Always Spirit-Filled Or A Leaky Vessel?

[Sister]

Sister & hawkman

If the disciples were saved before Pentecost, then what happened in Matthew 10:1-20 when this temporary indwelling was given even to Judas Iscariot whom was not even a believer but a traitor per John 6:63-71? Regardless, Jesus had explained when and how the born again of the Spirit was to occur after His ascension which was after His crucifixion for ALL those who believe in Him ( John 3:7-16 ), then that has to include His disciples too as He said so to His disciples as the forever indwelling holy Ghost would be given to them from the Father when Jesus was no longer present with them but had gone to the Father above in John 14:1-3 John 14:16-17 & John 14:25-26.

Since no one can tell when one is born again of the Spirit, how did Luke know and why had he written that they never had the Holy Spirit but they were just water baptized in His name unless they never had that born again of the Spirit moment?

Wouldn't this just prove there is an infilling of Holy Spirit other then just for salvation, but for power and authority? Why would Jesus tell the disciples to be filled with the Spirit right before the ascension and Day of Pentecost? Wasn't it a matter of days before Pentecost in John 20:20-23? He breathed on them and told them to receive the Holy Spirit. So when were the disciples saved? Remember this is after Judas had committed suicide.

 

[Golgotha]

Using tongues as a private prayer language is Biblical, but even if it was not, you have been teaching false doctrines unintentionally. This doesn't make you an apostate. You are not preaching a different Jesus. You are just wrong in your interpretations. Now if you want to talk about scriptures to disprove tongues as a private prayer language, we can talk about that. The burden of that proof rests with you since you brought up the conversation to disprove that. But be sure that you are making correct accusations then passing judgement with scriptures taken out of context.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. KJV

If you peruse all Bible versions on this verse, they all say the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself but can only speak what He hears.

You can do more at this link.

Bible Gateway For Comparing Different Versions on John 16:13

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. NIV

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. ASV

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. NKJV

John 16:13 But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth [full and complete truth]. For He will not speak on His own initiative, but He will speak whatever He hears [from the Father—the message regarding the Son], and He will disclose to you what is to come [in the future]. AMP

The added enclosed portion of that verse in the AMP colored in green is in error because it is not in line with the following verses in the AMP where Jesus testified that all the Father has is now His for how the Holy Spirit get things from the Son.

John 16: 14 He will glorify and honor Me, because He (the Holy Spirit) will take from what is Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Because of this I said that He [the Spirit] will take from what is Mine and will reveal it to you. AMP

Anyway, ALL Bible version has that message on how the Holy Spirit will not speak from Himself but only speaks what He hears in serving as the Spirit of Christ now that Jesus has ascended to Heaven to be with the Father & all power has been given unto Him.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. KJV

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Sister]

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. KJV

If you peruse all Bible versions on this verse, they all say the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself but can only speak what He hears.

You can do more at this link.

Bible Gateway For Comparing Different Versions on John 16:13

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. NIV

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. ASV

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. NKJV

John 16:13 But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth [full and complete truth]. For He will not speak on His own initiative, but He will speak whatever He hears [from the Father—the message regarding the Son], and He will disclose to you what is to come [in the future]. AMP

The added enclosed portion of that verse in the AMP colored in green is in error because it is not in line with the following verses in the AMP where Jesus testified that all the Father has is now His for how the Holy Spirit get things from the Son.

John 16: 14 He will glorify and honor Me, because He (the Holy Spirit) will take from what is Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Because of this I said that He [the Spirit] will take from what is Mine and will reveal it to you. AMP

Anyway, ALL Bible version has that message on how the Holy Spirit will not speak from Himself but only speaks what He hears in serving as the Spirit of Christ now that Jesus has ascended to Heaven to be with the Father & all power has been given unto Him.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. KJV

Thanks for sharing.

I never said Holy Spirit didn't if you are using this against private usage of tongues. I'm not sure of your point.

 

[Golgotha]

Well ok , I am entering into a conversation I have never had with another Christian .

Iron sharpens iron may happen as the Lord ministers.

Golgotha , I know you are good at posting verses from the Bible but I do not know of any verses that support the above statements . But I guess you can try .

Maybe when we continue reading past John 7:37-38, we may find it?

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) KJV

So when was Jesus was glorified? When He had ascended to Heaven. That was why He told them to tarry in Jerusalem to receive the promise from the Father.

Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. 50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. 51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: 53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen. KJV

It was after His ascension was Jesus glorified while they waited for their salvation. the promise of the Spirit from the Father as in the power at their born again of the Spirit moment;

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. KJV

 

[Golgotha]

Wouldn't this just prove there is an infilling of Holy Spirit other then just for salvation, but for power and authority?

Preceding the born again of the Spirit moment as in preceding salvation? No. Because that is not happening to sinners before their born again of the Spirit moment when they believe in Him. What had happened was a temporary infilling like He did in Matthew 10:1-20 where Judas Iscariot was a recipient also but he was not a believer, but a traitor. John 6:62-71 Note John 6:62-63 as Jesus said again when believers are saved but after His ascension.

Why would Jesus tell the disciples to be filled with the Spirit right before the ascension and Day of Pentecost? Wasn't it a matter of days before Pentecost in John 20:20-23? He breathed on them and told them to receive the Holy Spirit. So when were the disciples saved? Remember this is after Judas had committed suicide.

Again, that was a temporary infilling like in Matthew 10:1-20 because Jesus was with them. Jesus had explained the born again of the Spirit will happen after His ascension per John 3:7-16 for when whomsoever believes in Him will be saved

Jesus had explained that to His disciples upon Him leaving them in John 14:1-3 for when the forever indwelling holy Ghost will come in John 14:16-17 as that will be sent at their born again of the Spirit moment at their salvation when Jesus was no longer present with them as this promise will be sent from the Father John 14:25-26

Do click on the scripture references to read to have me avoid having a long post.

 

[Golgotha]

I never said Holy Spirit didn't if you are using this against private usage of tongues. I'm not sure of your point.

John 16:13 says the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself but only speak what He hears and that means He cannot pray from Himself out loud.

If the Holy Spirit is praying, then He is just reciting the words back from Jesus and that does not make sense when Jesus is in Heaven to ask the Father directly as Our Mediator.

So that is not the Holy Spirit praying for why that tongue is not a foreign language of men to speak unto the people ( 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 ) for why we are not to believe every spirt but test them and the tongues they bring 1 John 4:1-6 because tongues were never to serve as a sign to believers about anything and yet already saved believers are using tongues ass a sign of having received the other baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:22 says that tongues are not a sign for believers but for unbelievers. That proves that other baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues for already saved believers to seek after is another calling for why it is apostasy.

Prayer is needed as wisdom has to come from the Lord to see the truth in His words.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Even if you are in disagreement, but pray to at least understand with His help where I am coming from as written in the scripture.

 

[hawkman]

Iron sharpens iron may happen as the Lord ministers.

Maybe when we continue reading past John 7:37-38, we may find it?

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) KJV

So when was Jesus was glorified? When He had ascended to Heaven. That was why He told them to tarry in Jerusalem to receive the promise from the Father.

Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. 50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. 51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: 53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen. KJV

It was after His ascension was Jesus glorified while they waited for their salvation. the promise of the Spirit from the Father as in the power at their born again of the Spirit moment;

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. KJV

Don't see anything here to prove the statements you made below .

So His disciples were not saved yet until Jesus was glorified by having ascended to Heaven to be with the Father for that born again of the Spirit to happen for all believers.

That was why He told His disciples to tarry in Jerusalem and that was for their born again of the Spirit moment at their salvation.

Did you watch the video I posted ? https://christianforums.net/threads...-or-a-leaky-vessel.89164/page-12#post-1657395

What are your thoughts on this video ?

 

[Sister]

Preceding the born again of the Spirit moment as in preceding salvation? No. Because that is not happening to sinners before their born again of the Spirit moment when they believe in Him. What had happened was a temporary infilling like He did in Matthew 10:1-20 where Judas Iscariot was a recipient also but he was not a believer, but a traitor. John 6:62-71 Note John 6:62-63 as Jesus said again when believers are saved but after His ascension.

Again, that was a temporary infilling like in Matthew 10:1-20 because Jesus was with them. Jesus had explained the born again of the Spirit will happen after His ascension per John 3:7-16 for when whomsoever believes in Him will be saved

Jesus had explained that to His disciples upon Him leaving them in John 14:1-3 for when the forever indwelling holy Ghost will come in John 14:16-17 as that will be sent at their born again of the Spirit moment at their salvation when Jesus was no longer present with them as this promise will be sent from the Father John 14:25-26

Do click on the scripture references to read to have me avoid having a long post.

Yeh I'm not sure how to answer that. I'll have to study temporary infilling. God can use both believers and unbelievers, so I guess it proves that. But I also think this points to needing a power and authority to spread the Gospel other then just an indwelling of Holy Spirit. Because the disciples were saved. They may have not had Holy Spirit before Jesus sent Him, but they were believers in every sense of the Word. Their salvation just wasn't a permanent solution. It was OT based rather then NT based.

 

[Golgotha]

It is almost impossible to explain what it is like to speak or pray in tongues as the Holy Ghost gives the utterance . If you watch this video it could help .

1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

From the scenes in that video of the examples giving of speaking in tongues fpr private use, I am reminded of this verse above and the conclusion below.

1 Corinthian 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

[Golgotha]

Don't see anything here to prove the statements you made below .


Did you watch the video I posted ? https://christianforums.net/threads...-or-a-leaky-vessel.89164/page-12#post-1657395

What are your thoughts on this video ?

Yes. Finally as I am going down the list of alerts today. See post #249

Thank you for sharing but sad that you are not discerning that video by the scriptures.

 

[Sister]

And also, Holy Spirit can fall on unbelievers too.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

Acts 10:44-45

Another difference between Holy Spirit "on" and being indwelled by Holy Spirit. It just points to certain gifts needing an outpouring correct?

 

[Golgotha]

Yeh I'm not sure how to answer that. I'll have to study temporary infilling. God can use both believers and unbelievers, so I guess it proves that. But I also think this points to needing a power and authority to spread the Gospel other then just an indwelling of Holy Spirit. Because the disciples were saved. They may have not had Holy Spirit before Jesus sent Him, but they were believers in every sense of the Word. Their salvation just wasn't a permanent solution. It was OT based rather then NT based.

If they needed power and authority to preach the gospel, and supposedly Jesus gave that to them in John 20:22 as you assume, then why did Jesus told them to tarry in Jerusalem? Why not go out to preach the gospel until they got saved?

Cart before the horse. They had to be saved first at Pentecost so they can tell others the Good News at Pentecost and after that.

 

[Golgotha]

And also, Holy Spirit can fall on unbelievers too.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

Acts 10:44-45

That was when the unbelievers that were Gentiles, got saved.

Another difference between Holy Spirit "on" and being indwelled by Holy Spirit. It just points to certain gifts needing an outpouring correct?

I see that as reading the extra phenomenon into the verses when there is only one receiving of the Holy Spirit and that is at our salvation moment.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Since no one can tell when one is born again of the Spirit, how did Luke know and why had he written that they never had the Holy Spirit but they were just water baptized in His name unless they never had that born again of the Spirit moment?

Sorry, I missed this notification.

The issue was not could they tell if the Samaritans were born again, but could they tell if they had received the outpouring, which was generally accompanied by prophesying and speaking in tongues. It was an objective experience, not merely a subjective one, which is one of the problems I have with the standard Cessationist position. They assert that they themselves received the outpouring at the moment of salvation, yet without any external evidence of it; not that such things cannot be faked, but the apostle Peter knew that Cornelius and his house had received the Holy Spirit, not because they simply confessed to believing, but because he witnessed them beginning to speak in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[Golgotha]

Sorry, I missed this notification.

The issue was not could they tell if the Samaritans were born again, but could they tell if they had received the outpouring, which was generally accompanied by prophesying and speaking in tongues

It was not written that they had spoken in tongues after the laying on of hands by Peter & John for when they had received the Holy Spirit.

Why would they speak in a foreign language when they were all Samaritans?

. It was an objective experience, not merely a subjective one, which is one of the problems I have with the standard Cessationist position.

I am not a Cessationist but because of tongues for private use and therefore not seen as God's gift of tongues, I can see why they believe the gifts had ceased. Kind of an oxymoron because the gift of discerning spirits had to be used for them to say that.

They assert that they themselves received the outpouring at the moment of salvation, yet without any external evidence of it; not that such things cannot be faked, but the apostle Peter knew that Cornelius and his house had received the Holy Spirit, not because they simply confessed to believing, but because he witnessed them beginning to speak in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Jesus said that we would receive the forever indwelling Holy Spirit by knowing Him in us, NOT as the world receives spirits by seeing them.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So the receiving of the Holy Spirit cannot be seen as the world does in receiving spirits, but we will know Him by what? Tongues? No. Falling down out of loss of self control? No. By knowing Him dwelling in us as promised for coming to & believing in Jesus Christ for why we will never thirst nor hunger for another filling.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It was not written that they had spoken in tongues after the laying on of hands by Peter & John for when they had received the Holy Spirit.

Why would they speak in a foreign language when they were all Samaritans?

I'm saying this was the general trend, as per Acts 2, Acts 10 and Acts 19.

Jesus said that we would receive the forever indwelling Holy Spirit by knowing Him in us, NOT as the world receives spirits by seeing them.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So the receiving of the Holy Spirit cannot be seen as the world does in receiving spirits, but we will know Him by what? Tongues? No. Falling down out of loss of self control? No. By knowing Him dwelling in us as promised for coming to & believing in Jesus Christ for why we will never thirst nor hunger for another filling.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Let me get back to this, Golgotha. Your posts always seem to take a few read throughs before I know what you are saying, and I've got some stuff going on.

God bless, and thanks for the good discussion.

 

[Golgotha]

I'm saying this was the general trend, as per Acts 2, Acts 10 and Acts 19.


Let me get back to this, Golgotha. Your posts always seem to take a few read throughs before I know what you are saying, and I've got some stuff going on.

God bless, and thanks for the good discussion.

May God cause the increase and may He be willing to continue in this iron sharpen iron exchange of His ministry.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

 

[hawkman]

1 John 4:1-6

Oh my what great verses they are ! This is one to always keep in mind , Praise God !
1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Some years back I was playing music in band and two of the band members knew I was pentecostal , so they asked about speaking in tongues .
Both of my fellow band mates were Baptists and most Baptist church's in the is area forbid tongues in their church's .
Both of my band mates told me how they had to come to learning about tongues in a practical sense .
Their stories were almost just alike . They both told of how they were alone praying to God and asking " Is there something more that I can have ! " they knew in their hearts there was more of God for them .
Both of them told of receiving the Gift of tongues while they were praying alone ! The joy they describing it retelling what happened to them lifted my spirits too !
Both of my friends had spent time behind the pulpit preaching God's word so they were well versed in the God's word . They understood the Gift of Tongues !

 

[Golgotha]

Oh my what great verses they are ! This is one to always keep in mind , Praise God !
1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Some years back I was playing music in band and two of the band members knew I was pentecostal , so they asked about speaking in tongues .
Both of my fellow band mates were Baptists and most Baptist church's in the is area forbid tongues in their church's .
Both of my band mates told me how they had to come to learning about tongues in a practical sense .
Their stories were almost just alike . They both told of how they were alone praying to God and asking " Is there something more that I can have ! " they knew in their hearts there was more of God for them .
Both of them told of receiving the Gift of tongues while they were praying alone ! The joy they describing it retelling what happened to them lifted my spirits too !
Both of my friends had spent time behind the pulpit preaching God's word so they were well versed in the God's word . They understood the Gift of Tongues !

I disagree if that tongue is something being used for private use.

So if they sought that tongue by seeking another baptism of the Holy Ghost which comes by that "sign" of tongues or with evidence of tongues, then they do so ignoring that tongues are not to serve as a sign or proof to the believers for anything because tongues are only to serve as a sign or proof to the unbelievers by hearing the wonderful works of God in their native tongues per 1 Corinthians 14:20-22.

It is amazing how nobody hype seeking another baptism with the Holy Spirit with the sign of prophesy which is the spiritual gift over all spiritual gift Paul was exhorting believers to seek after per 1 Corinthians 14:1 & 1 Corinthians 14:12 .

There is nothing spectacular about that and so tongues is hyped for that other calling but that tongue does not come with interpretation, but is gibberish nonsense.

 

[eddif]

And also, Holy Spirit can fall on unbelievers too.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

Acts 10:44-45

Another difference between Holy Spirit "on" and being indwelled by Holy Spirit. It just points to certain gifts needing an outpouring correct?

I will be gentle.
I will not condemn.
I have grown myself.

The gentiles were receiving the gospel. The point at which they believed , Jesus baptized them in the Holy Spirit.

The Jews had to wait till Pentecost, but evidently the Gentiles were ahead of the game.

Cornelius had a vision (angel).
Peter had a vision.
Supernatural stuff going on big time.

On and in is still a partial mystery to me.

eddif