Iconoclast]

I listed 5 verses that show God's grace can be resisted.

No one says God's grace cannot be resisted

If it can be resisted then the I in TULIP is incorrect.

No, not at all. This demonstrates why every one says you do not know what you are posting about. All kinds of people resist and rebel against God's word. Irresistable grace as every Calvinist knows is speaking only of elect sheep who are effectually drawn to Jesus. This is not resisted at all.
No one can claim to study "Calvinism" or the 1644 or 1689 confessions of faith and make such a foolish claim. Forget about 10 yrs of supposed study, here in 10 minutes we can see the clear teaching, showing of the "I" is true-

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling​

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3

Instead of posting your opinion, why don't you please respond to my verses as I have done?

Many have answered these verses you offer, over and over.

Man is spiritually dead.
But WHERE in the NT does it state that man is SO DEAD that He cannot respond to God?

In eph2 man is described as a spiritual corpse, that is where. A corpse cannot do anything .

All the following verses state that man IS ABLE to respond to God.

Your new friend Leighton says such false ideas...response-able.
Not so in the bible.

Here they are again:

John 7:17
.Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God

Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!


Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,


Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.


Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

None of these verses say that.

 

[electedbyHim]

No one says God's grace cannot be resisted

No, not at all. This demonstrates why every one says you do not know what you are posting about. All kinds of people resist and rebel against God's word. Irresistable grace as every Calvinist knows is speaking only of elect sheep who are effectually drawn to Jesus. This is not resisted at all.
No one can claim to study "Calvinism" or the 1644 or 1689 confessions of faith and make such a foolish claim. Forget about 10 yrs of supposed study, here in 10 minutes we can see the clear teaching, showing of the "I" is true-

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling​

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3

Many have answered these verses you offer, over and over.

In eph2 man is described as a spiritual corpse, that is where. A corpse cannot do anything .

Your new friend Leighton says such false ideas...response-able.
Not so in the bible.

None of these verses say that.

Excellent.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well, Icon, I'm not a kindergartener, You're not on IGNORE.
I just can't spend time speaking to you.
Sorry, I think you're a nice person.

I actually believe in grace MORE than you seem to,

I know you think that.

but I don't care to discuss it with you.

W...I like you also. Most posting here seem to like you. If anything, that is why we will still offer to you things you do not see yet. It is fine if you do not want to discuss it with me. believe it or not, I have that very effect on people for several reasons.
I will use your posts attacking the doctrines of grace as a learning tool for others who want to learn.
I mean no unnecessary agita for you.

 

[Iconoclast]

Apparently then, there's a problem here.
A conflict of interest, if you will.

Not really

You can't put this back on me.

watch me,lol

YOU said the word DRAW means there's always success.
So, again, why aren't ALL MEN saved, as Jesus state?

All those Jesus spoke about are saved 100&. The problem is you are skipping over the key verses here, that instruct those who understand;
Jn.6"
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Every single one of these GIVEN PERSONS will be saved. Not one will be lost.
Jn 6 is describing what is known as the Covenant of Redemption.
If a person denies the Covenant exists, they are not going to solve the puzzle.

And as John 6:44 states, as per you.

Yes..No man can come, unless the Father draws them. So much for your claim, and our misguided friend Leighton.

It states that ALL MEN will be drawn.
Did Jesus make a mistake?

John 12:32 Jesus said:
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

It means all men scattered worldwide ,not the Jew only.
Those in other parts of the world who were given will come. It is not every single person ever born.
This is not the same as jn6.

It does NOT say ALL MY MEN,
or
ALL MY SHEEP
or
ALL CHILDREN OF GOD

It states ALL MEN will be drawn to Jesus.

It is not possible that it means that....Millions have lived and died and never heard of Jesus.

Did the translators know what they were doing or not?

They did, you do not, sorry but true.

Did Jesus know what He was saying or not?

He did indeed, you do not.

Maybe we shouldn't trust the bible at all??

Calvinists can trust it all because we believe exactly what it says.

 

[electedbyHim]

Not really

watch me,lol

All those Jesus spoke about are saved 100&. The problem is you are skipping over the key verses here, that instruct those who understand;
Jn.6"
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Every single one of these GIVEN PERSONS will be saved. Not one will be lost.
Jn 6 is describing what is known as the Covenant of Redemption.
If a person denies the Covenant exists, they are not going to solve the puzzle.

Yes..No man can come, unless the Father draws them. So much for your claim, and our misguided friend Leighton.

It means all men scattered worldwide ,not the Jew only.
Those in other parts of the world who were given will come. It is not every single person ever born.
This is not the same as jn6.


It is not possible that it means that....Millions have lived and died and never heard of Jesus.

They did, you do not, sorry but true.

He did indeed, you do not.

Calvinists can trust it all because we believe exactly what it says.

This.

 

[Iconoclast]

Oh yeah.
Post Spurgeon as support for your reformed ideas.
That'll certainly convince us non-cals (as you call us).

Spurgeon was read worldwide. Not so your posts, or LF,

 

[Iconoclast]

What do you call someone that says they backup their claims about the attributes of reformed theology with quotes from thr WCF of john Calvin but then refuses to do it?

What do you call someone that says reformed theology says God is unjust and unmeriful?

Hmmmm

She might answer you tommorow.

 

[electedbyHim]

Spurgeon was read worldwide. Not so your posts, or LF,

Truth.

 

[JLB]

So Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, etc.. is a sect and cult?

They are denominations, or divisions, which are sections, or sects within the Church.

Sect and cult are synonyms of the word denomination.

Is there a scripture that refer to the Lutherans, or Baptists or Pentecostals?


The Church is to be united in doctrine, in our common love of the truth, love for God and each other, having no schisms.


On the Day of judgement our Judge will make this abundantly clear.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

JLB

 

[electedbyHim]

They are denominations, or divisions, which are sections, or sects within the Church.

Sect and cult are synonyms of the word denomination.

Is there a scripture that refer to the Lutherans, or Baptists or Pentecostals?


The Church is to be united in doctrine, in our common love of the truth, love for God and each other, having no schisms.


On the Day of judgement our Judge will make this abundantly clear.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

JLB

What denomination do you identify with?

 

[JLB]

No, not non-cals, Arminians.

Of course I knew you would object to any answer given you.

Why is it so important for you, that you have a part in salvation. I just do not get it, besides pride of course.

Why cant the Lord have all the glory? Why does sinful man have to get glory in salvation as well?

Please refer to the words of scripture where it refers to Arminians or Calvinists?

Labeling God's people is to divide them into sections.

Doing this only exposes how carnal you are.


And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
1 Corinthians 3:1-4



JLB

 

[JLB]

What denomination do you identify with?

Follower of Christ; Christian

 

[atpollard]

It does NOT say ALL MY MEN,
or
ALL MY SHEEP
or
ALL CHILDREN OF GOD

It states ALL MEN will be drawn to Jesus.

Are you advocating that women cannot be saved?
If not, then “all men” must not mean literally “all men”, must it?

I told you TWICE what I thought.
Why do you avoid my questions about what YOU think it means?
Did Jesus draw every Aztec without exception that never even heard the gospel?
Do you really believe that is what Jesus meant?
Does John 6:44 not also promise that all that are drawn will be saved?