A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[GodsGrace]

Did you watch that video?
That was TERRIFIC!!!!!

Yes, THAT is what Reformed believe.

Not all reformed are willing to admit it.
I don't really understand why.

Let's use the WCF

In Chapter 3.1 it states that from the beginning of time God had put into place everything that happens.
However, He orders everything so that He is not the creator of sin. An immediate contradiction.

3.2 states that God does NOT see the future to know what's going to happen, but He knows everything that can happen.
OK.

Chapter 5.1 God directs all things, from the biggest to the smallest. This is called God's Providence.
5.2 God is the first cause so that everything goes according to His plan.
However God also uses secondary causes.
Chapter 3:1b states that God is also the reason for other causes.
So, in effect, God is the first cause and the second cause.

5.4b states that God does not just give all other sins of people (5.4a) permission to happen, NO, it's a wise, limited permission, He governs even THESE events in various ways for His own holy reasons.

This is more concretely stated in John Calvin's Institutes, I could give the passages if you wish.
Basically it says the same as above.

So if God governs everything, and even sin, and is stated plainly in both the confessions and the Institutes, why would any reformed person deny this? I really can't get an answer from anyone else on this forum.

It does seem to me that some call themselves calvinist but are not aware, or do not wish to be aware of its true teachings.

A person can believe what they will by faith....
but they should at least be aware of the faith in which they believe.

 

[JLB]

Reformed means...setting things right.
Do you know all the times Jesus taught, your fathers said, but I say unto you...that is reformed teaching. men get it wrong, solid men reform the error.
You and others have many parts wrong,JLB, but we will help you 2

Again, you seem to have no answers for the truth the scriptures teach us.


The reason is you are inundated with the teachings of man;
man’s theology or the conclusions he has come to that fit into his perception of reality.

IOW the truth has not set you free from the lie, because you have not CONTINUED in His word, His doctrine, His message.


Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32


John says it again here in 2 John 9.
Notice the emphasis again on the word abide.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Either you obey the truth by the Spirit or you obey unrighteousness.


There is no in between.


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


Here are our two choices:

1. eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
2. but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

The choice is yours.





JLB

 

[atpollard]

Either you follow Christ or you follow man...

I can’t believe you went there.

John 6:44

• No one can come to Me [Total Inability of man to choose Christ]
• unless the Father who sent Me [Unconditional Election of God to 'show mercy on whom He will show mercy']
• draws him; [Irresistible Grace of God effectually draws man to salvation in the Son]
• and I will raise him up at the last day. [Preservation of Saints, by God, from Predestination through Glorification.]

… I follow Christ. Why don’t you?

 

[atpollard]

Why would God need "another" doctrine, other than the doctrine of Christ?

Ask the POPE and his … 1.3 BILLION followers.
The Reformers said we needed to abandon the RCC and get back to the BIBLE as our authority. That is why GOD raised up an army of Reformers to draw church people back to what SCRIPTURE actually teaches.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The first group thought that doing good was the path to salvation (as you are advocating when you reject the teaching of Paul) and learned too late that entrance to heaven is not based on "what you did" but on "WHO KNOWS YOU". The second group bore no fruit (or bore bad fruit), indicating that the HS was not in them and they were never His (Goats, Tares, Wolves and other miscreants within the church).

How is that for a "contrast/compare" between the two paragraphs?

The contrast is, in Mt.7, they said they did what the law says and were condemned.
In Mt. 25, they didn't do what the law says and were condemned.

for this is the law and the prophets. Mt.7:12

The problem wasn't in keeping the law, but in how it was perceived to be kept,

this man went down to his house justified rather than the other Lk.18:24

Our Lord was in no way teaching that the man who was justified no longer had to keep the law this way, or would be justified on judgement day if he didn't.

Paul never once meant that "Jesus abolished the law.", or, "Believers don't need to keep the law", or, "Don't worry uf you're living in sin because you're still saved by faith."

What Paul did mean is that our Creator had every right to fry sinners who nailed him to a cross but didn't do it, so,

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances Eph.2:15

Judge not, that ye be not judged. Mt.7:1

And thinkest thout his, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doestthe same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Rom.2:3

Calvanists took a serious problem in the early church between Jews and gentile over circumcision and turned it into, "We don need to do what the law says to be saved."

 

[atpollard]

Not all reformed are willing to admit it.
I don't really understand why.

I think you might need to rewatch that video. God did NOT create Evil according to Sproul. The KJV has a clumsy translation of a Hebrew word that has a broad meaning from “food that tastes bad” at one extreme to “moral evil” at the other extreme and in that verse it is used as the opposite of “good fortune” as “darkness” is the opposite of “light”. EVIL is not the opposite of Good Fortune. Calamity or Bad Fortune is the opposite of Good Fortune. So God IS responsible for “good luck” and “bad luck”, but that is not the same as God created EVIL.

 

[atpollard]

"Don't worry uf you're living in sin because you're still saved by faith."

Do you really know of anyone that advocates that?
I know of no reformed Christian that does. The issue is simple … Ephesians 2:10 comes AFTER Ephesians 2:8-9 because we are saved by the grace of God (not our good works) and we are sustained in God’s salvation by the grace of God (not our good works) because our MERIT rests on the WORKS and the BLOOD of Jesus Christ and not on any innate merit that we earned by working for it. THEN comes Ephesians 2:10 where we are GOD’s Masterwork (the wonderful thing that God has done). Free from any need to perform or fear of being “good enough” or “not good enough”, we are free to DO what God has given us to DO out of a joyful heart full of gratitude and love. We need earn or keep nothing; Christ keeps us. Our only debt is one of love.

To continue to wallow in sin is anathema to our new birth. Not because God will reject us and cast us out if we do (obey or God will stop loving you, as you advocate), but because THAT is not who we are. The natural man cannot do the things of God because they are contrary to his nature. The NEW MAN cannot live the life of the world/flesh because they are contrary to his (and God’s) nature … and God’s nature lives inside of us.

 

[JLB]

I can’t believe you went there.

John 6:44

• No one can come to Me [Total Inability of man to choose Christ]
• unless the Father who sent Me [Unconditional Election of God to 'show mercy on whom He will show mercy']
• draws him; [Irresistible Grace of God effectually draws man to salvation in the Son]
• and I will raise him up at the last day. [Preservation of Saints, by God, from Predestination through Glorification.]

… I follow Christ. Why don’t you?

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44


Amen.


Did Judas Iscariot come to Him?






JLB

 

[JLB]

Ask the POPE and his … 1.3 BILLION followers.
The Reformers said we needed to abandon the RCC and get back to the BIBLE as our authority. That is why GOD raised up an army of Reformers to draw church people back to what SCRIPTURE actually teaches.

My question has nothing to do with the Pope.


I asked you.


Why would God need to Reform the doctrine of Christ?






JLB

 

[atpollard]

In Chapter 3.1 it states that from the beginning of time God had put into place everything that happens.
However, He orders everything so that He is not the creator of sin. An immediate contradiction.

No, it isn’t.
The quote I posted from Ligonier Ministries explained it and RC Sproul explained it in the video you posted.

1. To “order” or “ordain” is to control, which is not the same as creating. It was Joseph’s brothers that freely chose to hate him, attempt to kill him and ultimately sell Joseph into slavery. God allowed and controlled all of it to further God’s plan and purpose. God allowed them to hate Joseph, but not to KILL him. God controlled the sale of Joseph so that Joseph would go to Egypt. Without Joseph in Egypt, millions (including all of Israel) would have starved in the coming famine and without Egypt, the hatred between the children of 4 different mothers in the house of Jacob would never have been healed. However, GOD never forced anyone to do something evil. God merely permitted it. If you cannot see the difference, then I do not know how to make the difference any clearer.
2. God created EVERY “THING”. Evil is not a thing. Bring me a bushel of “evil”. Evil is “missing the mark”. Evil is a measure of how far a thing is from God’s perfection. God does not create how much something is NOT like Him. The analogy is “COLD” or “DARK”. Neither exist, they just represent the absence of HEAT or LIGHT (which do exist and can be measured. GOD is the measure of GOOD and evil is the description of that which deviates from GOD … the absence of GOD.

 

[atpollard]

I asked you.

I answered you, you just ignored the answer.

 

[atpollard]

Why would God need to Reform the doctrine of Christ?

Asked and answered … next question.

 

[JLB]

I think you might need to rewatch that video. God did NOT create Evil according to Sproul. The KJV has a clumsy translation of a Hebrew word that has a broad meaning from “food that tastes bad” at one extreme to “moral evil” at the other extreme and in that verse it is used as the opposite of “good fortune” as “darkness” is the opposite of “light”. EVIL is not the opposite of Good Fortune. Calamity or Bad Fortune is the opposite of Good Fortune. So God IS responsible for “good luck” and “bad luck”, but that is not the same as God created EVIL.

We don’t need to watch videos.

We don’t need to read books.

We need to obey Jesus Christ, if expect to receive everlasting salvation.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

• He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

Those who follow Christ are those who obey Him.

Follow = Obey


How do you follow someone without obeying them.


Paul says it this way —


For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:14


He leads we follow.


A follower of Jesus Christ is someone who is led by Him.


He leads us in the paths of righteousness.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Asked and answered … next question.

You have answered nothing.

You mentioned something about some Pope.

Catholicism doesn’t teach the doctrine of Christ. They teach their own man made religion.



Why would God need to reform the doctrine of Christ?





JLB

 

[JLB]

I answered you, you just ignored the answer.

Why would you think that asking me to ask the Pope is an answer?


You answer if you can.


Would does the doctrine or teachings of Jesus Christ need to be reformed?






JLB

 

[JLB]

The Reformers said we needed to abandon the RCC and get back to the BIBLE as our authority.

I have never been involved in the RCC, have you?


Do you understand this scripture or do you need to have it interpreted (filtered) by someone else?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


What does whoever believes mean to you?






JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

No scripture again?

When are you going to adress the scriptures that I posted?

You have to be clearer to be understood. I think you are asking for the Reformed doctrine on OSAS which I will define as Once Saved Always Saved which means once a person has saving faith he will not lose it.

Re: your following statement:

When are you going to adress the scriptures that I posted?

What scriptures? Where? You, to my knowledge, didn't even establish your doctrine of OSAS. Again, is the subject OSAS, please confirm? You have to try to make clear statements.

...as I said I had to drive to Fort Worth to baby sit while son and daughter-in-law go to Dallas Stars playoff game. Kids finally in bed. Five year old told me that way to salvation and had memorized several verses that chimed off ... anyways... took my laptop and finally have a minute.

Of the Perseverance of the Saints​

Baptist Confession of Faith

Chapter 17​

---

Paragraph 1​

Those whom God has accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, from which source he still begets and nourishes in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality;1 and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them,2 yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraved upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.3

1 John 10:28,29; Phil. 1:6; 2 Tim. 2:19; 1 John 2:19
2 Ps. 89:31–32; 1 Cor. 11:32
3 Mal. 3:6


.... I could give many more verses

Now you can tell me why there is a chance you could go to hell assuming the subject is OSAS and that is your position.

Aside: logically speaking, a Christian that believes he might lose his faith should commit suicide rather than take the chance of going to hell instead of heaven for eternity...your playing very bad odds.

 

[JLB]

You have to be clearer to be understood. I think you are asking for the Reformed doctrine on OSAS which I will define as Once Saved Always Saved which means once a person has saving faith he will not lose it.

Re: your following statement:

What scriptures? Where? You, to my knowledge, didn't even establish your doctrine of OSAS. Again, is the subject OSAS, please confirm? You have to try to make clear statements.

...as I said I had to drive to Fort Worth to baby sit while son and daughter-in-law go to Dallas Stars playoff game. Kids finally in bed. Five year old told me that way to salvation and had memorized several verses that chimed off ... anyways... took my laptop and finally have a minute.

Of the Perseverance of the Saints​

Baptist Confession of Faith

Chapter 17​

---

Paragraph 1​

Those whom God has accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, from which source he still begets and nourishes in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality;1 and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them,2 yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraved upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.3

1 John 10:28,29; Phil. 1:6; 2 Tim. 2:19; 1 John 2:19
2 Ps. 89:31–32; 1 Cor. 11:32
3 Mal. 3:6


.... I could give many more verses

Now you can tell me why there is a chance you could go to hell assuming the subject is OSAS and that is your position.

Aside: logically speaking, a Christian that believes he might lose his faith should commit suicide rather than take the chance of going to hell instead of heaven for eternity...your playing very bad odds.

Baptist confession of faith?

Are you kidding?

Are any of you people going to address any of my posts with the scriptures I have posted?


Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32


John says it again here in 2 John 9.
Notice the emphasis again on the word abide.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christdoes not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Do you understand the words of this scripture?

Do you understand that if you don’t remain in the doctrine of Christ you no longer have Christ?

You can’t teach Heresy and have Christ.

If you have Christ you have eternal life.

If you do not have Christ, you no longer have eternal life.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12








JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

No scripture here.


Try actual scripture.

That is 3 important verses.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Do you really know of anyone that advocates that?
I know of no reformed Christian that does.

Neither do I personally. There may be a few here that hear it, but most believe that our Father needed to punish his Son in order for sinners to be forgiven. That's what you believe. I believe sinners need to repent for punishing his Son to be forgiven.

The issue is simple … Ephesians 2:10 comes AFTER Ephesians 2:8-9 because we are saved by the grace of God (not our good works) and we are sustained in God’s salvation by the grace of God (not our good works)

I never said we are saved by our (pride) works. I said we're saved by our (humble) works,

When we were dead in sins, we were made alive. Eph.2:1, Isa.66:2
Those sins were by pride. vs.2, Jb.41:34
Our former conversation, all pride. vs.3,
Isa.66:2
But our Father in mercy put up with our crap and the proof of this is when Jesus had the people who murdered him, standing around cross mocking him. vs.4, 1Sam.2:25

because our MERIT rests on the WORKS and the BLOOD of Jesus Christ and not on any innate merit that we earned by working for it.

Our merit rests on the "the blood of Jesus Christ" because it was shed holding back his anger at the injustice that was happening to him, vs.4, Heb.12:4
His grace made us alive. vs.5, Act.5:41
And now we have this heavenly knowledge of how much our Father loves us. vs.6, Jn.15:20
So that throughout church history, people would see Christ in us, vs.7, Mt.5:44
Our faith is the result of what Jesus did. vs.8, Heb.11
Not because we've been good according to the law as as source of pride. vs.9, Psa.143.2

THEN comes Ephesians 2:10 where we are GOD’s Masterwork (the wonderful thing that God has done). Free from any need to perform or fear of being “good enough” or “not good enough”, we are free to DO what God has given us to DO out of a joyful heart full of gratitude and love. We need earn or keep nothing; Christ keeps us.

Because of our Savior, God writes the law he gave Moses in our hearts that way. The way God in human flesh observed it himself.

Our only debt is one of love.

I completely agree. To transgress what God on earth said, is worse than anyone elses testimony,

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb.10:28-29

To continue to wallow in sin is anathema to our new birth. Not because God will reject us and cast us out if we do (obey or God will stop loving you, as you advocate), but because THAT is not who we are.

No, that's who we were. And we remember who we were, we're not superior to anyone, but we're one in him now. In him there is no condemnation. No condemnation to anyone who walks after his Spirit, his example.

The natural man cannot do the things of God because they are contrary to his nature.

By "natural man", Paul means people driven by pride, lust, etc. He doesn't mean people are incapable of understanding God if they want to.

The NEW MAN cannot live the life of the world/flesh because they are contrary to his (and God’s) nature … and God’s nature lives inside of us.

Don't put your battle gear away until you're six feet down. After laying an assault against Jesus, it says the devil

departed from Him until an opportune time. Lk.4:13

and here's the most opportune time he had,

His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Lk.22:44

Calvanists believe the Lamb suffered so they don't have to. A follower of Christ believes the Lamb suffered, so

I beseech youtherefore, brethren, by the merciesof God, that ye present yourbodies a living sacrifice, holy,acceptable unto God, which isyour reasonable service Rom.12:1, Psa.44:22