A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[electedbyHim]

Denomination

So Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, etc.. is a sect and cult?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Sinners are incapable of repentance towards God, God must give repentance Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
God must give us repentance to acknowledge the Truth 2 Tim 2:25-26
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Read the whole chapter. Peter is saying God granted the request of the repentant. What reason did Peter give?

 

[brightfame52]

Read the whole chapter. Peter is saying God granted the request of the repentant. What reason did Peter give?

The only way one can repent is if when Jesus saves them He gives them repentance. Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

See that ? Jesus as Saviour gives repentance to His Elect ! Now if Jesus doesnt give it, you aint repenting ! If you repent on your own, then you are saying you are your own saviour !

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The only way one can repent is if when Jesus saves them He gives them repentance. Acts 5:31

You're ignoring who was granted repentance in Act.11, a passage you cited and now you're just hopping to Acts 5. So I ask again, who in Acts 11 does Peter say was granted repentance?

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

See that ? Jesus as Saviour gives repentance to His Elect ! Now if Jesus doesnt give it, you aint repenting ! If you repent on your own, then you are saying you are your own saviour !

And you're ignoring the gospel that brings sinners to repentance. What were the authorities upset about? They said,

ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Act.5:28

But while condemning Christ is sin for which those murderers are responsible, Peters' intent was to turn them toward the truth, which is that God will forgive the most horrendous sin ever committed, to those who desire forgiveness. The Spirit of our Lord comes after belief in him,

the Holy Ghost, whom Godhath given to them that obey him. Act.5:32

God gave them (gentiles) the like gift as he did unto us (Jews) who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ Act.11:17

It's amazing how everyone, saved or unsaved, knows that condemning an innocent man is wrong. So it isn't beyond anyones comprehension how "Jesus bore the sins of men."

You're belief that sinners are unable to understand such injustice simply isn't true, because no Calvanist would sit on any jury and condemn a man who committed no crime.

His great mercy was displayed by not knocking their heads off.

 

[brightfame52]

You're ignoring who was granted repentance in Act.11, a passage you cited and now you're just hopping to Acts 5. So I ask again, who in Acts 11 does Peter say was granted repentance?

And you're ignoring the gospel that brings sinners to repentance. What were the authorities upset about? They said,

ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Act.5:28

But while condemning Christ is sin for which those murderers are responsible, Peters' intent was to turn them toward the truth, which is that God will forgive the most horrendous sin ever committed, to those who desire forgiveness. The Spirit of our Lord comes after belief in him,

the Holy Ghost, whom Godhath given to them that obey him. Act.5:32

God gave them (gentiles) the like gift as he did unto us (Jews) who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ Act.11:17

It's amazing how everyone, saved or unsaved, knows that condemning an innocent man is wrong. So it isn't beyond anyones comprehension how "Jesus bore the sins of men."

You're belief that sinners are unable to understand such injustice simply isn't true, because no Calvanist would sit on any jury and condemn a man who committed no crime.

His great mercy was displayed by not knocking their heads off.

Christ as Saviour gives Repentance.

 

[GodsGrace]

Christ as Saviour gives Repentance.

You know BF,
I get accused of not replying to scripture, which is not true...
But YOU never reply to journeyman .
This is very apparent when reading through.
It must be because you're unable to?

PLEASE answer him.

 

[brightfame52]

You know BF,
I get accused of not replying to scripture, which is not true...
But YOU never reply to journeyman .
This is very apparent when reading through.
It must be because you're unable to?

PLEASE answer him.

I have replied to that poster plenty of times.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Because I biblically back up what I state.
Because I quote it from the Institutes and the WCF.

We're still waiting. Keep your word. Quote the Institutes and/or the WCF to explain the following statements you made:

1) You claimed R.C. Sproul believed in double predestination. I said prove it, you would not. I've read R.C. I know this is not true. Provide a quote.
2) You claimed John MacArthur said God is the author of sin. I was so sure that was not true that I found a place on the internet where MacArthur said the opposite. I asked her for a reference ... radio silence ...Provide a quote.
3) You claimed John Piper said God is the author of sin. I was so sure that was not true that I found a place on the internet where Piper said the opposite. I asked her for a reference ... radio silence ... Provide a quote.
4) You said you get her info about Reformed Theology from the WCF and John Calvin's Institutes and always gives quotes. You never gives quotes to my recollection. I specifically asked for them.... you won't give them yet you say you give them.
5) You said Reformed Theology teaches God is UNJUST, UNLOVING and UNMERCIFUL. Like almost NO Christian of earth believes that. You say you give quotes from the WCF and Calvin's Institutes, but when asked for a quote to support you won't do it showing you claim to give quotes is false

Still waiting for you to keep your word. Validate your statements.

Aside: Probability of being raptured greater than Wondering keeping her word and validating her statements.

 

[atpollard]

They context says what compelled people to come to him is what they "heard and learned" of our Father (vs.45).
People who heard and learned that God is loving, forgiving, etc. were drawn to Jesus, because he's loving, forgiving, etc.

Hearing that did not compel those Jesus told to "stop grumbling" in John 6:43 ... so there must be something MORE involved. "WHAT" that something is falls into the realm of human speculation unless you know of a verse where God says "Some people believe and other's don't because ..." (and I have overlooked that verse with all my readings).
[I suspect that information falls into "nunya" ... "none of your business. - GOD".]

 

[GodsGrace]

Hearing that did not compel those Jesus told to "stop grumbling" in John 6:43 ... so there must be something MORE involved. "WHAT" that something is falls into the realm of human speculation unless you know of a verse where God says "Some people believe and other's don't because ..." (and I have overlooked that verse with all my readings).
[I suspect that information falls into "nunya" ... "none of your business. - GOD".]

A,
Find a verse that states that ALL persons that are drawn come to God.
Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself.
John 12:32

So why isn't every man saved?

You stated that DRAW means that there is always an effect and that it means by force, like drawing in a net of fish.

Is God not able?

 

[GodsGrace]

I have replied to that poster plenty of times.

Not with scripture, but only with your opinion.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Christ as Saviour gives Repentance.

My friend, I agree with your statement here and if you carefully look at my last post, you will see how "Christ as Savior gives us repentance", but only in the sense that what happened to him was wrong.

The proof of what I'm telling you is within your own experiences in life. It's within the life of every human being, because before you and I came to know Christ, there is no way you or I w.ould knowingly condemn an innocent man. Now, show me a man who disagrees and I'll show you a man who can be bribed.

Our Father bears the sins of mankind every day. The epitomy of this was the sin inflicted on his Son. So, when we read about how the Apostles endured wrongful treatment from men, we can understand from Jesus' experience, that Christ is making us more like him...more like our Father. Ok?

 

[brightfame52]

A,
Find a verse that states that ALL persons that are drawn come to God.
Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself.
John 12:32

So why isn't every man saved?

You stated that DRAW means that there is always an effect and that it means by force, like drawing in a net of fish.

Is God not able?

Every and all men Christ draws are saved. When one is drawn they are regenerated.

 

[electedbyHim]

We're still waiting. Keep your word. Quote the Institutes and/or the WCF to explain the following statements you made:

1) You claimed R.C. Sproul believed in double predestination. I said prove it, you would not. I've read R.C. I know this is not true. Provide a quote.
2) You claimed John MacArthur said God is the author of sin. I was so sure that was not true that I found a place on the internet where MacArthur said the opposite. I asked her for a reference ... radio silence ...Provide a quote.
3) You claimed John Piper said God is the author of sin. I was so sure that was not true that I found a place on the internet where Piper said the opposite. I asked her for a reference ... radio silence ... Provide a quote.
4) You said you get her info about Reformed Theology from the WCF and John Calvin's Institutes and always gives quotes. You never gives quotes to my recollection. I specifically asked for them.... you won't give them yet you say you give them.
5) You said Reformed Theology teaches God is UNJUST, UNLOVING and UNMERCIFUL. Like almost NO Christian of earth believes that. You say you give quotes from the WCF and Calvin's Institutes, but when asked for a quote to support you won't do it showing you claim to give quotes is false

Still waiting for you to keep your word. Validate your statements.

Aside: Probability of being raptured greater than Wondering keeping her word and validating her statements.

Not one of those Pastors teach that God is the author of sin.

Blatant lies.

 

[atpollard]

A,
Find a verse that states that ALL persons that are drawn come to God.
Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself.
John 12:32

Success is included in the definition of DRAW ... a soldier DRAWS his sword (if the sword is still in the scabbard, then he did NOT draw it, did he?). So John 6:44 states that all persons drawn come to the Son.

With respect to John 12:32, is that all persons without EXCEPTION (including every ancient Aztec that never heard the Gospel) or all persons without DISTINCTION (some from every tribe, language, people and nation ... like Revelation 5:9)?

So why isn't every man saved?

You tell me! (and please provide scripture support).
I think that EVERY MAN that the Father draws, is saved (100% success).

You stated that DRAW means that there is always an effect and that it means by force, like drawing in a net of fish.

I only said that because that is what the Greek verb and the English verb used in John 6:44 actually mean.
A DRAW is only a DRAW if the object of the draw is DRAWN.

Is God not able?

You tell me!
I think that He is able. I believe that God successfully draws 100% of those that He attempts to draw.
"Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." [Romans 9:18 NKJV]

 

[GodsGrace]

Every and all men Christ draws are saved. When one is drawn they are regenerated.

But it states that ALL MEN will be drawn.
Did Jesus make a mistake?

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

It does NOT say ALL MY MEN,
or
ALL MY SHEEP
or
ALL CHILDREN OF GOD

It states ALL MEN will be drawn to Jesus.

Did the translators know what they were doing or not?
Maybe we shouldn't trust the bible at all??

 

[Iconoclast]

You're making a serious accusation.
I'm just going to ignore you.

You can ignore me all you want. I notice all your posts seek to attack the doctrines of grace. I do not need to talk about you personally, yet I will not expose the defective nature of your attack posts. Good thing you are ignoring me so You do not have to read the posts.

 

[GodsGrace]

Success is included in the definition of DRAW ... a soldier DRAWS his sword (if the sword is still in the scabbard, then he did NOT draw it, did he?). So John 6:44 states that all persons drawn come to the Son.

With respect to John 12:32, is that all persons without EXCEPTION (including every ancient Aztec that never heard the Gospel) or all persons without DISTINCTION (some from every tribe, language, people and nation ... like Revelation 5:9)?


You tell me! (and please provide scripture support).
I think that EVERY MAN that the Father draws, is saved (100% success).


I only said that because that is what the Greek verb and the English verb used in John 6:44 actually mean.
A DRAW is only a DRAW if the object of the draw is DRAWN.


You tell me!
I think that He is able. I believe that God successfully draws 100% of those that He attempts to draw.
"Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." [Romans 9:18 NKJV]

Apparently then, there's a problem here.
A conflict of interest, if you will.

You can't put this back on me.
YOU said the word DRAW means there's always success.
So, again, why aren't ALL MEN saved, as Jesus state?
And as John 6:44 states, as per you.


It states that ALL MEN will be drawn.
Did Jesus make a mistake?

John 12:32 Jesus said:
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

It does NOT say ALL MY MEN,
or
ALL MY SHEEP
or
ALL CHILDREN OF GOD

It states ALL MEN will be drawn to Jesus.

Did the translators know what they were doing or not?
Did Jesus know what He was saying or not?
Maybe we shouldn't trust the bible at all??

 

[GodsGrace]

You can ignore me all you want. I notice all your posts seek to attack the doctrines of grace. I do not need to talk about you personally, yet I will not expose the defective nature of your attack posts. Good thing you are ignoring me so You do not have to read the posts.

Well, Icon, I'm not a kindergartener, You're not on IGNORE.
I just can't spend time speaking to you.
Sorry, I think you're a nice person.

I actually believe in grace MORE than you seem to,
but I don't care to discuss it with you.

 

[electedbyHim]

John12:32-33. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The Pharisees said, “The world is gone after him;” but Jesus says, “No not while I am riding in state through the streets of Jerusalem; but when I am lifted up, and hung upon the cross, then shall it indeed be true, ‘I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.’” The crucified Christ of Calvary is the mighty magnet that is to attract multitudes of trembling, doubting, ruined sinners, who by grace shall be drawn unto him, and find eternal life in him.

C.H. Spurgeon

The all men are those who will be drawn to salvation from all types and classes of people. The phrase also stresses that all who are saved are saved by believing in the work of Christ on the cross. There is no access to God apart from the cross, because only through Christ’s death is sin satisfactorily atoned for (Matt. 20:28; Rom. 3:24–25; Heb. 9:12; 10:4–12; 1 Peter 1:18–19; 2:24; 3:18; 1 John 2:2; 4:10; Rev. 5:9) and divine forgiveness granted (Matt. 26:28; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:13–14).

John F. MacArthur Jr., John 12–21, MacArthur New Testament Commentary (Chicago, IL: Moody Publishers, 2008), 42.

Will draw all men unto myself (pantas helkusō pros emauton). Future active of helkuō, late form of helkō, to draw, to attract. Jesus had already used this verb of the Father’s drawing power (Joh_6:44). The magnetism of the Cross is now known of all men, however little they understand the mystery of the Cross. By “all men” (pantas) Jesus does not mean every individual man, for some, as Simeon said (Luk_2:34) are repelled by Christ, but this is the way that Greeks (Joh_12:22) can and will come to Christ, by the way of the Cross, the only way to the Father (Joh_14:6).

John Courson