A New Twist On An Old Debate...Evolution

[Truthfrees]

I think some of them are saying it is surrounded by a wall of ice. I think...

then my question is what if you are an extreme sports guy and scale the ice wall? - do you fall off the edge and end up in space?

 

[Edward]

then my question is what if you are an extreme sports guy and scale the ice wall? - do you fall off the edge and end up in space?

I dunno. Are they believers? They could be met by Jesus. Or fall up off the edge, lol. If they were to fall down then I would suppose that they fall into outer darkness?!

 

[Truthfrees]

I dunno. Are they believers? They could be met by Jesus. Or fall up off the edge, lol. If they were to fall down then I would suppose that they fall into outer darkness?!

lol - good point

 

[for_his_glory]

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

When God told Adam and Eve to replenish the earth it makes me wonder if there was a civilization that God created at one time before creating Adam and Eve. Could it be possible God destroyed them and began anew?

Just one of those inquisitive questions I have to ask myself at times, but probably has no answer.

 

[Edward]

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

When God told Adam and Eve to replenish the earth it makes me wonder if there was a civilization that God created at one time before creating Adam and Eve. Could it be possible God destroyed them and began anew?

Just one of those inquisitive questions I have to ask myself at times, but probably has no answer.

I've heard that stuff before and they manage to make it sound plausible. They had me wondering. Then one day I seen the obvious...In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, then man. Then named him. So nah that's just a rabbit trail.

 

[Moseme]

then my question is what if you are an extreme sports guy and scale the ice wall? - do you fall off the edge and end up in space?

The wall is to high to climb you will die before you get to the top.

 

[Moseme]

for_his_glory Edward

What you are talking about is called the gap theory. The basics of the theory is that between genesis 1:1 and 1:2 there is a gap that is not covered because it doesn't effect humanity really. Let me lay out the time line.
1. God makes the heavens and earth in a perfect state.
2. It is populated by life including some pre-adamite race and Lucifer is given authority over it.
3. Lucifer rebels and leads this pre-adamite race away from God.
4. Judgement is passed and the earth is destroyed by a more devastating flood than Noah experienced and Lucifer is cast out.
5. God recreates the world in 6 days and creates Adam.

I am also able to provide scriptures that supports this theory

 

[for_his_glory]

for_his_glory Edward

What you are talking about is called the gap theory. The basics of the theory is that between genesis 1:1 and 1:2 there is a gap that is not covered because it doesn't effect humanity really. Let me lay out the time line.
1. God makes the heavens and earth in a perfect state.
2. It is populated by life including some pre-adamite race and Lucifer is given authority over it.
3. Lucifer rebels and leads this pre-adamite race away from God.
4. Judgement is passed and the earth is destroyed by a more devastating flood than Noah experienced and Lucifer is cast out.
5. God recreates the world in 6 days and creates Adam.

I am also able to provide scriptures that supports this theory

I've always leaned towards a gap theory, but yet has never been proven. I would like to read those scriptures if you could post them.

 

[for_his_glory]

I've heard that stuff before and they manage to make it sound plausible. They had me wondering. Then one day I seen the obvious...In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, then man. Then named him. So nah that's just a rabbit trail.

It could be a rabbit trail, but yet it peaks my own curiosity as it has nothing to do with our salvation, but only thoughts that ramble around my brain.

 

[Moseme]

I've always leaned towards a gap theory, but yet has never been proven. I would like to read those scriptures if you could post them.

Ok first we can look at genesis chapter 1 for instance. When looking at this chapter in the original Hebrew we see several clues first in verse 1 the hebrew word for heaven is (samayim) and is then used for 95% of the words translated as heaven, including in verse 8 and the word for earth is the exact same as in verse 10 (eres) which means dry land. So in verse 1 could read in the beginning God created the heavens and dry land. So the question is if he created the heavens and dry land in verse one why have to do it again in verses 8 and 10?
Also the word used for create in verse one is (bara) which means to create from nothing. Its is also used in verses 21 and 27 when it discusses creating life in man and animals. Everywhere else in this story of creation where we see the word made it is the word (asa) which just means to make. During the 6 days of recreation the only thing that god makes from nothing is life. I mean dry land was already there under the water God just had to move the water that for some reason ended up covering it.
So let's get into some real scriptures on this. Isaiah 14:12-17 shows Lucifer and his rebellion which we know had to have happened before he deceived Eve. This passage tells us a few things about his rebellion 1. He had a throne signifying authority, 2. His throne was on earth under the stars and under the clouds, 3. During his rebellion he weakened the nations so there were people on earth during his rebellion.

Ezekiel 28: 12-19 another passage on Satan and his rebellion. Though it says king of tyre it is referring to a spiritual king. Notice it has to be an angel because it calls him the anointed cherub and mentions him being in the garden of Eden. It goes on to give a description of him whether literal or figurative I dont know. Id like to say literal considering all of the other discripions of angels. But it also explains the reason for the rebellion which is his pride. Also there apart about defiling sanctuaries during the rebellion.
2 Peter 3: 5-13 here Peter lists 3 sets of heaven and earth. An old heaven and earth that perished in a flood, the current heaven and earth, and a future heaven and earth that will be created after fire melts the current ones. Alot of people would like to say that the first set of heaven and earth was that before Noah. The problem is that Noah's flood did not make the earth perish and it did not harm the heavens at all. There were still animals and plants and humans after so no perishing. Look at how Peter talks about this current heaven and earth melting away and shee how absolute this perishing is.

Basically why would a perfect God create an imperfect world? That's double working right there. But if verse 2 is the result of some divine judgement involving flooding the earth because of Satan's rebellion on earth, then it makes more since to me. Everywhere else you look in the bible darkness is always a result of judgement. From the 10 plagues of Egypt to the judgement of revelations. Darkness is always the result of judgement, even in genesis 1:2.

Read genesis 1:2 again and then read Jeremiah 4: 23-29. See the similarities? I believe that this is a brief description of this judgement. They have practically the same words explaining the same state. Without form and void and darkness.
Well here is a few verses. There is also how well this theory holds up with the age of the earth and its history.

 

[for_his_glory]

Ok first we can look at genesis chapter 1 for instance. When looking at this chapter in the original Hebrew we see several clues first in verse 1 the hebrew word for heaven is (samayim) and is then used for 95% of the words translated as heaven, including in verse 8 and the word for earth is the exact same as in verse 10 (eres) which means dry land. So in verse 1 could read in the beginning God created the heavens and dry land. So the question is if he created the heavens and dry land in verse one why have to do it again in verses 8 and 10?
Also the word used for create in verse one is (bara) which means to create from nothing. Its is also used in verses 21 and 27 when it discusses creating life in man and animals. Everywhere else in this story of creation where we see the word made it is the word (asa) which just means to make. During the 6 days of recreation the only thing that god makes from nothing is life. I mean dry land was already there under the water God just had to move the water that for some reason ended up covering it.
So let's get into some real scriptures on this. Isaiah 14:12-17 shows Lucifer and his rebellion which we know had to have happened before he deceived Eve. This passage tells us a few things about his rebellion 1. He had a throne signifying authority, 2. His throne was on earth under the stars and under the clouds, 3. During his rebellion he weakened the nations so there were people on earth during his rebellion.

Ezekiel 28: 12-19 another passage on Satan and his rebellion. Though it says king of tyre it is referring to a spiritual king. Notice it has to be an angel because it calls him the anointed cherub and mentions him being in the garden of Eden. It goes on to give a description of him whether literal or figurative I dont know. Id like to say literal considering all of the other discripions of angels. But it also explains the reason for the rebellion which is his pride. Also there apart about defiling sanctuaries during the rebellion.
2 Peter 3: 5-13 here Peter lists 3 sets of heaven and earth. An old heaven and earth that perished in a flood, the current heaven and earth, and a future heaven and earth that will be created after fire melts the current ones. Alot of people would like to say that the first set of heaven and earth was that before Noah. The problem is that Noah's flood did not make the earth perish and it did not harm the heavens at all. There were still animals and plants and humans after so no perishing. Look at how Peter talks about this current heaven and earth melting away and shee how absolute this perishing is.

Basically why would a perfect God create an imperfect world? That's double working right there. But if verse 2 is the result of some divine judgement involving flooding the earth because of Satan's rebellion on earth, then it makes more since to me. Everywhere else you look in the bible darkness is always a result of judgement. From the 10 plagues of Egypt to the judgement of revelations. Darkness is always the result of judgement, even in genesis 1:2.

Read genesis 1:2 again and then read Jeremiah 4: 23-29. See the similarities? I believe that this is a brief description of this judgement. They have practically the same words explaining the same state. Without form and void and darkness.
Well here is a few verses. There is also how well this theory holds up with the age of the earth and its history.

Thank you for this. I think it's just one of those conundrums as we could never know for sure, but I do believe it's way more than 6000 years old.

 

[stovebolts]

Read genesis 1:2 again and then read Jeremiah 4: 23-29. See the similarities? I believe that this is a brief description of this judgement. They have practically the same words explaining the same state. Without form and void and darkness.
Well here is a few verses. There is also how well this theory holds up with the age of the earth and its history.

I love the first few chapters of Genesis.
we see God created the heavens and the earth and Gods Spirit hovered over the waters.
The psalms speak of deep waters In a fretful manner.
the earth was without form, and darkness covered the earth.

darkness and without form denote that which is not created. God did not create darkness, it is the absence of light. That which is formed, shows intent.

as a result, deep waters, darkness and without form describe chaos. What we see in the creation account is God putting order into the world. He does so by enabling His creation to create.

inside the garden is harmony. Adams mod is to expand this harmony. He is to expand Eden Because outside Eden is chaos.

Im wrestling with your idea of judgment within this narrative. I can see a piece of it, but not a clear picture quiet yet. Can you help me weave it into my narrative?

and yes, bara is an interesting word. It’s Greek counterpart is hylye.

 

[stovebolts]

Basically why would a perfect God create an imperfect world? That's double working right there. But if verse 2 is the result of some divine judgement involving flooding the earth because of Satan's rebellion on earth, then it makes more since to me. Everywhere else you look in the bible darkness is always a result of judgement. From the 10 plagues of Egypt to the judgement of revelations. Darkness is always the result of judgement, even in genesis 1:2.

First, what God created wasn’t perfect. Instead, it was very good. Furthermore, notice he empowers his creation to continue to create. This shows that creation was not complete.

I still don’t see darkness as a result of judgement and there are many issues with a narrative of Satan being cast down prior to our creation story. Job being one of them.

the plagues in Egypt were judgment against all the gods of Egypt. Help me to better understand by darkness is a result of Gods judgment. to a degree, I understand evil and darkness as the absence of God.

 

[Moseme]

Thank you for this. I think it's just one of those conundrums as we could never know for sure, but I do believe it's way more than 6000 years old.

Funny thing is I did not know this theory existed when I came upon it in the bible. I also knew the earth to be way older and every church that I had ever been to believed in a young earth creation. I thought the only choices were atheism and evolution or God and young earth creationism. I started to lean towards atheism until I realized that macro-evolution was extremely implausible and the fine tuning of the universe screamed that it had a creator. I was very confused there was a creator like the bible said but the creation we observe didnt seem to match with what genesis told us. So I was confused for a very long time until I became a Christian ans had alot of time to read. And I really enjoyed reading about angels so Isaiah 14 really held my attention. But I began to start asking when this rebellion happened. Long story short I came up with this rebellion theory. I was honestly a little disappointed that I hadnt come up with anything new and that this theory had been around for a minute. Anyways long story short this rebellion doesn't really concern us to much except we have to deal with fallen angels and so there is not a whole lot about this celestial rebellion in the bible. That said I have a responsibility to seek out the truth amd believe what the evidence is pointing at. A topic like this has very, very little to do with salvation so believing the wrong theory is no big deal unless it leads you away from God like atheism. I just sincerely believe that this theory has the most cohesive evidence.

 

[stovebolts]

zekiel 28: 12-19 another passage on Satan and his rebellion. Though it says king of tyre it is referring to a spiritual king. Notice it has to be an angel because it calls him the anointed cherub and mentions him being in the garden of Eden. It goes on to give a description of him whether literal or figurative I dont know.

Go back to Kings and you’ll see the king of Tyre was crucial to the supplies for Solomons Temple.
The temple represents copies of the heavens. It is a place where God dwells in harmony with creation. This echos Eden and the harmony that existed then, and will exist again. Cherubs guarded the entrance to the garden and they also are found over the mercy seat in the holy of holies. Again, the king of Tyre supplies these goods and was very tight with Israel.

Solomon did not treat him right and when Ezekiel, who was a temple priest wrote those words while in exile, Tyre had become an enemy to Israel. This is a stark contrast to the harmony they once shared.

 

[Moseme]

I love the first few chapters of Genesis.
we see God created the heavens and the earth and Gods Spirit hovered over the waters.
The psalms speak of deep waters In a fretful manner.
the earth was without form, and darkness covered the earth.

darkness and without form denote that which is not created. God did not create darkness, it is the absence of light. That which is formed, shows intent.

as a result, deep waters, darkness and without form describe chaos. What we see in the creation account is God putting order into the world. He does so by enabling His creation to create.

inside the garden is harmony. Adams mod is to expand this harmony. He is to expand Eden Because outside Eden is chaos.

Im wrestling with your idea of judgment within this narrative. I can see a piece of it, but not a clear picture quiet yet. Can you help me weave it into my narrative?

and yes, bara is an interesting word. It’s Greek counterpart is hylye.

I know that there is alot of myths that speak of the earth coming out of chaos but I do not believe that is the case with christianity because God is omnipresent there would be no room for chaos to exist because god would instead be there and God is definitely not chaos. Basically there is God and there is what God created. And I simply dont see god creating chaos which is so contrary to his nature.

Also I believe that there is to different kinds of perfect. 1) the perfect that God is which is a self sustaining complete perfection. 2) and a perfect that is full of grace. Like Noah, Job, and Lucifer we know that they werent really perfect because they were not God,but because God is gracious and loving he viewed them as perfect. That would be the same for everything that he created the earth and Adam included. God would not create something unless he was perfectly happy with the results. So if being void and without form and covered by deep waters was what God wanted to create then why add light and life? I have to assume that the earth being void and without form was not something that God desired since he changed it.

As for judgement narrative. When there is sin and rebellion there is judgement. Lucifer rebelled cause about a third of the angels to also rebel and according to isaiah 14 the nations on earth at the time as well. And we know this all had to be done by the time he deceived Eve in the garden. So a just God has to deal with judgment for rebellion. We are just blessed that Jesus took that judgment for us.

Ok on to this darkness part. The 9th plague of Egypt was darkness. When Jesus died on the cross taking our judgment there was darkness. In revelations there are a couple of judgments that involve darkness. Every time we see a darkness in Scripture it is a part of divine judgment.

Lastly in regards to Satan being cast down. There is a difference between Satan being cast down from his position of authority and being completely cast out of the presence of God. According to most scholars interpretation of revelations 12 his being cast out of the presence of God will be a future event. But lets not forget that Jesus said in Luke 10:18 that he saw Satan fall from heaven and Job doesn't actually mention Satan being in heaven when he was talking with God.

Any other questions I can take a crack at?

 

[Moseme]

Go back to Kings and you’ll see the king of Tyre was crucial to the supplies for Solomons Temple.
The temple represents copies of the heavens. It is a place where God dwells in harmony with creation. This echos Eden and the harmony that existed then, and will exist again. Cherubs guarded the entrance to the garden and they also are found over the mercy seat in the holy of holies. Again, the king of Tyre supplies these goods and was very tight with Israel.

Solomon did not treat him right and when Ezekiel, who was a temple priest wrote those words while in exile, Tyre had become an enemy to Israel. This is a stark contrast to the harmony they once shared.

you could be right. I like to take a very literal approach to scripture unless it is very clear it is symbolic. Then most of the time the symbols are then explained. So when the bible first talks about a normal king of tyre and then begins to talk about him again using phrase like sealing up the sum, being in Eden the garden of God, descibes a very supernatural appearance, beating the anointed cherub that covers, being on the mountain of God, and walking among the stones of fire, saying that he was perfect when he was created. Those are just a few statements about him. I just take this literal because there is no indication that it is meant to be symbolic. But if you disagree that is also fine, though rejecting these answers then means that you need to find new answers. Can you do that?

 

[stovebolts]

know that there is alot of myths that speak of the earth coming out of chaos but I do not believe that is the case with christianity because God is omnipresent there would be no room for chaos to exist because god would instead be there and God is definitely not chaos. Basically there is God and there is what God created. And I simply dont see god creating chaos which is so contrary to his nature.

I have a very interesting book which is an accumulation on Ancient Near Eastern Texts (ANE), some which pre-date the Bible. Within these writings may be the myths your referring to. Are you familiar with the creation story evolving Tiamat? It is one such story that promoted a creation founded in chaos. Perhaps your familiar with the Egyptian accounts of creation, or the epics of Gilgamesh as well.

I bring this up because these were contemporary stories in their day and they effected the Biblical narrative. For example, El and Elohim are not Hebrew words, yet they are borrowed from the surrounding cultures.

From one perspective, Genesis 1 is considered a priestly account of creation and Genesis 2 is considered a Yahwistic account. This is to say that the creation account in Genesis 1 is written in an apologetic form which counters the creation accounts in the surrounding cultures. As a result, it pushes against the surrounding cultures that the earth and heavens were bound in turmoil, angry gods and chaos. It pushes against the idea that humanity was created as servants to the angry gods. What Genesis 1 shows is that our God creates order out of chaos and we, the children of God are tasked with creating order.

Genesis 1 teaches us first and foremost that words are very powerful. And God said... God speaks order out of chaos.

Now then, is this to say God created chaos? In the ancient mind, the answer is no. Kinda. Hear me out. Before God speaks light into the world, there is darkness. God did not speak darkness into the world. Darkness is the absent of light.

Isaiah 45:7
King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

How then does a good God create darkness then, and doesn’t this verse contradict what I’ve written?

How does the Lord create darkness and Evil? Simple, it is through His absence. This gets into the discussion of Gods presence in his absence and speaks directly to Exile.

Again, humanity was exiled from the Garden and Gods presence. The Tabernacle, and later the Temple served the same function as Eden. It was a place where God and man reconciled and were in the presence of one another. When humanity breaks covenant, it breaks the harmony which once existed and points to our souls being in exile. It is God who exiles those who break covenant and casts them out of His presence. As a result, it can be said they are cast into darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Moseme]

I have a very interesting book which is an accumulation on Ancient Near Eastern Texts (ANE), some which pre-date the Bible. Within these writings may be the myths your referring to. Are you familiar with the creation story evolving Tiamat? It is one such story that promoted a creation founded in chaos. Perhaps your familiar with the Egyptian accounts of creation, or the epics of Gilgamesh as well.

I bring this up because these were contemporary stories in their day and they effected the Biblical narrative. For example, El and Elohim are not Hebrew words, yet they are borrowed from the surrounding cultures.

From one perspective, Genesis 1 is considered a priestly account of creation and Genesis 2 is considered a Yahwistic account. This is to say that the creation account in Genesis 1 is written in an apologetic form which counters the creation accounts in the surrounding cultures. As a result, it pushes against the surrounding cultures that the earth and heavens were bound in turmoil, angry gods and chaos. It pushes against the idea that humanity was created as servants to the angry gods. What Genesis 1 shows is that our God creates order out of chaos and we, the children of God are tasked with creating order.

Genesis 1 teaches us first and foremost that words are very powerful. And God said... God speaks order out of chaos.

Now then, is this to say God created chaos? In the ancient mind, the answer is no. Kinda. Hear me out. Before God speaks light into the world, there is darkness. God did not speak darkness into the world. Darkness is the absent of light.

Isaiah 45:7
King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

How then does a good God create darkness then, and doesn’t this verse contradict what I’ve written?

How does the Lord create darkness and Evil? Simple, it is through His absence. This gets into the discussion of Gods presence in his absence and speaks directly to Exile.

Again, humanity was exiled from the Garden and Gods presence. The Tabernacle, and later the Temple served the same function as Eden. It was a place where God and man reconciled and were in the presence of one another. When humanity breaks covenant, it breaks the harmony which once existed and points to our souls being in exile. It is God who exiles those who break covenant and casts them out of His presence. As a result, it can be said they are cast into darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I was referring to Egyptian and Greek myths invokving chaos. And I have no idea what you mean by priestly and yahwistic accounts. I'm sure that if I tried to wrap my head around it, I could, however I find that the Bible is simple and in our attempt to learn the most about it sometimes we miss the picture. I have a friend who could tell can discuss in theological depth every part of salvation and has never recieved it himself because he thinks he can earn salvation with his knowledge and diligence at study. I know that it would be easy for me to get carried away because before I met Jesus intellectual pride was my biggest flaw. So I keep it simple. I know that God is infinite and God is order. So before he created a creation that would choose to rebel against him and bring chaos, before there was creation there was infinite order and all of creation came from order and not chaos.

Looking at your explanation of God speaking order into chaos and speaking light into darkness and darkness being the absence of light. God is order and God is light so that really sounds like a limited God. If there is darkness before creation then there was a limit to how far God's light reached. I dont see god speaking order into chaos. But shaping order into a different form of order by the instructions of his words. But all of this depends on my belief that god is infinite, without any limits or boundaries, without beginning or end. I believe that is the only way a being can be all knowing, ever present, and all powerful.

But how do you imagine God? A giant on a throne? A shapeless cloud in space? Where are the limits our finite mind places on an infinite being?

And the human king of tyre never went into the Temple either so even of the Eden in Ezekiel was the Temple (which the is absolutely no indication of that possibility in Scripture) this "king of tyre" was not human.

 

[stovebolts]

was referring to Egyptian and Greek myths invokving chaos. And I have no idea what you mean by priestly and yahwistic accounts. I'm sure that if I tried to wrap my head around it, I could,

Yes, the book I have includes the Egyptian accounts. The greek accounts are merely recasted Akkadian and other ANE myths as well as Egyptian myths. You see, the gods of old were bound to geographic locations and when they crossed boarders, they simply merged with existing God's. Do you recall when Jacob was running from Esau and he had a dream of angles accending and decending? Do you recall what he says? Surely you are in this place. Jacob then makes a deal with God that if God kept him safe in the foreign land, then he would serve God. Our God was showing Jacob that He wasn't confined to any geographic location And how much more when God entered Egypt.

Genesis 1 is a priestly account and was written from a temple perspective. God is called El and Elohim. El is singular and in cultural reference, El is the Title for the singular God of the Pantheon. Elohiem is the title for the head when He is ruling over the Pantheon. Hence, Lord of Lord's, God of gods. Deuteronomy 10:17. Within it's cultural context, our God is proclaiming that He is above all the other God's. There is no God higher than our God.

Genesis 2 is considered a Yawistic text because God's name YHVH is used. It is the angle of how God personally interacts with his creation.

Genesis 1 lays out that our God is creator and sustainer of all things. He is all powerful and sovereign over all of creation. Genesis 2 shows us how our all powerful God interacts with his creation. It's more personable I guess you could say.

Genesis 1 and 2 combined act as an apologetic response to the surrounding cultures with their God's and myths.

I have a friend who could tell can discuss in theological depth every part of salvation and has never recieved it himself because he thinks he can earn salvation with his knowledge and diligence at study. I know that it would be easy for me to get carried away because before I met Jesus intellectual pride was my biggest flaw

Yes, I struggled with intellectual pride myself. But God has a way of cutting you down at the knees and bringing you low. Job was such a man and there is much from Job we can learn spiritually. Humility can beca rare commodity on forums. If I ever become prideful please let me know.

Looking at your explanation of God speaking order into chaos and speaking light into darkness and darkness being the absence of light. God is order and God is light so that really sounds like a limited God. If there is darkness before creation then there was a limit to how far God's light reached. I dont see god speaking order into chaos. But shaping order into a different form of order by the instructions of his words. But all of this depends on my belief that god is infinite, without any limits or boundaries, without beginning or end. I believe that is the only way a being can be all knowing,

There are slight differences and I think you misunderstand me. You say I day God is order and God is light. Thus God is limited. That's not what I'm saying.

Isaiah 45:7​

King James Version​

​

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Does this passage make our God an evil God? One could misunderstand this passage if they don't know God's nature and how God interacts with his creation ( Genesis 2).

I dont see god speaking order into chaos. But shaping order into a different form of order by the instructions of his words.

Isaiah 5:20​

King James Version​

​

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Keep this passage in mind while you read 45:7

Darkness is the absence of light. Genesis 1 shows our God created order where there is chaos. The absence of order is chaos. Thus goodness is created. Evil is not created. Instead, evil is the absence of goodness. How then can God be present in his absence ( how does God create evil and darkness if He is a good God).

how do you imagine God? A giant on a throne? A shapeless cloud in space? Where are the limits our finite mind places on an infinite being?

I don't imagine God, because I know God. He lives within me and guides my steps. I know His voice and I experience His presence. He has brought peace to my troubled soul and I experience the joy that only comes through Him.

Deuteronomy 30
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

And the human king of tyre never went into the Temple either so even of the Eden in Ezekiel was the Temple (which the is absolutely no indication of that possibility in Scripture) this "king of tyre" was not human.

Did Levi pay a tithe to Melchisedec?