A question for those who claim tongues for today.

[Henry]

many pentecostals today have placed such an undue impotance on tongues

Yeppers, agree totally.

What they preach and what they practice is an abomination, and God is nowhere to be found in alot of it.

Oh yes, this is true.

they would experience the collapse and ruination of their faith if they couldn't speak in an unintelligible gobbledy-gook.

Yep again, we are agreeing all over the place.

Not sure about what else you beleive doctrinally, but I agree with all that you said here about tongues.

 

[Free]

The problem with Pentecostalism is that they've become like the Corinthian Church in their use of the gifts. However, this does not make them wrong or mean that God is not in alot of it. A deficient spiritual life is just as deadly as an overheated spiritual life.

 

[cj]

Hi Job,

Jude 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit. Maintain Your Life with God 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Your first error is one which many believers make, Jude is not referring to The Spirit when he says "not having the spirit."

The meaning that Jude is implying is that these persons have rejected the matter of their spirit, and given themselves over to the lusts of their flesh.

Man is a tripartite being, and in Jude's epistle we can see where distinctions are being made regarding these three parts of man... body, soul, and spirit.

The first thing to keep in mind is that not all spoke in tongues. Just because people today use the phrase "praying in the Spirit" to refer to tongues does not mean that was what the Bible meant by it.

I agree with you, there are many believers who lack terribly in the matter of God's light.

My discussion with you is not about the errors of people, its about the matter of speaking in tongues being godly.

People are going to contrive all sorts of untrue things from the content of the bible, but this does not invalidate the bible's truth.

Paul gives a perfect example of what "praying in the Spirit" really means....By the way, this is speaking of the "armor of God" which i'm sure we would all agree is for all Christians.

Eph.6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints

All saint are told to pray "always" with "all prayer" and "supplication" "in the Spirit".[/quote]

Once again we encounter the same error as I referred to above... Paul, like Jude, is speaking about man's spirit and not the Holy Spirit.

Yet, to pray in our regenerated spirit is to pray in and with The Spirit. This is because The Spirit no dwells in our regenerated spirit, and further, is one with our spirit.

If we're not clear on the matter of a man's spirit and God's Spirit, then we are going to lack light on much of the New Testament speaking of God.

-- 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me,

that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,

This does not sound like mindless prayer to me.

It isn't.

But tell me, scripture says that Jesus constantly makes intercession for us, meaning He is in constant prayer regarding each one of us..... do you know what He is praying? And if not, does it make Jesus' prayer concerning you, mindless?

I think not.

Our mind is not what God, in His wisdom, thought to be the priority point of renewal.... He chose our spirit to renew first. This alone should be an indication to us of how important our spirit is in our relationship with God.

In fact, our spirit is the very point of contact between men and God. It is the spiritual Bethel.

Remember what Jesus said to Peter.....'It was My Father in heaven that revealed this to you'. Everything does not have to be mystical, God is very practical.

I'll go even further with that thought.... everything mystical/spiritual is for the practical.

God in man is for man's living. This is the wisdom of God made manifest.

Paul goes on to give us an example of what praying according to the will of God in submission to Him means....

20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

While in prison, Paul was not praying for comfort or ease, he was praying that he would preach the Gospel with boldness, regardless of the cost. This is praying in the Spirit Guys, it has nothing to do with tongues. It's praying according to and in harmony with the will of God.

I think you're confusing many things here.

Being filled with Christ is what empowers us to be bold. Praying in our regenerated spirit, which results in our praying according to The Spirit which is one with us in our spirit, brings us into one accord with the Father and thus His will, which is to dispense Christ into us. Yet ultimately, this is a matter of faith. And faith is of God.

When I speak in tongues, I might not have immediate understanding, but I believe and therefore have and express faith. And faith is what builds the body. God's house is a house of faith.

In Psalm 37.....4 I think, anyway, it says that God will "give you the desires of your heart". It's not that He gives us everything we ask for at any time under any circumstances, it's that when we are abiding in Him, being obedient, He will put those desires in our hearts. As a result we will pray according to His will and our prayers will be answered every time.

God is making His heart, our heart. His desires, our desires.

According to the measure of our renewed heart, we can pray in one accord with the Father's will. This is what it means to release God's will on the earth through His body.

God doesn't need the gift of languages to humble people, trust me :wink: . Weaker gifts are fine as long as they are the true gift with a Biblical purpose.

You missed the point of what I was saying.

It is not for you to judge anyone.

I disagree, God did not gift anyone to minister to Him but to the Body.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

So tell me, in the big picture, who is the Church being built for? Who does the Church serve?

Yes. I layed it out in a earlier post, somewhere in this thread.

Could you humor me and do so again.

Ok, I missed that. Do you think think that speaking in languages at home is equal or better than praying with undertanding at home and why?

I think obedience to the leading of The Spirit in our spirit is the only thing that matters. Obedience is what give God the way to build Himself into each of us.... how He chooses to manifest this building-up is up to Him.

The perfect prayer is one from the heart with our understanding, as Paul told us. I have no confidence in myself either, this is why I also pray "Your will be done, Lord" at the end of every prayer.

How is it, that if you truly have no confidence in yourself you believe you will have understand about whatever you pray?

No confidence in yourself means none, not even in what you might think you understand.

Nowhere in scripture is it taught that languages give us a deeper spiritual connection or a superior prayer. It's just not there.

I agree with you. But our discussion is not about which is better, it is about whether or not tongues are a valid form of prayer.

When Jesus gave an example of how we should pray, it was in a clear and understandable prayer. Every example of prayer in scripture is clear and understandable. When Deity prayed to Deity at Gathsemine, it was clear and understandable.

The key words regarding the above statement are "GAVE US."

But tongues are not about us so much, praying in tongues is more about what we are giving God.... which is really an open and faithful heart to have His way with.

Without the sign, tongues becomes a hinderance. They can do nothing that every saved person cannot already do more efficiantly, with less confusion, less restrictions, more Biblically and more profitible in their normal language.

Only in a gathering, Paul says. And forgive me if I sound harsh, but I would much more take Paul's word regarding this matter.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

I have a question for you all:
Hasn't the subject of tongues become 'nehushtan' in todays church?
I think it has. Maybe you don't. Well... obviously not.

Perhaps a definition of the word, nehushtan, is revealed right within the content of this post.

Gold.... white garments.... and eyesalve.... this was what our Lord counseled that we buy from Him.

But first must come lowiness and meekness, in order that we receive this counsel.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

I believe that this statement was directed to me. I started the nehushtan thing concerning tongues.
I didn't ask anyone for their humble opinion. And I don't treat the Holy Spirit with contempt.

Does that also include those of us into which God has placed His Holy Spirit, and further, by this, has made us one with Himself.

Or does your doctrine allow for you to hold in contempt those that God has saved through and by His love?

Tell me Phatdawg, do you really expect to ask a question of men and not get their opinions, humble or otherwise?

But many pentecostals today have placed such an undue impotance on tongues that their doctrine of tongues has become nehushtan.
What they preach and what they practice is an abomination, and God is nowhere to be found in alot of it.

Agreed.

Some of the people I speak of would be better served in their walk with the Lord to completely forget about tongues for a while. It would give them a chance to see that their whole christian experience has become high centered on a doctrine that is a non-issue.

Perhaps, similar to the matters of ET and UR?

It would give them a chance to get off the stump, and go on with the Lord. As for the rest of the tongues/nehushtan camp, they would experience the collapse and ruination of their faith if they couldn't speak in an unintelligible gobbledy-gook. It makes them think they are doing God a favor. It may be the best thing for them. At least they would be free of that particular bondage.

Resurrection out of death. But the principles holds only if death is experienced.

Listen folks, the time is soon upon us that we may be required to judge angels. We will judge the world with a rod of iron. Those who have never ventured beyond whether or not tongues is real will find themselves ill-equipped for the job required of them.

By "We", us who are one with Him who judges? Just wondering.

In love,
cj

 

[Dave...]

Hi Eve.

You are absolutley wrong on this but I have no way to convince you of this. Just my testimony... I was baptised in the Holy Ghost on August 26, 1980 and spoke with tongues. I knew it was from God without a doubt at all because I had asked him to send his spirit to me. I was willing to do anything or go anywhere to be his child. I was crying my heart out at the altar. I was not ashamed for anyone to know how much I wanted all God had to give me.

Eve, you are being misled. This is the milk but your church has twisted it into another gospel. Listen Eve, every born again person is born again because they were baptised into Christ with the Holy Spirit. You cannot be born again and not be baptised with the Holy Spirit. There are no longer OT saints walking around that need to make the transition from the OT to the NT. Everyone who is saved is baptised with the Holy Spirit as God's Word makes very clear.

Here is the best, and most condenced explination.

"Being filled with the spirit must be distinguished from being baptized with the spirit. The apostle Paul carefully defines the baptism with the spirit as that act of Christ by which He places believers into His body (Rom. 6:4-6; 1Cor.12:13; Gal. 3:27). In contrast to much errant teaching today, the New Testament nowhere commands believers to seek the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is a sovereign, single, unrepeatable act on Gods part, and is no more an experience than are its companions justification and adoption. Although some wrongly view the baptism with the Spirit as the initiation into the ranks of the spiritual elite, nothing could be further from the truth. The purpose of the baptism with the spirit is not to divide the body of Christ, but to unify it. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, through the baptism with the Spirit "we were all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13; cf. Gal.3:26-27; Eph. 4:4-6)

Unlike the baptism with the Spirit, being filled with the Spirit is an experience and should be continuous. Although filled initially on the day of Pentecost, Peter was filled again in Acts 4:8. Many of the same people filled with the Spirit in Acts 2 were filled again in Acts 4:31. Acts 6:5 describes Stephen as a man "full of faith and the Holy Spirit," yet Acts 7:55 records his being filled again. Paul was filled with the Spirit in Acts 9:17 and again in Acts 13:9.

While there is no command in scripture to be baptized with the Spirit, believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18 ). The grammatical construction of that passage indicates believers are to be continuously being filled with the Spirit. Those who would be filled with the Spirit must first empty themselves. That involves confession of sin and dying to selfishness and self will. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to consciously practice the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ and to have a mind saturated with the Word of God. Colossians 3:16-25 delineates the results of "letting the word of Christ richly dwell" in us. They are the same ones that result from the filling of the Spirit (Eph. 5:19-33). As believers yield the moment by moment decisions of life to His control, they "walk by the Spirit" (Gal. 5:16). The baptism of the Spirit grants the power that the filling with the Spirit unleashes." (Macarthur)

Go for the solid food, Eve, and you will see that what you have been taught is a house of cards waiting to be exposed, all you need to do is love the truth enough to test it honestly. I came from a Pentecostal church, and I left because it was unbiblical.

Has he manifested himself unto you, yet? He did to me on the night of Aug 26, at 9'Oclock in 1980. I knew when the Holy Spirit entered my body. I knew.....You can say it was the Devil if you wish but I KNOW Better. I Know and my heart breaks for people who reject him and keep saying this is not how the Holy Spirit comes to you and this is not for today. They may be sincere, but they are sincerely wrong. Sadly so.

If you have the Holy Spirit in you then you would love the truth, and God is truth. To say you love Jesus and to also disregard clear scripture without even an honest responce means you are just giving lip service. You are double minded. Start with Romans 6:4-6.

God bless

 

[Dave...]

Free

The problem with Pentecostalism is that they've become like the Corinthian Church in their use of the gifts. However, this does not make them wrong or mean that God is not in alot of it. A deficient spiritual life is just as deadly as an overheated spiritual life.

I agree 100%, but it is important to recognise that some of the things spoken about in 1 Cor. 12-14 were not good things, or things to be sought after. I believe the Pentecostal doctrines were built on rebukes from these same passages, and in effect, they have recreated the Corinthian mess.

 

[Eve777]

" Jesus Christ said to Peter, "When you are converted, strengthen the brethren," Luke 22:32. How would you react to that statement if Christ made that statement to you today? Would you be offended and react by telling Him, "He didn't really know what He was talking about," especially if Christ made this statement through one of His servants?" Would you proceed to prove to Him that you are converted by the fact that you have repented of your sins, and presently you are a commandment keeper, and that you have been baptized and you do believe, and have accepted Christ as your Savior? You would also add that you have been given God's Holy Spirit, and because of all this, you would answer "yes," you are converted.

Peter too had repented, and without question, was a commandment keeper. Peter too, had been baptized, and confessed with his mouth that Jesus was the Son of the Living God, had given up his occupation, and had been with Christ during His entire 3 1/2 year ministry, and had even partaken of Christ's first, New Covenant, Passover Service. And it was right after that Passover service that Christ made that statement to Peter, ---" When you are converted, strengthen the brethren."

Author-----Donina


When was he converted. When did he recieve the Holy Ghost? When he was in the Upper room.

Acts 1
1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

 

[Rose of Sharon]

Job,

I read your post to Eve and I must say there is a difference between being " filled" and being "baptized" with Gods spirit.

It says in John 20:22; And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

They were " filled" with the Holyghost in order to have the power to heal the sick, heal the broken hearted, the lame, the blind by the laying on of hands.

And see here in Acts 2:4; And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This was on the day of Pentecost when the spirit was "poured " out, not breathed on. There is a difference. This is salvation, not just endued power from God.
They were BAPTIZED with the spirit as Jesus says we must do in John 3:5 and Acts 2:38.
This was the day of salvation that Jesus had been promising. They all spoke in tongues AS the spirit gave the utterance. This did not happen when Jesus " breathed" on them according to the passage in John.
Now, I really have to admit that I do not know IF they spoke in tongues or not in this passage. It does not specify. It seems to me that since it was a first time for them that the word would say they did, but it doesn't, so we can only speculate.
The disciples were endued with power, but not salvation.

Salvation was not yet come , not till the day of Pentecost. And the salvation was the pouring out , the baptism of the spirit with other tongues AS evidence that it happened and they were also baptized with water, verse 41 of Acts.
THEN this means the disciples were BAPTIZED with the Holyghost and fire, they spoke with tongues. They were part of the 120 in the upper room. They received their salvation as well.

Being filled is something that is external. Being baptized is like an artisian well, springing up within the soul.

Eliabeth was " filled " with the Holyspirit , but she was not " baptized" with the HS. Again, I don't know IF she spoke in tongues or not, the passage in Luke 1:41-42; says that she prophesied.
41;And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42; And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

So again, we can speculate here as well.


God bless

 

[cj]

John  20 : 22, "And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit."

Notes from the Recovery Version bible.... This was the Spirit expected in 7:39 and promised in 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; and 16:7-8, 13. Hence, the Lord's breathing of the Holy Spirit into the disciples was the fulfillment of His promise of the Holy Spirit as the Comforter. This fulfillment differs from the one in Acts 2:1-4, which was the fulfillment of the Father's promise in Luke 24:49. In Acts 2 the Spirit as a rushing, violent wind came as power upon the disciples for their work (Acts 1:8). Here the Spirit as breath was breathed as life into the disciples for their life. By breathing the Spirit into the disciples, the Lord imparted Himself into them as life and everything. Thus, all that He had spoken in chs. 14--16 could be fulfilled.

As falling into the ground to die and growing out of the ground transform the grain of wheat into another form, one that is new and living, so the death and resurrection of the Lord transfigured Him from the flesh into the Spirit. As the last Adam in the flesh, through the process of death and resurrection He became a life-giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45). As He is the embodiment of the Father, so the Spirit is the realization, the reality, of Him. It is as the Spirit that He was breathed into the disciples. It is as the Spirit that He is received into His believers and flows out of them as rivers of living water (7:38-39). It is as the Spirit that through His death and resurrection He came back to the disciples, entered into them as their Comforter, and began to abide in them (14:16-17). It is as the Spirit that He can live in the disciples and enable them to live by and with Him (14:19). It is as the Spirit that He can abide in the disciples and enable them to abide in Him (14:20; 15:4-5). It is as the Spirit that He can come with the Father to His lover and make an abode with him (14:23). It is as the Spirit that He can cause all that He is and has to be fully realized by the disciples (16:13-16). It is as the Spirit that He came to meet with His brothers as the church to declare the Father's name to them and to praise the Father in their midst (Heb. 2:11-12). It is as the Spirit that He can send His disciples for His commission, with Himself as life and everything to them, in the same way that the Father sent Him (v. 21). They are thus qualified to represent Him with His authority in the fellowship of His Body (v. 23) for the carrying out of His commission.

The Lord was the Word, and the Word is the eternal God (1:1). For the accomplishing of God's eternal purpose, He took two steps. First, He took the step of incarnation to become a man in the flesh (1:14), to be the Lamb of God to accomplish redemption for man (1:29), to declare God to man (1:18), and to manifest the Father to His believers (14:9-11). Second, He took the step of death and resurrection to be transfigured into the Spirit that He might impart Himself into His believers as their life and their everything, and that He might bring forth many sons of God, His many brothers, for the building of His Body, the church, the habitation of God, to express the Triune God for eternity. Hence, originally He was the eternal Word; then, through His incarnation He became flesh to accomplish God's redemption, and through His death and resurrection He became the Spirit to be everything and do everything for the completion of God's building.

This Gospel testifies that the Lord is (1) God (1:1-2; 5:17-18; 10:30-33; 14:9-11; 20:28), (2) the life (1:4; 10:10; 11:25; 14:6), and (3) the resurrection (11:25). Chapters 1--17 prove that He is God among men. Men are in contrast to Him as God. Chapters 18--19 prove that He is life in the environment of death. Death, or the environment of death, is in contrast to Him as life. Chapters 20--21 prove that He is the resurrection in the midst of the old creation, the natural life. The old creation, the natural life, is in contrast to Him as the resurrection, of which the Spirit is the reality. As the resurrection, He can be realized only in the Spirit. Hence, eventually He is the Spirit in resurrection. He is God among men (chs. 1--17), He is life in death (chs. 18--19), and He is the Spirit in resurrection (chs. 20--21).

cj

 

[Dave...]

Hi cj

I don't know if i'll have time to answere your whole post today, but if not, I'll put you on the top of the list for tomorrow. I'm on a public computer, so I have a set time and even then there may be a overflow of kids waiting to play games on them. One day at a time. :


First, do you think it's irrelivant that when speaking of the Holy Spirit, the "S" is always a capitol letter?

I noticed that when you are refering to the Holy Sprit you use a capitol "S" also.

Second, Jude is speaking of apostates. These are the people that are the tares who will be seperated from the wheat. They don't have the Spirit= the Holy Spirit, and never did. If you wanted to define apostates, this is where you would do it.

Third, when can a person not have their own spirit?

What you have done cj, is take every place in the Bible that refers to the Holy Spirit and defined it as our spirit, and you have taken every place in the Bible that refers to our spirit, and defined it as the Holy Spirit.

(Apostates)
Jude 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.

17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:

18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts.

19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.

From Job
Eph.6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints

All saint are told to pray "always" with "all prayer" and "supplication" "in the Spirit".

From cj
Once again we encounter the same error as I referred to above... Paul, like Jude, is speaking about man's spirit and not the Holy Spirit.

Yet, to pray in our regenerated spirit is to pray in and with The Spirit. This is because The Spirit no dwells in our regenerated spirit, and further, is one with our spirit.

If we're not clear on the matter of a man's spirit and God's Spirit, then we are going to lack light on much of the New Testament speaking of God.

From Job
Is the Word of God the sword of your spirit, or the Holy Spirit?

Does it need that union between your spirit and the Holy Spirit to be the Word of God?

You can only pray in the Spirit when you are abiding in Him, being obedient. this can be done in English by all obedient saints.

[quote:18b83]If we're not clear on the matter of a man's spirit and God's Spirit, then we are going to lack light on much of the New Testament speaking of God.

I agree.

It isn't.

But tell me, scripture says that Jesus constantly makes intercession for us, meaning He is in constant prayer regarding each one of us..... do you know what He is praying? And if not, does it make Jesus' prayer concerning you, mindless?

I think not.

Can you show me in scripture where Jesus disconnects His mind in prayer.

15What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

It doesn't get much clearer than this.

Our mind is not what God, in His wisdom, thought to be the priority point of renewal.... He chose our spirit to renew first. This alone should be an indication to us of how important our spirit is in our relationship with God.

In fact, our spirit is the very point of contact between men and God. It is the spiritual Bethel.

[/quote:18b83]

Nowhere in scripture are we taught to disconnect our minds, in fact just the oposite is taught. see above. To disconnect our mind is mysticism.

i'm getting kicked off, I'll be bock

In Christ

Dave

 

[cj]

Acts  2 : 4, "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues, even as the Spirit gave to them to speak forth."

Notes from the Recovery Version bible.... "filled" Gk. pletho (used also in 4:8, 31; 9:17; 13:9; Luke 1:15, 41, 67), to fill outwardly. According to its usage in this book, pleroo denotes the filling of a vessel within, as the wind filled the house inwardly in v. 2, and pletho denotes the filling of persons outwardly, as the Spirit filled the disciples outwardly in this verse. The disciples were filled ( pleroo) inwardly and essentially with the Spirit (13:52) for their Christian living, and were filled ( pletho) outwardly and economically with the Spirit for their Christian ministry. The inward filling Spirit, the essential Spirit, is in the disciples (John 14:17; Rom. 8:11), whereas the outward filling Spirit, the economical Spirit, is upon them (1:8; 2:17). Every believer in Christ should experience both aspects of the Holy Spirit. Even Christ as a man experienced the same thing: He was born of the Holy Spirit essentially (Luke 1:35; Matt. 1:18, 20) for His being and living, and He was anointed with the Holy Spirit economically (Matt. 3:16; Luke 4:18) for His ministry and move. The essential Spirit was within Him and the economical Spirit was upon Him.

The outward filling of the poured out Spirit was the ascended Head's baptizing of His Body into the Spirit. On the day of Pentecost the Jewish believers, the first part of His Body, were baptized; in the house of Cornelius the Gentile believers, the second part of His Body, were baptized in the same way (10:44-47). By these two steps He baptized once for all His entire Body into the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13), who is the application and realization of Himself. His baptizing His Body into the Spirit was His baptizing it into Himself. This was the accomplishment of the baptism in the Holy Spirit promised in 1:5 by Christ, the Head of the Body.

cj

 

[Eve777]

cj......get another Bible. I know people use these because they are given freely and there is a reason for that....

The so-called "Recovery Version" of the Bible is a 'Commentary Bible' written by and used by a sect of Rapturists who call themselves "The Church." They are based at Living Stream Ministry, Anaheim, and have braches worldwide.
This 'Bible' version is a corruption written by one 'Watchmen Nee' and his sidekick 'Witness Lee.' They are two Oriental gentlemen who teach that Witness Nee is claimed to have received further revelation from God and he placed this "recovered" wisdom into his new Bible; hence the name "Recovery Version."

As of last year (2000) they only had corrupted the New Testament, but even then work on the Old Testament was under way.

If they need a new Bible to teach their pet theories, then their pet theories are offensive to God.

They use the Holy Scriptures as a platform to introduce their own corrupted commentaries that pervert the Word of God.

 

[cj]

cj......get another Bible. I know people use these because they are given freely and there is a reason for that....

The so-called "Recovery Version" of the Bible is a 'Commentary Bible' written by and used by a sect of Rapturists who call themselves "The Church." They are based at Living Stream Ministry, Anaheim, and have braches worldwide.

You know what.... you sound just like Henry. Birds of a feather.

Eve, before you condemn something perhaps you should try to find out a little more about it.

Based on what you said above, it is obvious that you know very little about the matter.

On the other hand, because of the wonderful scriptural grounding I gained early in my Christian walk, when the Lord brought me across this ministry, following scriptural instruction, to the best of my ability I fully researched and considered (and continue to consider) all aspects of it from a thorough biblical position and before the Lord.

Therefore, perhaps instead of telling me what I should do, you and I need only explore the scriptures and the intepretaion of them that we each bring to the discussion.

Oh, and by the way, I have bibles of all types. I happen to be someone who enjoys doing thorough research firsthand, and not one who depends on second-hand information.

This 'Bible' version is a corruption written by one 'Watchmen Nee' and his sidekick 'Witness Lee.' They are two Oriental gentlemen who teach that Witness Nee is claimed to have received further revelation from God and he placed this "recovered" wisdom into his new Bible; hence the name "Recovery Version."

This is incorrect. If you'd like to know the truth about these two brothers and their ministry, I can share what I have come to know about them.

As of last year (2000) they only had corrupted the New Testament, but even then work on the Old Testament was under way.

Actually, the Living Stream translation is taken from some of the most respected sources in Christian history, and it is considered to be one of the best contemporary translations available.

The brothers that worked over a decade on this translations all had some sort of traditional American seminary or college training and are quite expert on the matter of scriptural translation. In fact, there is some reconsideration of their work going on at this moment within leading Christian institutions.

In my humble opinion, of all the translations that I have used over the years I have not come across any better. This is not to say that every nuance is attended to and that it is perfect. In fact, in many of the footnotes you can find references to other commentaries and biblical interpretaion sources.

If they need a new Bible to teach their pet theories, then their pet theories are offensive to God.

This is a very shallow statement, as footnotes in bibles have been a welcome concept used by the majority of bible publishers.

They use the Holy Scriptures as a platform to introduce their own corrupted commentaries that pervert the Word of God.

I can only say that before you judge others in ignorance, and thus condemn yourself before God, take some time to consider what it is you want to have an opinion on.

Now.... that said, do you have anything to say that might get us back to the discussion at hand.

In love,
cj

 

[Free]

I agree 100%, but it is important to recognise that some of the things spoken about in 1 Cor. 12-14 were not good things, or things to be sought after. I believe the Pentecostal doctrines were built on rebukes from these same passages, and in effect, they have recreated the Corinthian mess.

Everything, that I can think of, that Pentecostals seek after are good things according to 1 Cor. They have followed the Corinthians in the abuse and misuse of these good things, but that doesn't mean that they are false.

 

[Eve777]

All I can do is warn you cj...whether you choose to believe it or just ignore it, is up to you. I wouldn't depend on footnotes and commentary by someone else when I had the actual words of God before me. You can do what you wish but if you choose to lean on these men and thier opinion and not on God's true word, you are in trouble. INHO

You know what.... you sound just like Henry. Birds of a feather.

Now I know I am going to be sick. This can't be...Say it isn't so......Hey wait!...maybe it is.....he is a Turkey and my DH calls me his little turtledove. :D :D :D

It's a joke Henry, I don't really think you are a turkey. I luv U :D

 

[cj]

All I can do is warn you cj...whether you choose to believe it or just ignore it, is up to you. I wouldn't depend on footnotes and commentary by someone else when I had the actual words of God before me. You can do what you wish but if you choose to lean on these men and thier opinion and not on God's true word, you are in trouble. INHO

This is what I meant by your being like Henry.

Instead of telling me your opinion, tell me something from God's word.

Discuss what I've brought to the discussion table from a biblical point of view, that's all.

Everyone on these boards is a disciple.... including you.

Meaning, we have all been the recipients of the light gained by saints before. And this is the way of the Lord.

So your reasoning concerning persons is off, which is why I suggested we stick to where we can find a common starting point, the content of the bible.

But don't tell me not to bring the thoughts of others, as this is what you yourself are doing.

cj

 

[Dave...]

Hi cj

Job wrote:
Remember what Jesus said to Peter.....'It was My Father in heaven that revealed this to you'. Everything does not have to be mystical, God is very practical.

cj wrote
I'll go even further with that thought.... everything mystical/spiritual is for the practical.

God in man is for man's living. This is the wisdom of God made manifest.

The point is that we don't need tongues for God to speak through us. every believer can speak according to God's will, and this would be from the Holy Spirit.

Being filled with Christ is what empowers us to be bold. Praying in our regenerated spirit, which results in our praying according to The Spirit which is one with us in our spirit, brings us into one accord with the Father and thus His will, which is to dispense Christ into us. Yet ultimately, this is a matter of faith. And faith is of God.

When I speak in tongues, I might not have immediate understanding, but I believe and therefore have and express faith. And faith is what builds the body. God's house is a house of faith.

This can be done without tongues, in English.

Job wrote:
God doesn't need the gift of languages to humble people, trust me . Weaker gifts are fine as long as they are the true gift with a Biblical purpose.

cj wrote
You missed the point of what I was saying.

It is not for you to judge anyone.

Ok, I thought I would need to come back to this. The Bible is clear that prophecy is for believers, and tongues are for unbelievers. In that sence, although tongues were still a legitimate gift, prophecy was still superior within the church and with edification as it's only goal. If the sign was being given to unbelieving Jews, then the teaching was to also edify believers with the interpretation. Speaking strictly of edification, prophecy was to be desired because it was better.

Aside from that point, all gifts are equal because the results are from God and not us. 1 Cor. 4:7 Anything good that comes from us for the Church is a undeserved gift from God. A person who greets people at the door of a gathering of believers, and does it faithfully, will be living in a mansion in heaven. A believer who is filling stadiums and great things are happening through their ministry, but doesn't do it faithfully, will be lucky to be living in the shed at the bottom of the first persons garden. God demand obedience, and faithfulness, He produces the results. So in that sence, there is no room for bragging over any gift, because the results are from God.

We are called to judge within the Church.

So tell me, in the big picture, who is the Church being built for? Who does the Church serve?

The point is that God gave us these gifts to build up and edify the Church. "seek for the edification of the Body" is the call. These gifts were given to us for us (but not for selfish use). God will be glorified when we are all edifying others, and receiving edification from others. It's a great plan.

Job wrote concerning prophecy:
Yes. I layed it out in a earlier post, somewhere in this thread.

cj wrote
Could you humor me and do so again.

Although prophecy was used by God to reveal His written Word, the word "prophecy" never meant anything more than speaking forth, to proclaim. In 1 Cor. 14:3 Paul tells us what the gift of prophecy is for....

14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

And elsewhere we see that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy ...

Rev. 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

And the Bible is the testimony of Jesus.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

I don't believe that we are receiving new revelation anymore, we have the faith once for all delivered. But to preach the gospel, I believe, is to prophesy. I do believe that those who are gifted with prophecy would naturally excell in areas that others would not normally.

God bless

Now to the other stuff. :o

 

[Dave...]

Hi Eve and everyone

I'm going to answer all of you guys at the same time because we are all teaching on the same points. If you feel I missed something important, please remind me because I want to answer every question that is relevant.

I agree with Eve that the recover version sounds a bit shady. Though some would take it to more extremes, I think the big four NASB, NIV, KJV, NKJV are reletively safe. I'm still looking into it. I prefer the NKJ, myself, but reference the other also.

Anyways, I believe what is being missed here when speaking about the Holy Sprit is the transition from the old covenent to the new. If you were to believe that John 2o:21-22 was the giving of the Holy Spirit as promised, then you would have to also believe that the church was born there also. You would have to also believe that from that point on, beople could be born again, something that no OT saint could be before the birth of the Church. They were saved, by faith, but not born again.

So let's look at a few things.

1) To be baptised with the Holy Spirit is to be born again. Romans 6:3-6

2) This is still a future event in Acts 1:5 Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9.

3) Jesus is the prophesied baptiser as John told us. Matt. 3:10-12

4) The Holy Spirit is the agent of baptism. 1 Cor. 12:13

5) The Church is the Body of Christ. Eph. 1:23 Col. 1:24

6) Christ is the Head of the Church. Eph 1:22 5:23

7) The birth of the Church. Acts 2

8) You cannot be born again unless you are baptised into the Body of Christ. Romans 6:3-6 etc.

9) Conditions that needed to be met. You could not be born again until.........

----A) Jesus died and was resurrected.

----B) We had the agent of baptism (Holy Spirit). These must happen first.
........1) Christ must go away, depart, physically seen no more. John 16:7,10.
........2) He must be glorified. John 7:39.
........3) To "send" Him (John 14:26, 15:26) He must first go away.
........4) He must go to the Father. John 16:7,10.
........5) The Church must be birthed. Acts 2

10) At Petecost the conditions were met. Acts 2:33. 1) They were not seeing Him (physically) 2) He was glorified (exalted) 3) He could then "send" the Holy Spirit. 4) He was with the Father, at his right hand. 5) The Church was born.

11) We are all baptised into one Body. 1 Cor. 12:13

12) There is one Body, one baptism. Eph. 4:4-6 1 Cor. 12:12-13

13)When you are baptised into Christ and Born again, you are Complete in him. Col. 2:9,12 2 Peter 1:3,4

14) There is no need of a second blessing. John 3:34

15) Even during this transitional period, the saved by faith (old covenent) Old Testament saints needed to be upgraded to the New Testament baptism (born again, baptised into the body of Christ, the Church.) Acts 19:1-7.

16) This Gift from Acts 11:15 (the Holy Spirits permanent indwelling, sealed until the day of redemtion) was the same Gift given to the Apostles at the beginning, i.e. The birth of the Church, which is Now for all nations and people. Acts 2:28,39. (also notice it is speaking of "the" Holy Spirit as the Gift.

17) Christ had to be the fisrt (not born again, but the first one to rise). Col. 1:18

John 7:39, 14:16,17,26, 15:16, 16:7, 10, were all fullfilled at Pentecost Acts 2:33, and not John 20:21, 22.

" the believers in Samaria who were converted under the ministry of Philip had to wait a short while to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit, until Petr and John came up to Samaria and layed hands on the converts (Acts 8:17). In that unique transitional situation as the Church was beginning, those particular believers had to wait for the Holy Spirit,but they were not told to seek Him.The purpose for that exception was to deminstrate to the apostles, and to bring word back to the Jewish believersin general, that the same Holy Spirit baptized and filled Samaritan believers as baptized and filled Jewish believers--just a short while later Peter and a few other Jewish Christians were sent to witness to Cornelius and his householdin order to be convinced that the gospel was for all men and to see that "the Holy Spirit had beenpoured out on the Gentiles also"(Acts 10:44-45). Those special transitional eventsdid not represent the norm, as our present text makes clear, but were given to indicate to all that the body was one".

God bless

 

[cj]

Job,

I don't know about the others, but may I suggest our keep the responses down in size somewhat. Really, I tried to follow your writing but somewhere in the middle you seem to be going in ten different directions.

If we're here to edify and be edified, then we need to consider how folks will respond to what we write. From experience, I know that trying to make ten different points in one response gets no one anywhere.

Sometimes a point needs a lengthy response, but the response should stay on point or it just becomes a ramble.

That said, forgive me if this response gets long, but I'll try to be shorter in the future.

I appreciate your taking the time you do to respond, but there are some things I must go back to....

The point is that we don't need tongues for God to speak through us. every believer can speak according to God's will, and this would be from the Holy Spirit.

And yet Paul tells us its a gift from God.

Anything we receive from God is through the Spirit... and this alone tells us that God is first, mystical, and then practical.

God is spirit Job.

You know, you really have not said that speaking in tongues is not of God. What you are trying to say is that there is a better way, and because there is a better way, all believers should take this way.

Great, Paul said this two thousand years ago.... but he also said some other relevant things, things you seem to be deliberately ignoring.

The erroneous teaching concerning speaking in tongues that is rampant throughout Christianity is terrible, against God, and hurts the growth of the Body of Christ. But lets not go to the other extreme and throw the baby out with the bath water.

This can be done without tongues, in English.

And yet, once again I will point out, God gave us this gift.

Ok, I thought I would need to come back to this. The Bible is clear that prophecy is for believers, and tongues are for unbelievers.

Here you are deliberately leaving out some of God's speaking regarding this matter.

You can't do this and expect others who also know the scriptures to take what you sau seriously.

If you are going to refer to scripture to support a point, then do so according the light of all scripture related to this point.

Don't cherry-pick what suits your opinion.

In that sence, although tongues were still a legitimate gift, prophecy was still superior within the church and with edification as it's only goal. If the sign was being given to unbelieving Jews, then the teaching was to also edify believers with the interpretation. Speaking strictly of edification, prophecy was to be desired because it was better.

Better for who... the unbeliever who has not been redeemed and fill with the Spirit? Are we instructed to edify the walking dead?

Have you ever considered this matter of "a sign for the unbeliever"? Doesn't scripture tell us that men saw Jesus do many more wonderful signs that interpreting a foreign language, yet these men still mistakenly saw these signs as the work of the Devil. Why would unbelievers think otherwise when they saw a person interpreting a foreign language?

Job, scripture is not letters you take and make laws with, scripture is the written testimony of a Living Word, a Person who's name is Jesus.

Many times in the bible God has declared the fact that He is beholden to no one and no way. God does what He wants when He wants, how He wants, anytime He wants. And yet you, a man, would think to limit Him because you "know what the bible says about a matter."

Aside from that point, all gifts are equal because the results are from God and not us. 1 Cor. 4:7 Anything good that comes from us for the Church is a undeserved gift from God. A person who greets people at the door of a gathering of believers, and does it faithfully, will be living in a mansion in heaven.

And here we run smack into the result of terrible teaching.

Job, there are no mansions in heaven that the faithful are going to be living in..... Just ask John the Revelator, he had a pretty good view of things up there.

Surely there is a reward for those who are faithful with what the Lord has given them. But the teaching of mansions is as bad as the worse teaching on tongues.

A believer who is filling stadiums and great things are happening through their ministry, but doesn't do it faithfully, will be lucky to be living in the shed at the bottom of the first persons garden. God demand obedience, and faithfulness, He produces the results. So in that sence, there is no room for bragging over any gift, because the results are from God.

Do you know what obedience and faithfulness look like in God's eyes Job?

We are called to judge within the Church.

Yet we know that our Lord said "Let him with no sin cast the first stone."

Are you with no sin Job?

Again, you cannot take scriptures that support the point you want to make without also considering other related scriptures.

The point is that God gave us these gifts to build up and edify the Church. "seek for the edification of the Body" is the call. These gifts were given to us for us (but not for selfish use). God will be glorified when we are all edifying others, and receiving edification from others. It's a great plan.

But you did not answer my question.... who is the Church being built for? Who does the Church serve?

You made a statement that believers serve the Body, and I said believers serve God first. Lets stick to the point.

I don't believe that we are receiving new revelation anymore, we have the faith once for all delivered. But to preach the gospel, I believe, is to prophesy. I do believe that those who are gifted with prophecy would naturally excell in areas that others would not normally.

So prophecy is speaking forth God.... good, I agree.

But lets be clear that there is also a "speaking for God" prophecy, which is more a type of foretelling. This is also another confused teaching going on in Christianity. Christian fortune-tellers. Its the way of the world mixed with the things of God; some truth, but lots of leaven. Babylon all over again... as prophesied.

But back to speaking forth God.... prophecy within a gathering of believers is speaking that infuses faith into others, as well as yourself, even as you are speaking.

Romans 10:17, "So faith comes out of hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Galatians  3 : 2 , "This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?"

So here we are.... right back to the matter of faith, the matter I brought up before.

See Job, faith is what builds God's house. And God's house is the one Church. Therefore it is faith that builds the Church.

Colossians  3 : 16, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to God.

1 Corinthians  14 : 15, "What then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray also with the mind; I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing also with the mind.

That word "also" tells us that Paul was say that praying and singing in faith is according to two elements of our salvation.... initial redemption and organic growth in God.

We immediately receive a renewed spirit upon being redeemed, but our minds must be renewed over a period of time. Therefore, for a young believer, who struggles with a mind set on the old creation, I believe the Lord gives grace through the gift of tongues. But the Lord is after matured saints, and so, through various dealings during our life He causes us to turn to Him in a desperate way, open to His life that renews our mind. And this takes time, a long time. And it is only when we are well into this process of the renewal of our mind by God, that we can truly pray and sing according to God's will with our minds.

Job, there is so much vanity in our prayers and praise. But the Lord is patient with us; just as we should be with each other.

In love,
cj