Always Spirit-Filled Or A Leaky Vessel?

[Golgotha]

And also, Holy Spirit can fall on unbelievers too.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

Acts 10:44-45

Another difference between Holy Spirit "on" and being indwelled by Holy Spirit. It just points to certain gifts needing an outpouring correct?

I disagree because after they heard the word, that was when they believed in Him for the remission of sins and had received the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation.

 

[hawkman]

So if they sought that tongue by seeking another baptism of the Holy Ghost which comes by that "sign" of tongues or with evidence of tongues, then they do so ignoring that tongues are not to serve as a sign or proof to the believers for anything because tongues are only to serve as a sign or proof to the unbelievers by hearing the wonderful works of God in their native tongues per 1 Corinthians 14:20-22.

I can not find the word ONLY in the verse talking about a sign for the unbelievers .
Here is the verse . KJV .

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Golgotha do you see the word ONLY in the verse above ? In fact I could not find the word ONLY in any translation of 1 Corinthians 14:22 .

It is a slippery slope you are on , take heed of these verses .

Proverbs 30

5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

 

[Golgotha]

I can not find the word ONLY in the verse talking about a sign for the unbelievers .
Here is the verse . KJV .

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Golgotha do you see the word ONLY in the verse above ? In fact I could not find the word ONLY in any translation of 1 Corinthians 14:22 .

It is a slippery slope you are on , take heed of these verses .

Proverbs 30

5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

The only reason I say that they only serve as a sign to unbelievers is because it is written that tongues do NOT serve as a sign to believer. So who else is left other than unbelievers? That is what the verse plainly says.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

So I may have added the word "only" but that is the message of truth in that verse.

 

[hawkman]

The only reason I say that they only serve as a sign to unbelievers is because it is written that tongues do NOT serve as a sign to believer. So who else is left other than unbelievers? That is what the verse plainly says.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

So I may have added the word "only" but that is the message of truth in that verse.

I am glad you see that you added ONLY .

Are you starting to grasp that praying in tongues is speaking in tongues ? It is the same operation in the believer when he speaks in tongues in prayer or to the church . The Holy Ghost will supply the words for the situation that being prayer or a message to the church .

eddif or Sister You have anything to add ?

 

[Golgotha]

I am glad you see that you added ONLY .

I am not glad that you missed that it is still the truth in that verse.

Are you starting to grasp that praying in tongues is speaking in tongues ? It is the same operation in the believer when he speaks in tongues in prayer or to the church . The Holy Ghost will supply the words for the situation that being prayer or a message to the church .

eddif or Sister You have anything to add ?

It is not the same operation when praying in tongues is never interpreted in the church.

What is being misread is here:

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Paul is the one that is praying; not the Holy Spirit. While Paul is speaking in tongues, he prays that someone else will interpret. Why? Reread verse 12.

Paul is explaining here unless someone else interpret that tongue being manifested thru him by the Holy Ghost, it is fruitless to himself as a tongue speaker until it is interpreted. That is why he prays for the understanding.

Thus there is no praying in tongue being done by the Holy Spirit but praying for someone else to interpret what the Holy Spirit is saying TO the people.

That is why Paul exhorts believers to seek the gift of prophesy over tongues because tongues is not a stand alone gift for it needs interpretation in the assembly & for the tongue speaker too.

 

[eddif]

I am glad you see that you added ONLY .

Are you starting to grasp that praying in tongues is speaking in tongues ? It is the same operation in the believer when he speaks in tongues in prayer or to the church . The Holy Ghost will supply the words for the situation that being prayer or a message to the church .

eddif or Sister You have anything to add ?

For Christians:
Prophecy is the ultimate plan for Christians. It can take place in the language of the hearer. It can take place as tongues with interpretation into the language of the hearer. Tongues with interpretation equals prophecy (speaking forth the words, message of God). It often reveals the inner thoughts of people. Subjects that need to be addressed.

For unbelievers:
Gibberish is all unbelievers want. No direction in understanding about God or what God desires is wanted. Chaos is the desired status an unbeliever wants. No desire to hear from God. So when a person makes no sense whatsoever they throw up their hands and rejoice ( he got it he got it). Got what? Absolutely nothing to do with direction toward a Christian God. In fact the opposition of God is desired. Nonsense is treasured. A pagan wants to do whatever he wants to do without interruption. To be led astray by demons is their desire,

eddif

 

[eddif]

Wouldn't this just prove there is an infilling of Holy Spirit other then just for salvation, but for power and authority? Why would Jesus tell the disciples to be filled with the Spirit right before the ascension and Day of Pentecost? Wasn't it a matter of days before Pentecost in John 20:20-23? He breathed on them and told them to receive the Holy Spirit. So when were the disciples saved? Remember this is after Judas had committed suicide.

Why? Great question Sister.
On the day of Pentecost there was a mighty rushing wind.
Jesus knew beforehand about the wind to come.

When Jesus breathed on them ( probables more like blew on them) it was a cryptic prophecy. Right then it made no sense to the Disciples. I can just about hear the disciples discussing ( why did he blow on us and say receive the Holy Spirit?).
But
On the day of Pentecost when they heard the mighty rushing wind;
They Remberef, They Believed, They Followed Directions And They Received.
Amos 3:7 kjv
7. Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

May be in code, but he tells what is to happen.

Jesus was telling the disciples what would happen.
Why he used blowing on them? I can speculate but might cause confusion of the main issue.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Yeh I'm not sure how to answer that. I'll have to study temporary infilling. God can use both believers and unbelievers, so I guess it proves that. But I also think this points to needing a power and authority to spread the Gospel other then just an indwelling of Holy Spirit. Because the disciples were saved. They may have not had Holy Spirit before Jesus sent Him, but they were believers in every sense of the Word. Their salvation just wasn't a permanent solution. It was OT based rather then NT based.

John 14:17 kjv
17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
IMHO this was a trial run for the coming infilling of the Holy Spirit. Especially a trial for healing and deliverance ministry they would receive.

A teaching elder may lay hands on a first time person praying for another person. At least I have experienced it myself. Which does not mean I am correct.

He always tells what is to happen. Disciples were under training

Again I did say IMHO.

eddif

 

[Hopeful]

The only reason I say that they only serve as a sign to unbelievers is because it is written that tongues do NOT serve as a sign to believer. So who else is left other than unbelievers? That is what the verse plainly says.

1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

So I may have added the word "only" but that is the message of truth in that verse.

When I hear a brother speak in tongues, I become a believer that he has converted to Christianity and has the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Prior to hearing the proof in him...not so much.

 

[eddif]

When I hear a brother speak in tongues, I become a believer that he has converted to Christianity and has the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Prior to hearing the proof in him...not so much.

Acts 2:11 kjv. Jews at Pentecost
11. Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Acts 10:46 kjv Gentiles at House of Cornelius.
46. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

The sign was prophecy. Tongues plus interpretation.

The wonderful works magnify God.

eddif

 

[eddif]

1 Corinthians 14:5 kjv
5. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

So the lower gift is tongues. Not a bad way to talk to yourself and God.

1 Corinthians 14:39 kjv
39. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Jude 1:20 kjv
20. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Just a few verses that may help.
eddif

 

[Golgotha]

For Christians:
Prophecy is the ultimate plan for Christians. It can take place in the language of the hearer. It can take place as tongues with interpretation into the language of the hearer. Tongues with interpretation equals prophecy (speaking forth the words, message of God). It often reveals the inner thoughts of people. Subjects that need to be addressed.

But that is not tongues for private use for why God's gift of tongues can never be.

For unbelievers:
Gibberish is all unbelievers want. No direction in understanding about God or what God desires is wanted. Chaos is the desired status an unbeliever wants. No desire to hear from God. So when a person makes no sense whatsoever they throw up their hands and rejoice ( he got it he got it). Got what? Absolutely nothing to do with direction toward a Christian God. In fact the opposition of God is desired. Nonsense is treasured. A pagan wants to do whatever he wants to do without interruption. To be led astray by demons is their desire,

eddif

Tongues are a sign for unbelievers in hearing the wonderful works of God in their native tongue. This happened on the day of Pentecost as they understood what they were saying. But because some disciples were speaking in tongues in a specific language to a foreigner that would understand it, another foreigner standing nearby may not for why even the Jews of that area would think or accuse the disciples of being drunk.

Acts 2:1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

So do apply the above scripture to this below in how tongues are to serve as a sign to unbelievers and not as a sign to believers at all.

Paul gave the bottom line on what the real God's gift of tongues here.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Yet tongues for private use, as supposedly gained by another baptism with the Holy Ghost, are using that tongue as a sign or proof of having received that other baptism with the Holy Ghost. So something is not right Biblically for already saved believers to use that tongue as a sign to themselves that they had received this other baptism

The only conclusion that can be had is that this other calling is not of Him and thus apostasy, and that includes that kind of tongues for private use that it brings.

 

[Golgotha]

When I hear a brother speak in tongues, I become a believer that he has converted to Christianity and has the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Prior to hearing the proof in him...not so much.

If that brother speak in tongues and another interpret or a foreigner understood him, I would believe that brother has the real God's gift of tongues.

But when a brother insists that tongues can also be for private use, he is still my brother, but that supernatural tongue as gained by another filling of the Holy Spirit, is not of Him at all and that includes that other apostate calling of seeking another baptism with the holy Ghost with evidence of tongues as not of Him either for how he had gained that tongue for private use & why that tongue never comes with interpretation.

Indeed, some believe interpretating tongues is by getting the gist or feel of what is being said in that gibberish nonsense as Joyce Meyers has testified but they are not really interpreting that tongue at all for why it is just gibberish nonsense and not any language of men at all.

Since the purpose of the gifts of the spirit & the manifestations of them is to profit the body of Christ for why tongues will come with interpretation in the assembly to profit the body withal, then tongues can never be for private use. ( and they have by citing all the benefits for private use that one wonders why they go to the assembly at all as if they need no other body when they can do all those things and yet without interpretation to never understand what is going on with that tongue ? )

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal....

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

The verses above proves why tongues can never be for private use in the assembly or individually anywhere when that tongue speaker needs someone to interpret that tongue so he can understand it for that tongue to be fruitful to himself.

So that is why believers re not to believe every spirit but test them by knowing He is in us so that spirit that comes over us later after salvation, is not the Holy Spirit ( 1 John 4:1-4 ) for why they are even to test the tongues as well because the world's supernatural tongue is just gibberish nonsense. ( 1 John 4:5-6 & Isaiah 8:19 )

 

[eddif]

The only conclusion that can be had is that this other calling is not of Him and thus apostasy, and that includes that kind of tongues for private use that it brings.

So.
Which calling is correct?
Which calling is heresy?

 

[Golgotha]

So.
Which calling is correct?

When we come to & believe in Jesus Christ at the calling of the gospel, we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ for when that born again of the Spirit happens.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.... 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Which calling is heresy?

When they preach another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or a continual supernatural filling of the Holy Spirit; that is preaching another calling hence another Jesus, another spirit, another gospel to receive which there isn't any.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Do they not say the Holy Spirit is in them since salvation and yet they seek to receive Him again as if He is not? Be the same as seeking to receive Jeus Christ again, right?

A reminder of our faith again below.

Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Thus no more filling of the Spirit is required for we have always been Spirit-filled since salvation after having come to & believed in Jesus Christ.

 

[eddif]

And also, Holy Spirit can fall on unbelievers too.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

Acts 10:44-45

Another difference between Holy Spirit "on" and being indwelled by Holy Spirit. It just points to certain gifts needing an outpouring correct?

The folks that Peter is talking to are not exactly unbelievers, we are talking about Gentiles who are seeking after God.

The Jews speak well of them. An angel makes a visit to tell who can give them understanding. Peter had 3 visions about clean and unclean. The information will come to them in a language they understand. Prophecy will be what they need. The gospel is presented, they believe.

Then they get the lowest spiritual gift. Tongues but with praise of God. So really they do not just get tongues they get prophesy. They magnify God.

Let me try:
5. Witness of Jesus (prophesy)
4. Believer in Jesus
3. Repenter
2. Seeker
1. Unbeliever

When Cornelius fell down before Peter that IMHO would make him about a 2 1/2.

As Peter preached they became 4s and suddenly 5s.

To take an unbeliever to belief they must understand.
………

1 Corinthians 14:22
22. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

If it does not make sense, say I do not get it again, and again till we find common ground. Tradition almost makes it impossible to understand.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Matthew 9:6 kjv
6. But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Is this the scripture to show that spiritual gifts are supportive of the salvation in Christ Jesus.

Kind of hard to see salvation. And I think signs are a weak way to promote belief.
However in some cases it seems Jesus would go to a physical example to move folks on to salvation.

I do not think spiritual gifts are on as high a level as II once did.
But
Jesus used them. so if the gift of prophecy will show God is around then they are part and parcel with salvation. Spiritual gifts support believing in Jesus, and if Jesus said Receive power then I promote power.

eddif

 

[hawkman]

Are you starting to grasp that praying in tongues is speaking in tongues ? It is the same operation in the believer when he speaks in tongues in prayer or to the church . The Holy Ghost will supply the words for the situation that being prayer or a message to the church .

What you missed that I said , " In the believer " .

It is not the same operation when praying in tongues is never interpreted in the church.

It is the same manifestation of the Holy Ghost in the believer that allows him to speak in tongues no matter where he is !

What is being misread is here:

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Paul is the one that is praying; not the Holy Spirit. While Paul is speaking in tongues, he prays that someone else will interpret. Why? Reread verse 12.

Verse 14 , " For if I pray in an unknown tongue " this is Paul talking about praying as the Holy Ghost gives the utterance .
If it is not through the Holy Ghost that Paul is praying , what are you trying to say here ?
That it is demonic ? It plainly says "unknown tongue " .

Paul is explaining here unless someone else interpret that tongue being manifested thru him by the Holy Ghost, it is fruitless to himself as a tongue speaker until it is interpreted. That is why he prays for the understanding.

Again you are twisting the verse . It does NOT say fruitless to himself , but what does it say ? It says in verse 14 " my understanding is unfruitful " , now read about the FRUITFUL part of praying in tongues in this next verse .
1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
Edify , to build up to empower one for greater service to God !

If that brother speak in tongues and another interpret or a foreigner understood him, I would believe that brother has the real God's gift of tongues.

If you saw this brother speak in tongues in church and you saw that it was a real gift of tongues and then days later you visited him at home . You knocked on his door and you are greeted by his wife , his wife tells you your friend is in his study with the door shut but the wife tells you to open the door and go on in the study .
When you open the door you find your friend praying in tongues .

You know your friend has the real gift of tongues . Do you now tell him he is wrong to pray in tongues ?

 

[Hidden In Him]

When we come to & believe in Jesus Christ at the calling of the gospel, we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ for when that born again of the Spirit happens.

Golgotha, I am unfortunately too tied up to stay with our conversations lately, but while there are many things I could say about this entire post, let me at least encourage you with something: I both speak in tongues and prophesy, but neither of those things make my salvation secure. My salvation is tied to my continued relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, and staying in His word and in fellowship with Him; the spiritual gifts are merely extensions of that. So don't let the issue of outpourings or operating in spiritual gifts ever make you feel that you are unsaved, or not on your way to Heaven. That would never be anything I or any Charismatic I know would ever argue.

God bless, and Lord willing we will talk again.
Your friend,
Hidden In Him

 

[eddif]

I want us to all take note on the good example of how
correction and the fear of GOD ought to be put into those who do err .
Look at the response of peter . he did not down play the deadly danger
of sin which that man was in . He said very firm and very grave
what needed to be told to that man . And notice it actually did work
the man got scared and asked peter to pray for him .
Correction is a dire necessity . It works good unto the soul
of the one who hears and recieves the correction .
The problem with today is that for quite some time
due to seeker friendly and deadly tactics , correction was replaced
with the word JUDGE NOT . And man did the leaven fill up the churches
very fast . Its good that we really get dug into those pure reminders
in that bible so as we can truly take care of the church .

I really am not making a comment about your post.

What I want to do is invite you to comment on the posts I make.

Feel free to correct away if needed.

Mississippi redneck
eddif