Always Spirit-Filled Or A Leaky Vessel?

[Golgotha]

John7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Notice in the last verse we have " Spirit " and then we have "Holy Ghost " that makes two . #1 Born again and later filled with the #2 Holy Ghost .

Have you applied John 6:35 mentioned earlier to John 7:37-38?

Jesus was not glorified yet as in, He has not ascended into Heaven yet.

Jesus explained to Nicodemus for when & how the born again of the Spirit would take place which is after His ascension which is after His crucifixion for any one that believes in Him is when one is born again of the Spirit and have eternal life. John 3:7-16

So His disciples were not saved yet until Jesus was glorified by having ascended to Heaven to be with the Father for that born again of the Spirit to happen for all believers.

That was why He told His disciples to tarry in Jerusalem and that was for their born again of the Spirit moment at their salvation.

Are you not counted among those who defend tongues ? Think about it .

I defend the real God's gift of tongues which is of other men's lips to speak unto the people 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 but not tongues for private use gained by that apostate calling of seeking another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues for why that tongue cannot be interpreted because it is not of Him at all.

 

[Golgotha]

Good morning, Golgotha.

Good morning, Hidden In Him

Not sure I'm following you. I do agree we are to walk in the fruit of the Spirit rather than the works of the flesh, but operating in the gifts of the Spirit is a different matter, yes? Someone walking in the fruit of the Spirit does not guarantee that they will operate in the gift of prophecy, unless one is redefining prophecy as merely teaching the word of God, but I don't subscribe to that redefinition.

Heresy is a work of the flesh and I believe this another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues is an apostate calling ignoring Paul's warnings here.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Believers experience a supernatural phenomenon apart from salvation and so they want to believe it is of God but John said not to believe every spirit but test them and the tongues they bring because there is a pagan supernatural tongue in the world that is just gibberish nonsense and not a foreign language of men at all; 1 John 4:1-6 Isaiah 8:19

Please forgive me here as I have not had time to read through this thread. Maybe I can find the time today (though I may not be able to), but catch me up on what your main contentions are that caused Sister to tag me for this thread. She mentioned something about you don't believe tongues is a prayer language and that there is no re-filling, is that correct?

Correct.

Out of curiosity, do you speak in tongues yourself?

If you mean by the real God's gift of tongues? 1 Corinthians 14:20-22 No. If you mean by tongues for private use, I do not believe that is God's gift of tongues at all, and no, I do not have that either.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

In Christ's Love,
Golgotha

 

[Hidden In Him]

the idea that a believer needs to seek a continual filling of the Holy Spirit and or power or to have a continual anointing isn't valid. This verse below is about remaining sober as opposed to getting drunk with wine wherein there is excess.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Ok. Thanks for the reply. I managed to read through most of the first page. Maybe someone has brought this up, maybe not, but you quoted Ephesians 5:18 above in your OP, so let me ask you this:

If Paul was simply stating here that they should not be drunk with wine but abide in the Spirit they had already been filled with, why did he use the Present Indicative Middle, which asserts something needs to be occurring while the speaker is making the statement? Present Indicative describes contemporaneous action, which makes "be filled with the Spirit" something Paul wanted them to be doing at the time he was writing the letter.

 

[Golgotha]

Ok. Thanks for the reply. I managed to read through most of the first page. Maybe someone has brought this up, maybe not, but you quoted Ephesians 5:18 above in your OP, so let me ask you this:

If Paul was simply stating here that they should not be drunk with wine but abide in the Spirit they had already been filled with, why did he use the Present Indicative Middle, which asserts something needs to be occurring while the speaker is making the statement? Present Indicative describes contemporaneous action, which makes "be filled with the Spirit" something Paul wanted them to be doing at the time he was writing the letter.

One can get lost in translation to English for why we need wisdom from the Lord.

If the first part of the verse did not exist, then one could fathom it as meaning what you say, but in context, by not sowing to that work of the flesh, we are being what? We are filled with the Spirit.

There are other verses in the Bible calling us to be sober and it does not require seeking a filling of the Spirit to do that and so that is all what that Ephesians 5:18 is saying as opposing sowing to drunkenness by excess of wine.

1 Thessalonians 5:5-8 & 1 Peter 5:8

 

[Golgotha]

And Golgotha I didn't mean the parable to bump your thread off track. This is a good read though and does relate in the topic of being Spirit filled/abiding in the Spirit.

I am okay with it. Thanks.

 

[Golgotha]

Yes it does : )

Here you go. Let me know if you have any questions. I love discussing the Parables. Very similar to interpreting dreams and visions, in that both use a great deal of symbolism that needs to be examined and interpreted acutely, with an eye for detail.

Bible Study - Parable of the Ten Virgins

The following is my teaching on the Parable of the Ten Virgins. It is interpreted from a distinctly Charismatic point of view, as the oil of the Holy Spirit plays a prominent role in it. It is also interpreted in light of what the other parables in Matthew 24 and 25 teach that surround it, but...

christianforums.net

The following is my teaching on the Parable of the Ten Virgins. It is interpreted from a distinctly Charismatic point of view, as the oil of the Holy Spirit plays a prominent role in it. It is also interpreted in light of what the other parables in Matthew 24 and 25 teach that surround it, but to treat those in the same context would require another thread.

Blessings to all in advance who read and/or participate in conversation on this thread,
Hidden In Him

One should prove all things by Jesus Christ as you noted this was given by a Charismatic viewpoint. It should be considered by His viewpoint rather than a church's.

__________________

Then the kingdom of heaven will be likened unto ten virgins who, having taken their lamps, went forth to the meeting of the bridegroom. But five were foolish and five were wise. For the foolish, having taken their lamps, did not take oil with them. But the wise took oil in jars along with their lamps. And with the bridegroom delaying, they all became drowsy and were sleeping. At midnight there was a cry: "Behold, the bridegroom! Go forth to meet him!" Then all the virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. The foolish said to the wise, "Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out." But the wise answered saying, "No, lest there not be enough for us and you. Instead, go to those who sell and buy it for yourselves." But while they were on their way to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast, and the door was shut. And afterwards, the remaining virgins also came, saying, "Lord, Lord, open unto us!" But he, having answered, said, "Truly, I say unto you, I do not know you." Keep watch, therefore, for you do not know the day nor the hour. (Matthew 25:1-13)
Click to expand...

Hopeful Sister hawkman

I see the ten virgins as in His kingdom of Heaven.

The five that were wise, had their oil with them and were filled when the Bridegroom had arrived.

But five were foolish in that they had to go out to the market to get the oil to be filled.

So that is why I say we have been always Spirit-filled since salvation but those that went astray thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation, are considered as out to the market for why they were not ready as abiding in Him to go.

I believe Revelation 2:18-25 is applicable to calling those that have gone astray to repent of this spiritual fornication or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation.

It also address those saints that do not know that false doctrine nor the depths of Satan for which they speak ( which I discern as tongues for private use ( Isaiah 8:19 & 1 Timothy 4:1-2 ) in that city, to hold fast till He comes.

So that is my understanding of what Jesus is warning about as this also testify to those left behind that they are still in His kingdom but shut out from the Marriage Supper with the Bridegroom when you consider the meaning of the first verse.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If the first part of the verse did not exist, then one could fathom it as meaning what you say, but in context, by not sowing to that work of the flesh, we are being what? We are filled with the Spirit.

But you appear to be changing the tenses in the Greek. You are saying that not getting drunk with wine is evidence of having been filled with the Spirit. But the Greek here states specifically that he was referring to something needing to happen in present tense, namely that they "be filled with the Spirit."

There are other verses in the Bible calling us to be sober and it does not require seeking a filling of the Spirit to do that

But the infilling of the Spirit is for much more than departing from sin. In Acts, the stated purpose is rather to be filled with supernatural power by to engage in evangelism, whereby the word is confirmed with signs and wonders following:

And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:7-8)

 

[Hidden In Him]

One should prove all things by Jesus Christ as you noted this was given by a Charismatic viewpoint. It should be considered by His viewpoint rather than a church's.

No, no. I mean that I am Charismatic, so I interpret from a Charismatic perspective. But the vast majority of what I teach I learned from no man. I gave myself to letting the Holy Spirit be my Teacher more than two decades ago. I wasn't raised Christian, and was only a member of a Baptist Church and an Assembly Of God Church for very short times respectively. My teachings are my own. For instance, that interpretation of the Parable of the Ten Virgins is not something you will find elsewhere. It's not an easy Parable to interpret.

I see the ten virgins as in His kingdom of Heaven.

The five that were wise, had their oil with them and were filled when the Bridegroom had arrived.

But five were foolish in that they had to go out to the market to get the oil to be filled.

So that is why I say we have been always Spirit-filled since salvation but those that went astray thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation, are considered as out to the market for why they were not ready as abiding in Him to go.

I believe Revelation 2:18-25 is applicable to calling those that have gone astray to repent of this spiritual fornication or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation.

It also address those saints that do not know that false doctrine nor the depths of Satan for which they speak ( which I discern as tongues for private use ( Isaiah 8:19 & 1 Timothy 4:1-2 ) in that city, to hold fast till He comes.

So that is my understanding of what Jesus is warning about as this also testify to those left behind that they are still in His kingdom but shut out from the Marriage Supper with the Bridegroom when you consider the meaning of the first verse.

I'm going to transfer this to my thread so we can discuss it. I believe there are some inconsistencies in your interpretation, but the better place to discuss them would be where the Parable is already posted in full and is the specific subject of the thread.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'm going to transfer this to my thread so we can discuss it. I believe there are some inconsistencies in your interpretation, but the better place to discuss them would be where the Parable is already posted in full and is the specific subject of the thread.

Oh, you just did it for me, LoL. Very good.

 

[Golgotha]

But you appear to be changing the tenses in the Greek. You are saying that not getting drunk with wine is evidence of having been filled with the Spirit. But the Greek here states specifically that he was referring to something needing to happen in present tense, namely that they "be filled with the Spirit."

Paul is addressing already saved believers about not being drunk with wine where there is excess, but remain filled with the Spirit as in keep the fruit of temperance which is self control thus be sober.

But the infilling of the Spirit is for much more than departing from sin. In Acts, the stated purpose is rather to be filled with supernatural power by to engage in evangelism, whereby the word is confirmed with signs and wonders following:

And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:7-8)

if you apply Acts 1:7-8 to below, you may see Jesus was talking about His disciples' born again of the Spirit moment at Pentecost as promised to be sent from the Father.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So that was what Jesus talking about in Acts 1:7-8 for why they had to wait for the promise from the Father when He was no longer present with them but with the Father in Heaven. Pentecost was when His disciples were saved.

Jesus had explained this to Nicodemus on how and when one is born again of the Spirit and that is after His ascension which was after His crucifixion for any who believe in Him will be born again of the Spirit and thus have eternal life.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So His disciples were saved at Pentecost as promised for all those that believe in Jesus Christ as they had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ rather than by sight of Jesus Christ, so their testimony of their salvation moment is the same as every other believer that believed in Him that got saved since Pentecost.

 

[Hidden In Him]

but remain filled with the Spirit

But again, you are changing the tense in the Greek. The text clearly reads "be filled," not "remain filled."

So His disciples were saved at Pentecost as promised for all those that believe in Jesus Christ as they had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ rather than by sight of Jesus Christ, so their testimony of their salvation moment is the same as every other believer that believed in Him that got saved since Pentecost.

Ok, this is where we would differ significantly. You mention a "salvation moment" here, suggesting that the disciples were not saved until after Pentecost. I don't know that this is a very defensible position. The scripture says that we are born again from incorruptible seed, being the word of God. One would have to argue that the disciples had not yet received the word of God in order for them not to have been saved yet until Pentecost. Is this what you are contending for?

 

[Golgotha]

But again, you are changing the tense in the Greek. The text clearly reads "be filled," not "remain filled."


Ok, this is where we would differ significantly. You mention a "salvation moment" here, suggesting that the disciples were not saved until after Pentecost. I don't know that this is a very defensible position. The scripture says that we are born again from incorruptible seed, being the word of God. One would have to argue that the disciples had not yet received the word of God in order for them not to have been saved yet until Pentecost. Is this what you are contending for?

Jesus had explained this to Nicodemus on how and when one is born again of the Spirit and that is after His ascension which was after His crucifixion for any who believe in Him will be born again of the Spirit and thus have eternal life.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So His disciples were saved at Pentecost as promised for all those that believe in Jesus Christ as they had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ rather than by sight of Jesus Christ, so their testimony of their salvation moment is the same as every other believer that believed in Him that got saved since Pentecost.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So His disciples were saved at Pentecost as promised for all those that believe in Jesus Christ as they had received the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ rather than by sight of Jesus Christ, so their testimony of their salvation moment is the same as every other believer that believed in Him that got saved since Pentecost.

No, no. To take this position is to say that the vast majority of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ today are not saved, because the vast majority have not received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. But this is not so. We are saved by faith; more specifically through faith in the word of God, which when planted within us springs up into Eternal Life.

Again, we are born of incorruptible seed through the word of God, which lives and abides forever. Jesus' teaching to Nicodemus was to instruct him that there was coming an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which later began at Pentecost, and thereafter this became the common experience of New Testament believers. But this was before the church began dividing the two experiences up. Today the outpouring has been divorced from receiving of the word, which is short-changing of the original presentation of the gospel. But we are ultimately not born through the outpouring, we are born of incorruptible seed, and those who are only born of the word are nevertheless saved, just as those baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in Samaria were, who as of yet had not received the outpouring. Because the outpouring has been divorced from the entire experience, we now have to rightly divide on this issue, but salvation does not come through the outpouring but by faith, and more specifically by placing faith in the word of God.

 

[Sister]

Be good. Be sure to put an @ next to our member's name so we can know when the thread has been made.

Thank you.

I did it popped up like that. It should have tagged you

 

[Sister]

Good morning, Hidden In Him

Heresy is a work of the flesh and I believe this another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues is an apostate calling ignoring Paul's warnings here.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Believers experience a supernatural phenomenon apart from salvation and so they want to believe it is of God but John said not to believe every spirit but test them and the tongues they bring because there is a pagan supernatural tongue in the world that is just gibberish nonsense and not a foreign language of men at all; 1 John 4:1-6 Isaiah 8:19

Correct.

If you mean by the real God's gift of tongues? 1 Corinthians 14:20-22 No. If you mean by tongues for private use, I do not believe that is God's gift of tongues at all, and no, I do not have that either.

In Christ's Love,
Golgotha

Using tongues as a private prayer language is Biblical, but even if it was not, you have been teaching false doctrines unintentionally. This doesn't make you an apostate. You are not preaching a different Jesus. You are just wrong in your interpretations. Now if you want to talk about scriptures to disprove tongues as a private prayer language, we can talk about that. The burden of that proof rests with you since you brought up the conversation to disprove that. But be sure that you are making correct accusations then passing judgement with scriptures taken out of context.

 

[hawkman]

Have you applied John 6:35 mentioned earlier to John 7:37-38?

Jesus was not glorified yet as in, He has not ascended into Heaven yet.

Jesus explained to Nicodemus for when & how the born again of the Spirit would take place which is after His ascension which is after His crucifixion for any one that believes in Him is when one is born again of the Spirit and have eternal life. John 3:7-16

So His disciples were not saved yet until Jesus was glorified by having ascended to Heaven to be with the Father for that born again of the Spirit to happen for all believers.

That was why He told His disciples to tarry in Jerusalem and that was for their born again of the Spirit moment at their salvation.

I defend the real God's gift of tongues which is of other men's lips to speak unto the people 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 but not tongues for private use gained by that apostate calling of seeking another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues for why that tongue cannot be interpreted because it is not of Him at all.

Well ok , I am entering into a conversation I have never had with another Christian .

So His disciples were not saved yet until Jesus was glorified by having ascended to Heaven to be with the Father for that born again of the Spirit to happen for all believers.

That was why He told His disciples to tarry in Jerusalem and that was for their born again of the Spirit moment at their salvation.

Golgotha , I know you are good at posting verses from the Bible but I do not know of any verses that support the above statements . But I guess you can try .

 

[hawkman]

I defend the real God's gift of tongues which is of other men's lips to speak unto the people 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 but not tongues for private use gained by that apostate calling of seeking another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues for why that tongue cannot be interpreted because it is not of Him at all.

It is almost impossible to explain what it is like to speak or pray in tongues as the Holy Ghost gives the utterance . If you watch this video it could help .

 

[Sister]

It is almost impossible to explain what it is like to speak or pray in tongues as the Holy Ghost gives the utterance . If you watch this video it could help .

Ah man, says video unavailable

 

[hawkman]

Ah man, says video unavailable

Fixed it ! The hair stands up on the back of my neck when the lady is praying in tongues at the @ the 5:50 mark .

 

[Golgotha]

No, no. To take this position is to say that the vast majority of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ today are not saved, because the vast majority have not received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. But this is not so. We are saved by faith; more specifically through faith in the word of God, which when planted within us springs up into Eternal Life.

Sister & hawkman

If the disciples were saved before Pentecost, then what happened in Matthew 10:1-20 when this temporary indwelling was given even to Judas Iscariot whom was not even a believer but a traitor per John 6:63-71? Regardless, Jesus had explained when and how the born again of the Spirit was to occur after His ascension which was after His crucifixion for ALL those who believe in Him ( John 3:7-16 ), then that has to include His disciples too as He said so to His disciples as the forever indwelling holy Ghost would be given to them from the Father when Jesus was no longer present with them but had gone to the Father above in John 14:1-3 John 14:16-17 & John 14:25-26.

Again, we are born of incorruptible seed through the word of God, which lives and abides forever. Jesus' teaching to Nicodemus was to instruct him that there was coming an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which later began at Pentecost, and thereafter this became the common experience of New Testament believers. But this was before the church began dividing the two experiences up. Today the outpouring has been divorced from receiving of the word, which is short-changing of the original presentation of the gospel. But we are ultimately not born through the outpouring, we are born of incorruptible seed, and those who are only born of the word are nevertheless saved, just as those baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in Samaria were, who as of yet had not received the outpouring. Because the outpouring has been divorced from the entire experience, we now have to rightly divide on this issue, but salvation does not come through the outpouring but by faith, and more specifically by placing faith in the word of God.

Since no one can tell when one is born again of the Spirit, how did Luke know and why had he written that they never had the Holy Spirit but they were just water baptized in His name unless they never had that born again of the Spirit moment?