Reading too much symbolism and such into it, as though there are all sorts of hidden spiritual meanings other than what is plainly, or relatively plainly, said. This leads to all sorts of erroneous interpretation and doctrine.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Angels Do Not Have Sex
- Thread starter Lewis
- Start date
But this has nothing to do with over spiritualizing Scripture.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Missed this one before, sorry. Do you mean Enoch brother? I said in my post that I am not speaking of Enoch but our bible, the book of Amos. As you have probably read, I am indeed going to take a closer look at the Amos scripture that I posted and indeed the entire chapter, because a brother brought it to my attention that I may have mis-interpreted that particular passage. I don't like to be wrong so will do this, just in case.
however, the Amos scripture notwithstanding, I'll give you a different scripture along the same lines which is indeed out of our bery own canonized bible for your perusal. Feel free (or others) to add comment about this scripture also if it be that I could be posting this one in error. An attempt to be open minded, humble, and teachable. We all are brothers and sisters and no one is perfect and makes errors occassionally, so it behooves us all to make these efforts to see the truth and gain unity within the body. That said, the scripture:
Numbers 13:32-33
32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight./(KJV)
Seems clear and to the point to me.
Blessings.
Edit: Actually, one should read the entire chapter for added context and insight.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Ah! that's what I thought, but wanted to be sure. When I (pray first of course, and) read the bible with a simplistic and literal eye, it seems to be easier to understand for me and saves much time also, that would be spent looking for symbolism.
Are you one which tends to read scripture on the literal side, brother?
Do you find these scriptures to be true or false?
Do you find the points I've made from scripture to be untrue?
- Sons of men can not begat a son of God.
- The term son of God is a reference to a being that God creates of begats Himself.
- The sons of God were unaffected by the flood and continued after the flood to produce Nephilim.
Genesis 6:4
Did you ever honestly consider how the Giants [Nephilim] continued after the flood if those that produced them were human?
- The New Testament writers refer to them as angels and or spirits.
- For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:18-20
- 4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5
- And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.Jude 6-7
Why not just discuss them with me in brotherly love, rather than ignoring these things, and insulting me.
I don't wish to argue, but I honestly am participating in a discussion.
I would appreciate it if you would stop insulting me.
God Bless you.
JLB
Edward
2024 Supporter
Brother, please don't feel that way. If I have come across in a bulling manner to you, please forgive me because such was not my intent.
Compared to some other threads on this topic which have taken place in the past, I thought this thread was going rather well. An academic discussion among adults and brethren in Christ. Yes there are different views on this, and I think that at times, personal pride can offend some where no attack was made, brought about when one is emotionally discouraged by a sense of malicious intent which is perhaps gleaned through an offense of ones sensibilities and beliefs shaking them up within. (not saying you, just in general). I'm not asking anyone to change their beliefs, but only discussing the issue out of a desire to learn more. Hoping I'm wrong in a way, and that real light can be shed which could give indication of credibility of the real truth, but in order to do this for myself, it has to be scripture based and academically sound rather than emotionally based. So far, that hasn't happened for me. Yet my current leaning on belief of this topic do have academic and scriptural support. So that's where I'm at on it, and I certainly mean no slight to any one of my brothers or sisters.
I would welcome an academic response from you and am able to set aside my presuppositions in order to give alternate views honest consideration, but my sensibilities tell me that I should not change my beliefs based on emotionalism.
So once again, i offer my apology to you brother just in case I have inadvertently offended you. God bless you.
brother Paul
Member
There were NO extraterrestrial relations, and 1st Corinthians 15:39,40 proves it...
"All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
When angels assume the form of a man they are assuming a corporeal (terrestrial) form. At that time they have a terrestrial body (see Abraham and Lord and His the two angels). Abraham grabs hold of the feet of the Lord and the sodomites want to have sex with the angels because they had bodies
I think this Scripture verse is self-explanatory. Carefully notice that Genesis 6:2 states... "and they took them wives of all which they chose."
They were not "in heaven"
If, as some theologians believe (including the mighty Bible teacher Dr. M.R. DeHaan), angels did have sex with earthly women, then why has it not occurred since Genesis 6:1-6?
Read 2 Peter and Jude
Also getting married or being married on earth does not exclude sex and scriptures about marriage are not scriptures about sex...there are many scriptures about sex not in the context of marriage...
"All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
When angels assume the form of a man they are assuming a corporeal (terrestrial) form. At that time they have a terrestrial body (see Abraham and Lord and His the two angels). Abraham grabs hold of the feet of the Lord and the sodomites want to have sex with the angels because they had bodies
I think this Scripture verse is self-explanatory. Carefully notice that Genesis 6:2 states... "and they took them wives of all which they chose."
They were not "in heaven"
If, as some theologians believe (including the mighty Bible teacher Dr. M.R. DeHaan), angels did have sex with earthly women, then why has it not occurred since Genesis 6:1-6?
Read 2 Peter and Jude
Also getting married or being married on earth does not exclude sex and scriptures about marriage are not scriptures about sex...there are many scriptures about sex not in the context of marriage...
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kickedoutofchurch
Member
Amen! Sorry for the long post. I try to be short, but it just keeps flowing out when I start typing.
My heart tells me that 1 Corinthians 15:39-40 says this too. May I clarify my own understanding in what I believe God has revealed to me?
There is both a natural, physical flesh which is our natural human body. However, there is also a spiritual body which is what the Angels (who are Spirits) have and Jesus had after he was resurrected. (but his was different than Angels only I won't go into it here) We will also have one like Jesus once we exit our current bodies (as regenerated believers). Here is the extra point that if God reveals to us, will close this discussion and reveal a POWERFUL truth to us. The fallen Angel/demon who is a spirit of God is ALSO called "flesh" only it is a spiritual flesh. Just like everything else in the Bible, there are TWO flesh (bodies) as well. One is physical (human body) and one is spiritual (fallen spirit). Now, if God reveals this to us, we can also see why our human spirits were called "old man" or "flesh" or "body of sin" when they were dead or wrapped in darkness (before they were quickened to life). This is the same state that a fallen Angel is in and Satan himself - wrapped in darkness or "death". Brings new and clearer meaning to Romans 6:6.
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin Romans 6:6 NASB
My heart tells me this. Our "body" of sin was our old, dead (unregenerated) spirit man. When we believed, he actually "DIED". That's right, something that was DEAD, DIED! You know what happens when "death" is killed?
LIFE springs forth!
This was our "second death" when "death" itself died for us personally when we were born again as believers. In Gods plan death comes first.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. John 12:24 NASB
So, how does a believer's "flesh" or dead spirit man die? What "kills" him? Great questions!
"For everyone will be salted with fire. Mark 9:49 NASB
John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire Luke 3:16 NASB
God's refining and purifying Holy FIRE (Spirit) kills our old dead fleshly, spirit-man when we believe. Now, we know why the second death has NO power over a believer.
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years Revelation 20:6
We can no longer die the "second death" because we already have through the (refining & purifying or "salting") FIRE of the Holy Spirit. The death of the human body is first death...
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24 NASB
Want to be fed from within? (Maybe you already have?) Ponder these verses now. They will blow you away when God turns on the light.
The last enemy to be destroyed is death 1 Corinthians 15:26 ESV
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire Revelation 20:14 NASB
Could "second death" = SPIRITUAL death and <> physical death?
God bless you brothers and sisters,
kicked
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th1b.taylor
Member
You have to be careful with that term (a son of God) because I and I pray you are, both of us sons of God. The answer is both yes and no since you have not defined your usage of the term. My mother and dad, who to the best of my knowledge, died as Atheists and yet I am now a son of God. Inversely, I am not a Son of God.
This is always true.
Not true, there is no evidence of any Spirit Being ever giving birth to another Spirit. This is a case of attributing human attributes to spiritual beings that never die the first death.
You did not read what I have posted but there is a better article, defining this matter of who the sons of God and the daughters of men are on my blog without having to search it right now and the link is in my signature. You have made the standard, heresy directed, mistake of imputing deity onto the sons of God and that is true only of the Son of God, God and the Holy Spirit. Even the Angels, Spirit Beings, are not given any deity. They also do not have a body except they are awarded one, temporarily (I cannot support this with scripture but it is worthy of discussion in another thread), by God to complete a specific mission for Him.
Scripture reference?
I have, since my conversion, stood, flat footed, on the Word of God but remember, these are not stand alone scriptures and I do hold true the basic rule of hermeneutics.
I did not mean to insult you, only to bring this into the realm of discussion and this now at that point.
May God bless.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 1 John 4:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 1 John 3:9
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.John 3:3-6
Sorry brother, these scriptures teach us otherwise.
JLB
4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Genesis 6:4
Brother, these giants were produced when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men, in those days [before the flood] and afterward [after the flood].
The Children of Israel drove these things from the promised land and destroyed most of them.
There were Nephilim [giants] on the earth before the flood.
The flood wiped them all out.
And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. Genesis 7:21
Then they were Nephilim [giants] after the flood in the days of Moses.
The way the Nephilim are produced is through sexual relations between the sons of God and the daughters of men.
The Point: The sons of God continued after the flood to produce Nephilim [giants] because the sons of God were not human beings [angels] and were not affected by the flood.
JLB
- For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:18-20
- 4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5
- And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.Jude 6-7
- Spirits who were formerly disobedient when in the days of Noah the Divine longsuffering waited...
- if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness... and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah,
- the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness...sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh
JLB
th1b.taylor
Member
Good morning brother,
Forgiving and pardoning are important in our lives but they serve/benefit opposing groups. If I offer a pardon to you, that is to your benefit but if I have the sane presence of mind to forgive anything or anyone, that is to my benefit. If I pardon an offense i have relieved the offender of the responsibility of the weight of the offense. If I forgive the offender the weight of the offense is removed from my back and placed at the foot of the cross leaving the offender the responsibility to do the same.
It is going to be difficult for me to forgive or to pardon anyone in this thread because no crime has been committed against me. Where there is no offense to a person, forgiveness becomes a meaningless ritual. This, particular, string is one of the quieter on this subject but barbs seem to be the order of the day and that is not the way the followers of the Christ conduct themselves without repenting. I do not even claim to be guiltless of this crime/sin against God but I do try to get over myself and remember who I am.
I told JLB the link to my blog contains a recently posted article mapping out what has come to be my stace on this matter but if need be I can repost it here in this string.
God bless.
kickedoutofchurch
Member
Here is one thing I wanted to comment on if I may.
I don't believe their are any direct scripture that says in one sentence that a spirit "gave birth", but if you ponder these verses, one could conclude that God our "father" does indeed birth us through the Holy Spirit. To me, that is the very definition of being a "father". A father "begats" or "births" a son even though he doesn't actually have the baby.
Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? Hebrews 12:9 NASB
I may be crazy, but I read this and hear "just like your earthly fathers who begat (birthed through your mom) you, so did your Heavenly Father"
one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all Ephesians 4:6 NASB
I believe as the "Father" of all, he "begat" or birthed everything including all Angels and Spirits and men through the Holy Spirit who is the "helper" or companion just like Eve was for Adam. Now, with that in mind, here is one that will really throw you for a loop.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life John 3:16
Please note that much of Christianity does NOT know what to do with the word "begotten" and many translations try to remove it. We need to go to a more literal translations to be true.
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 1:18 KJV (NASB has not removed it either)
Begotten = "born". So, is this talking about the birth of Jesus the MAN or the birth of Jesus the Spirit? When was he "begotten"? When you think you have the answer, check this verse out:
By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him 1 John 4:9
Now, if John 3:16 and John 1:18 and 1 John 4:9 are speaking of the man Jesus being the only "begotten" or born Son of God, how could he have sent him into the World? Something perplexing to ponder if you have any extra brain cycles.
Sorry to sidetrack. My main point is that I see scripture declares that Father God is indeed the one who "begats" or births all spirits (men and angels) through his Holy Spirit or "helper".
God bless,
kicked
th1b.taylor
Member
I sorry but the context of each of these verses cries out for the recognition that there are two, completely, different uses of the term that can never be mixed. In First John 3:9 you have transposed begotten over "born of God." The term used in this verse speaks of the spiritual "Born Again" experience where as Mary gave unto the Son of God, physical, human birth, pain, blood and intense suffering.
God did not miraculously cause anyone to be pregnant that I might be Born Again and my mother and bith father begat me in January of '45 and then. 45 years later, I was indwelt of and by the Holy Spirit, the second birth.
I am struck that you included the principal proof text used by folks to prove my stance on the subject. The Jesus/Nicodemus encounter clearly defines the subject spoken of and discussed by these two as being a Spiritual matter as opposed to the Human birth suffered by Mary that delivered Jesus to us.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-6
Where in these verses does Jesus differentiate the birth experience of the flesh and the birth experience of the spirit?
Born of flesh.
Born of the Spirit.
You are trying to create a difference where the scripture does not.
You will have to come up with something more than, The term used in this verse speaks of the spiritual "Born Again" experience where as Mary gave unto the Son of God, physical, human birth, pain, blood and intense suffering.
That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1
All three are the same Greek word.
JLB
th1b.taylor
Member
There is a perceptual matter that falls into this Kicked. If I use my best Texas speech I would explain to you, "It rained cats and puppy dogs here last night." Now, I have a Chain Link fence around 3/4 of an acre and if I go outside the ground will be soaked after the 6 inch rain last night but... but I will not find one pup nor will I finde one cat, dead or alive except the ladies here let the dogs or one of my cats outside. It still rained cats and puppy dogs last night.
This very use of context to define, by the useage, is the reason the KJV and the other thought for thought translations are so popular. The reader does not need to hurt their head pondering and they do not need to be submissive to the Holy Spirit, they believe, to receive something they think they can work with, the translators have ?already? done the hard work for them.
A dictionary explanation can be very useful or it can be useless. The matter is just as my favorite Jr. High Teacher taught us, context, context, context and then go back and find the context, it matters.
God bless brother.
brother Paul
Member
Ever see Shaquil O'Neel next to Ben Stein? Tall as a cedar is a metaphor...
What part of Texas?
th1b.taylor
Member
JLB,
It might be profitable for you and I to agree to disagree because you are violating the most important rule of Hermeneutics. (No scripture, passage of scripture nor any grouping of scripture can ever be correctly understood without the light of all other scripture shinning on it/them.)
Taking words, phrases and, or, passages out of their clear and intended context to "proof text" is what all the heretics of the world past and present have done to give birth to their false teachings. We, every one of us, must learn to be submissive to the leading of the Holy spirit. There is a passage that informs us that these scriptures are a mystery to the Lost Man we need to be mindful of.
This taken with the other truths taught by the LORD we can, each of us, do a Spiritual Inventory. Your passages from John 3, read in context, clearly defines thye salvation experience. But this is just the beginning of the inventory, Jesus also taught that wide is the path to destruction and broad the gate that opens to it, Inversely, straight is the path and narrow the gate that leads us to Heaven.
There is also the teaching that people will cry out, LORD, LORD didn't we..." and Jesus will tell them to be gone because He never knew them. This is very distressing when we look at the Barna Survey of the Church Universal in the mid-eighties that demonstrates that better than 98% of the Church member ship are pretenders.
I do not pretend to be able to tell you you are going to heaven nor can I prophecize you going the other direction. However, I can ad I must, according to Jesus, judge your fruit and proof-texting is always a rotten fruit.
May God bless the complete reading of His word.