dirtfarmer
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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AN IMPORTANT END-TIME MESSAGE TO THE SAINTS
- Thread starter TLSITD
- Start date
Douglas Summers
Member
Agreed.
TLSITD
Member
All three points are correct; but your conclusion/supposition that Christians who believe the pre-Tribulation rapture false teaching are going to believe that the antichrist is God because they are confused/deceived about the timing of Christ's return is not. They will not take the mark or worship the image of the beast because they believe the antichrist is really Jesus, but because they don't want to suffer or die for not doing so.
That said, believing the pre-trib rapture teaching is certainly not helpful to them in terms of their preparing mentally and spiritually for the time ahead, and holding onto this belief will make the reality devastating to them when what they are expecting to happen doesn't. It may lead them to question whether everything they've believed about God and about what the Bible teaches was a lie. And it will probably induce panic and desperation for them, which will make it that much more likely that they will take the mark.
Douglas Summers
Member
Hi dirtfarmer, I thought I would say what I understand it means, The first resurrection is not a one time event...the first resurrection happens over time, each in it's own order (Matt. 27:51-53 a partial resurrection of the OT saints) (1 Thes. 4:13-18; 5:1-11 Church) (Rev. 7: 9-17; Rev. 20:4 Tribulation saints) (Rev. 20:5-6 millennial saints) (Rev. 20:11-15 second resurrection of Judgment ,Great White Throne). The Church will be Judging with Christ in this Judgment.
civilwarbuff
Member
Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Agreed. Sounds to me like the Church will not be deceived......
Here we disagree. I have never once heard any who believe in a pre-trib rapture voice anything like your comments. If they are believers they are busy doing God's work and will let His will work as He wills it. Whether a person believes in a rapture or not does not affect their salvation and to state that pre-tribbers will fall away if it does not happen is strictly conjecture on your part and should be left off the table of discussion.
Douglas Summers
Member
TLSITD
Member
Actually, the reason a Christian will or will not fall away during that time has to do with his or her heart toward God, not whether he or she believes in a pre-trib rapture or not. Not believing in a pre-trib rapture does not necessarily mean that one has a good conscience toward Jesus; (and I am not talking about the person being saved or not, but what he or she is doing in his or her walk with the Lord). Rebellious Christians who do not repent will be the ones who fall away from Christ during the Tribulation (as the original message declares), whether they believe in a post-trib rapture or pre-trib one. Therefore the warning is for the saints who need to do so to wash their robes.
dirtfarmer
Member
hello Douglas Summers, dirtfarmer here
It is my understanding that the phrases," day of the Lord" and "Lord's day" refers to judgment, not the day that we worship, which is referred to as the first day of the week or the eighth day.
It is my belief that 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 is the extended period from the rapture to the setting up of the earthly kingdom. From v 9 I do not believe that the Church will go into or through the tribulation: " For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
ezrider
Member
The falling away is a falling away from the faith of Christ back to having faith in the works of the Law. Repentance is a WORK of the LAW.
2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
TLSITD
Member
Actually, it's a falling away of true Christians from the commandments and teachings of the New Testament, the doctrine of Christianity---which apostasy can be seen all around us, in various forms. Insistence upon keeping the law of Moses is only one form of apostasy.
He himself is yet to be in Jerusalem even though certain events in Jerusalem are making ready for him, but will be there taking his seat as all is in Gods timing and not ours.
ezrider
Member
Yes, but do you see the apostasy in that goes on here, especially in the CE&P forum where the people are filled with the spirit of the accuser? Talk about the works of Satan.
Many Christians will indeed take the mark rather than go hungry or suffer and die.
There will also be some who will believe the antichrist is Jesus.
JLB
When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the judgement seat of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God. The goats being those who are not Gods will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.
Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection and a second death being that of the lake of fire. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.
Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection and a second death being that of the lake of fire. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.
Douglas Summers
Member
Yes, I agree that is what the Scriptures refer to and agree with your understanding of 1 Thessalonians 5: 1-11.
Thanks.
The 1000 years in Revelation 20 is literal, and is the Seventh prophetic day of rest that remains for His people. The True Sabbath that the weekly Sabbath points to.
There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. Hebrews 4:9
God the Father and His Son have been working for the last 6000 years and will rest on this Sabbath for 1000 years with their people.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Peter 3:8
JLB
susancramer
Member
My end has arrived even before it began and I do not know why?
TLSITD
Member
The "Enigma" Of The Thousand Years Explained.
Proof that the thousand years come before the Tribulation:
12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. (Revelation 16:12-14 ESV)
This is the same event described in Revelation 20:7,8: 7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
The battle of Armegeddon takes place on the day Jesus returns: 19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. 20And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. (Rev 19:19,20 ESV)
So when is Jesus going to defeat the antichrist in the battle of Armegeddon? On the day of His coming. (See 2 Thessalonians 2:8.) He's not going to defeat the antichrist twice. So Revelation 19 and 2 Thessalonians 2 refer to the same event on the same day.
And when will Satan be released to deceive the nations and prepare them for the battle of Armegeddon?
When the thousand years are ended. (Revelation 20:7,8)
Revelation 16:12-16, 19:11-21, and 20:7-10 all refer to the same battle. The beast and the false prophet are captured and destroyed first, then Satan. We know this takes place on the same day because the antichrist is defeated at the coming of Christ, and we know the other events of the last day that will take place when Christ returns, with His angels.
There's not going to be a thousand year reign of saints on this earth, either before or after the Tribulation. If it occurs before, it would require Christ and the saints to return to earth to reign for a thousand years, then go back up to heaven for the duration of the Tribulation when Satan is released, then return a second time for the resurrection of the dead and the rapture of the living saints on the last day. (That's nonsense, according to the Scriptures.)
Nor can the thousand years take place after the Tribulation, because the Tribulation won't begin until Satan is released from the bottomless pit, which is after the thousand year reign of the saints. Then he must be released for "a short time" (Revelation 20:3). That "short time", also mentioned in Revelation 12:12, is the Tribulation---originally seven years, shortened to approximately three and a half years by God for the sake of the elect (the saints).
At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus returns (Matthew 24:29-31), defeats the antichrist and Satan, the dead are raised, the world is destroyed, the judgment takes place, the new heaven and earth are created, and the saints possess the kingdom forever. (Not for a thousand years.)
People who are trying to fit a thousand year earthly reign of the saints into the chronology of the Revelation and other end-time scriptures have to contort and misinterpret them to do so. But as you can see from what I provided above, it's impossible to do. It doesn't fit before, during, or after the Tribulation, as an earthly reign. Logic, and comparing the scriptures that speak of the same events, with the help of the Holy Spirit, debunks the erroneous teaching of an earthly thousand year reign of the saints with Christ.
The thousand year reign can only take place in heaven. And it has been taking place there for nearly a thousand years. Satan is about to be released from his prison, and after making war with his demons against the holy angels in heaven, he will be cast down to earth and enter the person of the antichrist, and begin to persecute Christians; and the Tribulation will begin.
12Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time... 17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
(Revelation 12:13,14,17 ESV)
As for the first and second resurrections mentioned in Revelation chapter 20:
4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4-6 ESV)
These scriptures can be correctly understood by comparing them with other scriptures that clarify the timing and meaning of what is described in them. "They came to life" (verse 4) refers to spiritual rebirth, not being bodily resurrected. We know this because we know the timing of the bodily resurrection of the dead, of which there is only one---of both the righteous and the unrighteous---on the last day of the Tribulation, when Jesus returns; and because verse 5 and 6 explain that "they came to life" refers to the "first resurrection", which is the resurrection that saves from the lake of fire---being born again.
There are not two physical resurrections; so what verse 5 is speaking about ("the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended") is the last day when the dead are bodily raised. The saints who are reigning with Christ in heaven are saints who have died, obviously. But they have eternal life. And that is what taking part in the "first resurrection" means---that that they were raised to life in Christ.
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.d Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. (John 11:25,26 ESV)
"The rest" of those who have physically died (both righteous and unrighteous), (Rev 20:5), will be bodily resurrected on the last day when Jesus returns, at the one resurrection of the dead.
Here is an explanation of the two resurrections Revelation 20 mentions:
25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. (This is spiritual resurrection; being born again: the first resurrection.) 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (This is the physical resurrection of the dead on the day Jesus returns: the second resurrection.) (John 5:25-29 ESV)
The saints in heaven haven't taken the mark of the beast or worshiped his image (Rev 20:4), because those things haven't happened yet. (See Revelation 3:10 for example). Some of these saints were martyred by beheading. They conquered Satan, the dragon---not the antichrist---by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death (Rev 12:11).
We (Christians who will be going through the Tribulation) are given these saints for an example to follow, that we should conquer the dragon, Satan (who will be indwelling the person of the antichrist), by laying our own lives down for Jesus, if necessary, as these saints in heaven have done. (See also Revelation 6:9-11).
Proof that the thousand years come before the Tribulation:
12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. (Revelation 16:12-14 ESV)
This is the same event described in Revelation 20:7,8: 7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
The battle of Armegeddon takes place on the day Jesus returns: 19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. 20And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. (Rev 19:19,20 ESV)
So when is Jesus going to defeat the antichrist in the battle of Armegeddon? On the day of His coming. (See 2 Thessalonians 2:8.) He's not going to defeat the antichrist twice. So Revelation 19 and 2 Thessalonians 2 refer to the same event on the same day.
And when will Satan be released to deceive the nations and prepare them for the battle of Armegeddon?
When the thousand years are ended. (Revelation 20:7,8)
Revelation 16:12-16, 19:11-21, and 20:7-10 all refer to the same battle. The beast and the false prophet are captured and destroyed first, then Satan. We know this takes place on the same day because the antichrist is defeated at the coming of Christ, and we know the other events of the last day that will take place when Christ returns, with His angels.
There's not going to be a thousand year reign of saints on this earth, either before or after the Tribulation. If it occurs before, it would require Christ and the saints to return to earth to reign for a thousand years, then go back up to heaven for the duration of the Tribulation when Satan is released, then return a second time for the resurrection of the dead and the rapture of the living saints on the last day. (That's nonsense, according to the Scriptures.)
Nor can the thousand years take place after the Tribulation, because the Tribulation won't begin until Satan is released from the bottomless pit, which is after the thousand year reign of the saints. Then he must be released for "a short time" (Revelation 20:3). That "short time", also mentioned in Revelation 12:12, is the Tribulation---originally seven years, shortened to approximately three and a half years by God for the sake of the elect (the saints).
At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus returns (Matthew 24:29-31), defeats the antichrist and Satan, the dead are raised, the world is destroyed, the judgment takes place, the new heaven and earth are created, and the saints possess the kingdom forever. (Not for a thousand years.)
People who are trying to fit a thousand year earthly reign of the saints into the chronology of the Revelation and other end-time scriptures have to contort and misinterpret them to do so. But as you can see from what I provided above, it's impossible to do. It doesn't fit before, during, or after the Tribulation, as an earthly reign. Logic, and comparing the scriptures that speak of the same events, with the help of the Holy Spirit, debunks the erroneous teaching of an earthly thousand year reign of the saints with Christ.
The thousand year reign can only take place in heaven. And it has been taking place there for nearly a thousand years. Satan is about to be released from his prison, and after making war with his demons against the holy angels in heaven, he will be cast down to earth and enter the person of the antichrist, and begin to persecute Christians; and the Tribulation will begin.
12Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time... 17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
(Revelation 12:13,14,17 ESV)
As for the first and second resurrections mentioned in Revelation chapter 20:
4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4-6 ESV)
These scriptures can be correctly understood by comparing them with other scriptures that clarify the timing and meaning of what is described in them. "They came to life" (verse 4) refers to spiritual rebirth, not being bodily resurrected. We know this because we know the timing of the bodily resurrection of the dead, of which there is only one---of both the righteous and the unrighteous---on the last day of the Tribulation, when Jesus returns; and because verse 5 and 6 explain that "they came to life" refers to the "first resurrection", which is the resurrection that saves from the lake of fire---being born again.
There are not two physical resurrections; so what verse 5 is speaking about ("the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended") is the last day when the dead are bodily raised. The saints who are reigning with Christ in heaven are saints who have died, obviously. But they have eternal life. And that is what taking part in the "first resurrection" means---that that they were raised to life in Christ.
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.d Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. (John 11:25,26 ESV)
"The rest" of those who have physically died (both righteous and unrighteous), (Rev 20:5), will be bodily resurrected on the last day when Jesus returns, at the one resurrection of the dead.
Here is an explanation of the two resurrections Revelation 20 mentions:
25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. (This is spiritual resurrection; being born again: the first resurrection.) 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (This is the physical resurrection of the dead on the day Jesus returns: the second resurrection.) (John 5:25-29 ESV)
The saints in heaven haven't taken the mark of the beast or worshiped his image (Rev 20:4), because those things haven't happened yet. (See Revelation 3:10 for example). Some of these saints were martyred by beheading. They conquered Satan, the dragon---not the antichrist---by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death (Rev 12:11).
We (Christians who will be going through the Tribulation) are given these saints for an example to follow, that we should conquer the dragon, Satan (who will be indwelling the person of the antichrist), by laying our own lives down for Jesus, if necessary, as these saints in heaven have done. (See also Revelation 6:9-11).
What is being spoken of in Hebrews 4:9 you also have to read from vs.1-11 as it means our rest in Christ will be when we are caught up to Him when He returns. We will then be at rest from all our works here on that were done unto the glory and honor of the Lord. When Satan is bound according to Gods timing he can no longer interfere with Gods children anymore as when he is released and tries to war against the saints he and his army are consumed by the fire God sends down from heaven. Just as God rested from all His works on the seventh day, then so will Jesus rest from all His works with the last work being casting Satan into the lake of fire. This present heaven and earth will be renewed and the New Jerusalem will then be ushered down and we will be with the Lord forever.
Nowhere in scripture does it say it is a literal 1000 years for why would God keep Satan bound that long before letting him loose to cast him into the lake of fire. What will we be doing during a literal 1000 years if we are already raptured (pretrib) up to Him? We are not caught up to Christ until after he cast the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire and will have slain all the kings being the world leaders in every nation that that have always followed after the beast. Rev 19
All this happens on the last day, John 6:40, then comes the one and only resurrection, John 5:28, 29; Mark 13:24-27, and the Great White Throne judgement, Rev 20:11-15. When Christ returns with His angels from heaven, Rev 19, it is only His angels and the spirit/souls of those who have died and asleep in their grave that come back with Him then we are changed according to 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. No one has ever gone up to heaven, but only our breath/soul returns back to God when we physically die, John 3:13; Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7