A look at 1 John 3.6

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

The church has the cure for sin.
His name is Jesus Christ, and those baptized into Him walk after the Spirit and not the "flesh".

Did I not say that the Church is the hospital and Jesus the Head Physician?
Of course we are to walk after the Spirit instead of the Flesh. Where have I stated differently?
Why do you keep making false accusations against me?
That is a sin, you know.

 

[live2blive]

Every sin !
More precisely, every sin that men will repent of and have washed away by the blood of Christ.

I agree that the blood of the Messiah washes away sins if the believer sincerely repents. Yet, when John said "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world", he said it about the sin (singular) of the world (whole world). What is the sin of the world which the Savior took away? Sin of Adam.

by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans 5:12, 18)

 

[live2blive]

Below is a partial list of a preparation for Confession for the Orthodox Church.
Do you personally declare yourself free of any of these sins, in that you never commit any of them?

Sins Against Your Neighbours

Do you respect and obey your parents, and show respect to priests, superiors at work, teachers, and elders?

Have you offended them by rudeness or contradiction?

Have you insulted anyone?

Have you quarreled or fought with anyone? Have you hit anyone?

Are you always respectful to old people?

Are you ever angry, bad tempered or irritable?

Have you called anyone names? Do you use foul language?

Have you derided any that are disabled, poor, old or in some way disadvantaged?

Have you entertained bad feelings, ill will or hatred against anyone?

Have you forgiven those who have offended you?

Have you asked forgiveness from those whom you have offended?

Are you at peace with everyone?

Have you left the needy without help when you could have helped?

Have you attended the sick or elderly when they have asked you to do so?

Have you shown kindness and attention to all, remembering that God is expecting just such an attitude from you?

Have you hit animals without a cause or been cruel to them, or neglectful of those in your care?

Have you stolen anything?

Have you taken or used other people's things without asking?

Have you kept money or things that were lent you without returning them?

Have you wasted your employers' time or resources? Have you taken things from work for your own use, used the firm's phone or other facilities for your own purposes without permission or repayment?

Are you obstinate, and do you always try to have your own way?

Have you been inconsiderate of other people's feelings?

Have you tried to have your revenge against those who have offended you?

Have you harbored resentment? Have you deceived people?

Have you gossiped?

Have you told untruths?

Have you judged and condemned others?

Have you taken pains before approaching for confession to be reconciled with all?

Do you care for and seek first the salvation of your soul, the spiritual life and the kingdom of God, or have you put earthly considerations in the first place?

Have you been proud? Do you boast of your abilities, achievements, family, connections or riches?

Do you deem yourself entitled before God?

Are you vain, ambitious? Do you try to win praise and glory?

Do you bear it easily when you are rightly scolded or blamed? Do you own up to it? Do you bear it easily even when blamed, scolded or treated unjustly?

Do you think too much about your looks, outward appearance and the impression you make?

Have you sinned in thought, word or deed, by a look or glance, or in any other way against the seventh commandment? (Adultery, fornication, extra-marital sexual relationships with others, engaging in unnatural sexual acts; adulterous fantasizing, pornography, masturbation etc.)

Have you envied anyone anything? Have you been over-sensitive?

Have you been lazy? Have you done your duties heartily?

Have you wasted your time, energy or abilities in things that do not profit the soul?

Have you become obsessive about anything? Have you been despondent or listless?

Have you had thoughts of committing suicide, or worse yet threatened it worrying others or even attempting it?

Have you brought a curse on yourself or others or ill-wished them, being impatient?

Have you a weakness for alcohol? Have you drank too much, or become dependent on drink?

Have you taken, injected, or smoked mind-altering drugs, other than necessary medicines?

Have you watched television [or been on computer or phone] too much or indiscriminately? Have you given yourself up to any other similar pastime which wastes your time and energy and might have harmed you?

Have you been greedy, either with regard to food or to possessions?

Have you indulged in comfort-eating? Have you become accustomed to eating between meals?

Have you been picky about your food, or wasteful of foods, forgetting that so many people are without proper nourishment? Have you been extravagant? Have you been wasteful?

Is there any other sin, which burdens your conscience, or which you are ashamed to tell?

This is an impressive list, thank you for sharing. In principle, this is the same as Mosaic Law - to show the people including believers how sinful they are. "Ministration of condemnation" (2 Corintheans 3:9). If I watch a Green Bay Packers game and then a movie - it is a sin according to this list.

Fortunately, the ministration of the Savior is different:

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:17,18).

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

This is an impressive list, thank you for sharing. In principle, this is the same as Mosaic Law - to show the people including believers how sinful they are. "Ministration of condemnation" (2 Corintheans 3:9). If I watch a Green Bay Packers game and then a movie - it is a sin according to this list.

Fortunately, the ministration of the Savior is different:

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:17,18).

You said:
Fortunately, the ministration of the Savior is different:

My response:
Is it? Not according to you. Unless I am completely misunderstanding you.
From what I have read, you have stated that a Christian cannot be a Christian, unless that Christian is free of all sin. And you reference 1st John to support your position.
I was merely providing a list of sins that you have proclaimed yourself (granted that you view yourself as a Christian and hold yourself to the standard you have set forth) free from.
Is that the case? You are free from all of these sins?
If not, does that mean that YOU are NOT a Christian?

 

[live2blive]

You said:
Fortunately, the ministration of the Savior is different:

My response:
Is it? Not according to you. Unless I am completely misunderstanding you.
From what I have read, you have stated that a Christian cannot be a Christian, unless that Christian is free of all sin. And you reference 1st John to support your position.
I was merely providing a list of sins that you have proclaimed yourself (granted that you view yourself as a Christian and hold yourself to the standard you have set forth) free from.
Is that the case? You are free from all of these sins?
If not, does that mean that YOU are NOT a Christian?

Yes, it looks like you misunderstood me. I was saying that those who are born of God don't sin according to 1 John 3:6-9. There are Christians who are born of God (and don't sin) and there are Christians who are not yet born of God (and continue to sin).

The list of sins you presented is impressive, but I don't view everything in this list as sin. What is sin?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Did I not say that the Church is the hospital and Jesus the Head Physician?

Jesus cures.

Of course we are to walk after the Spirit instead of the Flesh. Where have I stated differently?
Why do you keep making false accusations against me?
That is a sin, you know.

You will have to cite my accusation.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I agree that the blood of the Messiah washes away sins if the believer sincerely repents. Yet, when John said "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world", he said it about the sin (singular) of the world (whole world). What is the sin of the world which the Savior took away? Sin of Adam.

by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (Romans 5:12, 18)

If Adam's sin has been washed away, why are there people still dying ?
Adam's sin brought death into the world, so if it is now gone, why did death remain ?

Jesus' blood can wash away every sin men will repent of.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Yes, it looks like you misunderstood me. I was saying that those who are born of God don't sin according to 1 John 3:6-9. There are Christians who are born of God (and don't sin) and there are Christians who are not yet born of God (and continue to sin).

The list of sins you presented is impressive, but I don't view everything in this list as sin. What is sin?

OK, still need some clarification.
The Christians who are not born of God, yet.....are they saved Christians in your theology, or are they lost and on their way to hell until they are born of God?

To answer your question. In Orthodox theology, sin is missing the mark in the aspect of us nit living up to God's expectations of how we are to live our lives. He made us to be perfect, little Icons of Himself. When we miss that mark, it is called, "sin".

 

[live2blive]

If Adam's sin has been washed away, why are there people still dying ?
Adam's sin brought death into the world, so if it is now gone, why did death remain ?

This is a good question. God said that Adam would die at the same day when he eats the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17). However, Adam lived afterwads and died when he was 930 years old. Did God make a mistake? Of course not: when Adam ate the forbiden fruit he died instantenously in his soul or conscience. For God the true death is spiritual death:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:20).

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:6).

In addition, please consider these words of Paul:

...the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:18).

What is seen (physical creation including physical man Adam) is temporal, not because Adam sinned, but because God set things up this way.

Jesus' blood can wash away every sin men will repent of.

Yes, I agree.

 

[MisterE]

Hopeful 2 said: Jesus' blood can wash away every sin men will repent of.

I would say this differently. Jesus' blood has washed away every sin. The sin of believers and unbelievers have been paid for. That's the good news, the gospel. Read 2 Pt 2.1 (notice that the false teachers have been redeemed) and 1 John 2.2.
The removal of sin does not equal salvation. Salvation is ONLY by accepting God's offer of salvation.

 

[live2blive]

OK, still need some clarification.
The Christians who are not born of God, yet.....are they saved Christians in your theology, or are they lost and on their way to hell until they are born of God?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6)

To answer your question. In Orthodox theology, sin is missing the mark in the aspect of us nit living up to God's expectations of how we are to live our lives. He made us to be perfect, little Icons of Himself. When we miss that mark, it is called, "sin".

Thank you for the answer. Yes, the meaning of the Hebrew word "sin" is "missing the mark". But what is the mark God does not want us to miss? What are God's expectations of us?

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:28,29).

Not believing in the Savior - this is missing the mark, according to the Scriptures. I don't think that missing the mark means watching a Packers game for several hours.

The Bible defines sin as the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). What law is transgressed when a person watches TV for several hours?

 

[Hopeful 2]

This is a good question.

It is a question that refutes the idea that "the sin of the world" was Adam's sin.

God said that Adam would die at the same day when he eats the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17). However, Adam lived afterwads and died when he was 930 years old. Did God make a mistake?

No.
Until Adam disobeyed God, he couldn't die. (Rom 5:12)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2 said: Jesus' blood can wash away every sin men will repent of.

I would say this differently. Jesus' blood has washed away every sin.

I disagree, as not everyone has yet been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF PAST SIN.

The sin of believers and unbelievers have been paid for. That's the good news, the gospel. Read 2 Pt 2.1 (notice that the false teachers have been redeemed) and 1 John 2.2.

That's an interesting perspective.
All I can say is...the purchase has been made but it still has to be retrieved at the check-out counter.
Just because the payment has been made, doesn't insure delivery.

The removal of sin does not equal salvation. Salvation is ONLY by accepting God's offer of salvation.

That and the other things commanded by Jesus and the apostles: including enduring faithfully until the end.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6)

I take this to mean that you consider sinful Christians to be saved, but that they are a work in progress?
Iow, the "perseverance of the saints"?

Thank you for the answer. Yes, the meaning of the Hebrew word "sin" is "missing the mark". But what is the mark God does not want us to miss? What are God's expectations of us?

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:28,29).

Not believing in the Savior - this is missing the mark, according to the Scriptures. I don't think that missing the mark means watching a Packers game for several hours.

Jesus also said "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect".
And, what the Church was talking about in reference to watching the game is that if it is interfering with your spiritual life, keeping you from partaking of Communion, or any other aspect of the Christian life in God, then it is a sin.

The Bible defines sin as the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). What law is transgressed when a person watches TV for several hours?

 

[live2blive]

No.
Until Adam disobeyed God, he couldn't die. (Rom 5:12)

Do you think that death is only physical but not spiritual?

 

[live2blive]

I take this to mean that you consider sinful Christians to be saved, but that they are a work in progress?
Iow, the "perseverance of the saints"?

If the people sincerely believe truth about Christ, they will be saved. It is also possible that the people believe in Christ but fall away (Luke 8:13).

Jesus also said "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect".

And, what the Church was talking about in reference to watching the game is that if it is interfering with your spiritual life, keeping you from partaking of Communion, or any other aspect of the Christian life in God, then it is a sin.

I agree that focusing on spiritual life is the priority. However, one may think that watching the game always interferes with the spiritual life, because instead of watching the game one can always read the Bible. Therefore, I still think that the list of sins you shared is legalistic and leads to condemnation. Which is not what the Crist taught.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

If the people sincerely believe truth about Christ, they will be saved.

Even if they continue in sin? Or are you saying that if they continue in sin, then they are not truly Christian?
I am still a bit confused by your position. earlier in the thread you were emphatic that Christians do not sin, and you referenced 1st John as your proof. What happened to that position?

It is also possible that the people believe in Christ but fall away (Luke 8:13).

By sinning? Or is there something else to that?

I agree that focusing on spiritual life is the priority. However, one may think that watching the game always interferes with the spiritual life, because instead of watching the game one can always read the Bible. Therefore, I still think that the list of sins you shared is legalistic and leads to condemnation. Which is not what the Crist taught.

Well, Christ taught that sin was paid for by Himself. If sin is paid for, as the Scriptures state, then sin cannot send a person to hell.
The list is for spiritual reflection and penitence to draw us closer to God by reflection on our imperfections. It is not for condemnation. The Sacrament of Confession cleanses us from sin, through Christ. Your charge of legalism is misplaced.
I note you did not respond to Jesus' Word..."Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect".
If we are not perfect, have we not disobeyed the Lord?
If we disobey the Lord, have we fallen away?
Or is it, rather, that we are to be immersed in our love for God, participating in His Energies through the Holy Spirit; walking in the Fruit of the Holy Spirit and that walking in the flesh (sin) draws us away from that Life. It is not the sin which condemns us. It is our lack of Theosis which can condemn us.

 

[MisterE]

It is our lack of Theosis which can condemn us.

Just a reminder that there are two different condemnations in Scripture. One is Positional Condemnation. That is what we are born with, we are born IN ADAM, and by this birth, we are born positionally qualified to be the recipients of God's benevolence and grace. There is also an Eternal Condemnation, which is the result of rejecting God's offer of salvation.

 

[live2blive]

Even if they continue in sin? Or are you saying that if they continue in sin, then they are not truly Christian?
I am still a bit confused by your position. earlier in the thread you were emphatic that Christians do not sin, and you referenced 1st John as your proof. What happened to that position?

I never said that Christians don't sin. I said that those who are born of God don't sin (1 John 3:9). Not all Christians are born of God as Luke 8:13 shows.

By sinning? Or is there something else to that?

By having no roots:

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away (Luke 8:13).

Well, Christ taught that sin was paid for by Himself. If sin is paid for, as the Scriptures state, then sin cannot send a person to hell.

The list is for spiritual reflection and penitence to draw us closer to God by reflection on our imperfections. It is not for condemnation. The Sacrament of Confession cleanses us from sin, through Christ. Your charge of legalism is misplaced.

I note you did not respond to Jesus' Word..."Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect".

If we are not perfect, have we not disobeyed the Lord?

If we disobey the Lord, have we fallen away?

Or is it, rather, that we are to be immersed in our love for God, participating in His Energies through the Holy Spirit; walking in the Fruit of the Holy Spirit and that walking in the flesh (sin) draws us away from that Life. It is not the sin which condemns us. It is our lack of Theosis which can condemn us.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified (Hebrews 10:14).

 

[Hopeful 2]

Do you think that death is only physical but not spiritual?

Without a context, I know there is a physical death and a second death.
As for a spiritual death, I would have to say I don't know.
Is dead in trespasses and sins a spiritual death ?