Are Children born damned or saved?

[EvolvingChristian]

This is not a traditional belief and it would interest me to und

Even we are merciful enough to put a bad dog out of its misery rather than make it suffer living out its remaining life in a small kennel at the pound. Wouldn't God be equally as merciful?

 

[EvolvingChristian]

How do we know if something is truth or not if the Apostles/Jesus did not teach it??

Discernment.

 

[Serving Zion]

You mention non-existence and this is known as nihilism... when after life a person becomes annihilated.

This is not a traditional belief and it would interest me to understand how you came to this conclusion.
I don't find this in the N.T.
Do you have any scripture for this idea?

I think the concept of a "second death" is a pretty good indication of it, if death is taken to mean the end of life and the second death is meant to say that the resurrected life will also be put to an end.

Even we are merciful enough to put a bad dog out of its misery rather than make it suffer living out its remaining life in a small kennel at the pound. Wouldn't God be equally as merciful?

Have you never heard the stories of people who have been rescued from internment and how they are grateful to be alive? I think God's mercy would rather set them free than put them to death, and I'd think dogs would also rather be freed into a happy life than to be terminated early just to relieve them of the misery.

 

[EvolvingChristian]

I think the concept of a "second death" is a pretty good indication of it, if death is taken to mean the end of life and the second death is meant to say that the resurrected life will also be put to an end.


Have you never heard the stories of people who have been rescued from internment and how they are grateful to be alive? I think God's mercy would rather set them free than put them to death, and I'd think dogs would also rather be freed into a happy life than to be terminated early just to relieve them of the misery.

Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

So true. I had the opportunity tonight to speak at length with my 17-year-old son's friend. It seems his parents have not taught him about Jesus. Over dinner I spoke to him while my son listened intently. By the end of the dinner, his friend agreed that there has to be a creator and that the teachings of Jesus make sense. Hopefully, a seed has been planted in him that will grow. Afterward, I prayed to Jesus to give the young man faith and to open his eyes and heart to the word of God.

So many parents don't even give their kids a chance to come to know God.
It's still a personal decision...but some help along the way would be nice.
You did so good to witness to your son's friend.
I pray some day he'll thank you for it. (for he'll be born again).
God's word doesn't not return void....

 

[GodsGrace]

It's my belief that those that go to Heaven start at varying distances from God. The closer one is to God in life, the closer they will be to God in Heaven. Others will start at a greater distance from God because God doesn't force them to be close to him. In time, however, I believe that ALL will be close to and one with God.

Undoubtedly, there are many souls on Earth that are lost and will remain lost until the end. But, because God loves them so much and is merciful, will be nonetheless saved. However, they will be starting at square 1 in the hereafter. The good news is they will no longer be under Satanic/demonic influence nor under worldly, Godless, governments.

Again, that's my belief.

To believe otherwise means that the vast majority will end up in Hell or dying into non-existence. I discern that God will not forsake his blind and lost children. I believe he will take them by the hand and say, come on dummy, it's this way.

Would you allow your child to be lost and that they end up in Hell? Of course not, and neither does God, or so I believe.

I used to feel this way.
I would wonder, the same as you, how it could be possible for a loving God to banish some to hell.

One day I realized that God is not only loving...
He's also a just God....
God will be true to His word, He will be true to His character and to His nature.
2 Timothy 2:13 states that God will always be faithful to Himself. He cannot deny His own justice and nature.
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

If everyone is going to e saved somehow, in this method of yours....
Then why would Jesus have had to die?
What would be the meaning of John 3:16?
It states that those WHO BELIEVE in Jesus will not perish but have eternal life.

These are all good things to think about.
Maybe we're all lost and blind....
But Jesus said that those blind guides that lead the blind will cause both to fall into a pit.
We go through different phases in our Christianity....

 

[GodsGrace]

You got the wrong idea, so be careful. The driver behind had not "already" been inconvenienced, he was "being" inconvenienced - and it wasn't because I had been finding it difficult to get out of the driveway. In fact after those two cars went past, I pulled out easily. So it was a trap, a setup of the enemy and I knew already that it wasn't the spirit of God who was doing it. Yes the first driver was being considerate, but it wasn't rooted in kindness, it was rooted in judgment and that's a huge difference. You'd do well to understand that difference.

I think we have to make the call at the time.
I see both the good and the bad in this set up.

If only that was the attitude of parents wherever I go. It seems that parents are always resenting their children, or at least it is happening often enough that it hurts me to see it day in and day out. The Police of course are the instruments that give parents the license to do so.

And what is the opposite of empathy? Is it not psychopathy? Isn't it sad that most people have been stripped of the necessary level of empathy that gives justice to the vulnerable?

Hmmm. I think you might understand what empathy is but most persons don't.
They think it means compassion.
I don't think it's easy to have empthy...I think compassion would suffice to do what you say above: Give justice to the vulnerable.

Yes, that is the war, and everybody just stands there and allows it to happen, thinking "it's none of my business" - and yet there is a reason that children cry. What is the reason?

Most of the time it's the feeling that they are being mistreated or unloved or ignored.
I see less of this here where I live,,,really hardly none.
I never realized it till now. Maybe many know each other here and it just looks terrible when in a supermarket, for instance,
and a child is crying and the mother just ignores him.
Plus, I hear lots of parents here call their child...love..or my love. It's sweet.

Then if they are making a mistake, we need to ask why. That is our responsible duty to them in the Lord.

The truth of the matter is that sin and love are mutually-exclusive. A person who is doing sin is not doing love, and a person who is doing love is not doing sin. In every moment of behaviour, the person is acting to bring about the one or the other, and it all comes down to the environment they are in as to what they become and the things they choose to do.

I agree,,,,but most parents don't listen and they believe they're doing everything right.
Those that realize that there is something wrong, seek help on their own.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ohhh, ok. Sorry. I didn’t realize you were just bringing up therories for the sake of discussion. My bad. :-(

I like the ASV and KJV. I don’t know much about the Nasb.

Regarding Psalm 51:5 the KJV agrees with the NASB.
I don't know about the ASV....

yes, that was a point I tried making some time ago. Sex can either give glory to God, or be utterly sinful and everything in between. David’s sexual relationship was very, very sinful. I believe David is connecting his conception with the conception of his child with Bathsheba.

It certainly could be a psychological connection... we can't know for sure what was in David's mind, but can make an intelligent guess based on the facts.
Psalm 51:5 is, however, speaking of David's birth, as you know...
so I never even considered his relationship with Bathsheba having a role in his lamentations and prayers.

I trust the article from Chabad. If you read it in its entirety, she did not commit adulatory. She was righteous in her behavior. It was David’s Father who sinned. Thus, the connection between David’s birth and the child Bathsheba carried. Both conceptions occurred in sin.

I didn't really read it. I skimmed over it and it seemed to be saying what I intended to say.
So it might have been the father of David that sinned....so David was conceived in sin.
Perfect.

 

[stovebolts]

It certainly could be a psychological connection... we can't know for sure what was in David's mind, but can make an intelligent guess based on the facts.

People are predictable. Predictability is a human trait. We know enough about King David and Psalm 51 where we don’t really have to guess.

Psalm 51:5 is, however, speaking of David's birth, as you know...
so I never even considered his relationship with Bathsheba having a role in his lamentations and prayers.

No, Psalms 51:5 is referencing Davids conception. That is, King David is referring to the sexual act between his Mother and Father. That’s generally how conception worked back in the day lol.

Psalm 51... You should read the entire Psalm one day so you get a better idea of the context. It starts out with this.

Psalm 51
New International Version
​

Psalm 51[a]​

For the director of music. A psalm of David. When the prophet Nathan came to him after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba.(A)​

Footnotes​

1. Psalm 51:1 In Hebrew texts 51:1-19 is numbered 51:3-21.

It may help if you go through and read 1 Samuel as well. It’s a fascinating story. It may help you to better understand the narrative David is writing from.

Basically David was caught by the Prophet Nathan for having sex with Bathsheba and having her husband brutally murdered to cover up her pregnancy. Nathan says that the child Bathsheba carries will not survive. David is in anguish.

I didn't really read it. I skimmed over it and it seemed to be saying what I intended to say.

My suggestion to you. Don’t skim. If your skimming you will only find what your looking for. Sit back, take your time and enjoy the story. You might just walk away learning something.

So it might have been the father of David that sinned....so David was conceived in sin.
Perfect.

Psalm 69 speaks to this. We don’t have to guess. David’s Father was not being intimate with his wife when they conceived David. His desire was sexual in nature. David was not a wanted child. Read the article in full. There was great scandal associated with David’s conception. Just as there was great scandal with the relationship between David and Bathsheba.

 

[Serving Zion]

I think we have to make the call at the time.
I see both the good and the bad in this set up.

Yes there is both good and bad in it, and ultimately I decided that it was bad to give him my support for having broken the rules. The road code is a set of rules for one purpose: to create order on the roads so that traffic can flow like clockwork. It is only occasionally when the rules of the road code prevent traffic from flowing, that then exclusions should be made (say for instance to allow cars to enter the main road from a side-street when traffic is backed up to a stand-still). In this case it doesn't meet the necessary threshold to justify the breaking of the rules, and so his decision was not based upon an observation of the value of breaking the rules for my sake, but upon some predetermined resentment for some difficulty he has had in a past time of having been unable to get onto the road from that driveway. As I said, the traffic wasn't bad that day, after he went past I was able to get onto the road immediately without any trouble.

Hmmm. I think you might understand what empathy is but most persons don't.
They think it means compassion.
I don't think it's easy to have empthy...I think compassion would suffice to do what you say above: Give justice to the vulnerable

That's an interesting distinction. Unless we are understanding empathy differently, I think that compassion relies upon a necessary level of empathy, because empathy is a philosophical matter whereas compassion is a behavioural response. A person cannot have compassion unless they have sufficient empathy to compel them to want to act with compassion. You are right to say that it is the lack of compassion that prevents justice. I think it is better to say that than to say that it is a lack of empathy, but I think that the two are fairly well united in their part of it.

Most of the time it's the feeling that they are being mistreated or unloved or ignored.
I see less of this here where I live,,,really hardly none.
I never realized it till now. Maybe many know each other here and it just looks terrible when in a supermarket, for instance,
and a child is crying and the mother just ignores him.
Plus, I hear lots of parents here call their child...love..or my love. It's sweet.

Yes it is the culture that produces the environments in which behaviours are free to manifest, and whatever is motivating a person to need relief of their distress to such an extent that they would be inclined to afflict the vulnerable in search of that relief... yes, it is cultural. It doesn't surprise me to hear that there are pockets of culture where the children are treated well. I observed that quality first-hand in the community during my time in Sweden.

I agree,,,,but most parents don't listen and they believe they're doing everything right.
Those that realize that there is something wrong, seek help on their own.

They would listen if the authority would speak against them, and that's what I am saying is the problem here.

 

[GodsGrace]

Even we are merciful enough to put a bad dog out of its misery rather than make it suffer living out its remaining life in a small kennel at the pound. Wouldn't God be equally as merciful?

God is a God of
love
mercy
justice

He is not ONLY any one of these attributes...but all three.
It's OK to use analogies like the dog in the kennel, but sometimes they don't properly represent God.

We are not just like God is. Sometimes we offer to persons what they do not deserve...which is what justice is.

When God told Adam not to eat of one particular tree, he disobeyed God...not just anyone, but God.

For God to be just, He must enforce His laws....
We're not allowed to live out our life that way we want to...but the way God wants us to and for which He gives us the strength through the Holy Spirit.

Your theory of a distance from God is an interesting one,,,but it's not upheld by scirpture.

Could you imagine what kind of Christianity we would have if everyone just made up their own rules as to what Christianity is and what God expects from us.

We would lose all truth.
And Jesus said we would know the truth.
John 8:32

What do you think of this idea that we cannot just make up our own rules?

 

[GodsGrace]

Discernment.

Where would this discernment come from?
Wouldn't it come from studying God's word?

It's the same with our conscience.
How could we trust our conscience if it is not shaped by God's word?
(you didn't bring up the conscience -- I did, as another example).

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the concept of a "second death" is a pretty good indication of it, if death is taken to mean the end of life and the second death is meant to say that the resurrected life will also be put to an end.


Have you never heard the stories of people who have been rescued from internment and how they are grateful to be alive? I think God's mercy would rather set them free than put them to death, and I'd think dogs would also rather be freed into a happy life than to be terminated early just to relieve them of the misery.

Could you repeat the above in a different way?
I'm not sure what you mean.
You got a like at it so it must be my slow brain this morning!
Thanks.

I mean, it sounds like you believe in nihilism too.
I couldn't believe in it because I have too much trouble spelling it!

 

[GodsGrace]

People are predictable. Predictability is a human trait. We know enough about King David and Psalm 51 where we don’t really have to guess.

No, Psalms 51:5 is referencing Davids conception. That is, King David is referring to the sexual act between his Mother and Father. That’s generally how conception worked back in the day lol.

Psalm 51... You should read the entire Psalm one day so you get a better idea of the context. It starts out with this.

Psalm 51​

New International Version​

​

Psalm 51[a]​

For the director of music. A psalm of David. When the prophet Nathan came to him after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba.(A)​

​

Footnotes​

1. Psalm 51:1 In Hebrew texts 51:1-19 is numbered 51:3-21.

It may help if you go through and read 1 Samuel as well. It’s a fascinating story. It may help you to better understand the narrative David is writing from.

Basically David was caught by the Prophet Nathan for having sex with Bathsheba and having her husband brutally murdered to cover up her pregnancy. Nathan says that the child Bathsheba carries will not survive. David is in anguish.




My suggestion to you. Don’t skim. If your skimming you will only find what your looking for. Sit back, take your time and enjoy the story. You might just walk away learning something.



Psalm 69 speaks to this. We don’t have to guess. David’s Father was not being intimate with his wife when they conceived David. His desire was sexual in nature. David was not a wanted child. Read the article in full. There was great scandal associated with David’s conception. Just as there was great scandal with the relationship between David and Bathsheba.

Yes,,,I thought we were on the same page,,,but I don't think so AGAIN!

I believe Psalm 51:5 is referring to David's CONCEPTION (I used the word birth by mistake).
His CONCEPTION was wrought with iniquity...with sin.
Either his mother or father were sinning at the time...I believed it was his mother.

All I could do is post links....I'm not a theologian, but I do believe it is referencing the mother of David.

The article is by J. Morrel and he also mentions Whitney Pratney and someone else.

Does Psalms 51:5 Teach Original Sin? Was David Born A Sinner Or Was His Mother Sinning When She Got Pregnant? Jesse Morrell

Does Ps. 51:5 Teach Original Sin? Was David Born A Sinner Or Was His Mother Sinning When She Got Pregnant? By Jesse Morrell [An excerpt from the book “Does Man Inherit A Sinful Nature? By Je…

biblicaltruthresources.wordpress.com

 

[stovebolts]

Either his mother or father were sinning at the time...I believed it was his mother.

Why do you believe it was David’s Mother?

 

[Serving Zion]

His CONCEPTION was wrought with iniquity...with sin.

That is not what it says. There is two parts to it: his conception and his bringing-forth (shaping/forming).

Of his conception, he says that his mother was in sin when she conceived him. The word used in the Hebrew for conception is also used to describe when the animal is in heat. Furthermore, the pronominal suffix shows us that it is in context of his mother's heat, or more accurately, "the heat of my mother". So he is saying clearly about the moment(s) his mother conceived him, she was doing sin.

The bringing-forth, or shaping, is telling of the struggle to be delivered into the state of being (https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2342.htm) and as such it does describe a long period of time, whether in context of being born through a womb or the childhood (which is more likely given that it is said to have been wrought in iniquity).

Therefore he says that the sin and iniquity are associated with the two distinct aspects of his being given the life he has: where his conception was done in sin and his bringing-forth was wrought in iniquity. I think if I was to write it in my own way in English, I would say that my mother conceived of me sinfully and I was shaped by injustice.

It therefore shows clearly that he appeals to God for mercy because of the harm done to him that has put him in a position of undeserved corruption, and thus he believes that his sin is the result of effectively having been robbed of his intrinsic nature. I think that the plea for mercy on those grounds is hands-down the most reasonable given that it is obvious in the facts that he is remorseful.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you believe it was David’s Mother?

The fact that Jesse Morrell thinks so and the fact that Whitney Pratney thinks so.

I'm not a theologian...I have to go by what theologians believe -- of which Whitney Pratney is one....
and then if I can line it up with biblical scripture I will accept it.

I NEVER believed the sin was the act of conceiving David.
I never heard that marital relations were sinful and if I had, it would have been rejected by me.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is not what it says. There is two parts to it: his conception and his bringing-forth (shaping/forming).

Of his conception, he says that his mother was in sin when she conceived him. The word used in the Hebrew for conception is also used to describe when the animal is in heat. Furthermore, the pronominal suffix shows us that it is in context of his mother's heat, or more accurately, "the heat of my mother". So he is saying clearly about the moment(s) his mother conceived him, she was doing sin.

The bringing-forth, or shaping, is telling of the struggle to be delivered into the state of being (https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2342.htm) and as such it does describe a long period of time, whether in context of being born through a womb or the childhood (which is more likely given that it is said to have been wrought in iniquity).

Therefore he says that the sin and iniquity are associated with the two distinct aspects of his being given the life he has: where his conception was done in sin and his bringing-forth was wrought in iniquity. I think if I was to write it in my own way in English, I would say that my mother conceived of me sinfully and I was shaped by injustice.

It therefore shows clearly that he appeals to God for mercy because of the harm done to him that has put him in a position of undeserved corruption, and thus he believes that his sin is the result of effectively having been robbed of his intrinsic nature. I think that the plea for mercy on those grounds is hands-down the most reasonable given that it is obvious in the facts that he is remorseful.

I can't agree with the above.
David's PARENTS...probably the mother....was sinning when David was conceived.

Psalm 51:5 clearly states that he was conceived IN SIN....there was sin happening when David was conceived.
Married persons do not sin when they conceive a person...heat is not a sin...

Did you read this article and why don't you agree with it?

Does Psalms 51:5 Teach Original Sin? Was David Born A Sinner Or Was His Mother Sinning When She Got Pregnant? Jesse Morrell

Does Ps. 51:5 Teach Original Sin? Was David Born A Sinner Or Was His Mother Sinning When She Got Pregnant? By Jesse Morrell [An excerpt from the book “Does Man Inherit A Sinful Nature? By Je…

biblicaltruthresources.wordpress.com

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes there is both good and bad in it, and ultimately I decided that it was bad to give him my support for having broken the rules. The road code is a set of rules for one purpose: to create order on the roads so that traffic can flow like clockwork. It is only occasionally when the rules of the road code prevent traffic from flowing, that then exclusions should be made (say for instance to allow cars to enter the main road from a side-street when traffic is backed up to a stand-still). In this case it doesn't meet the necessary threshold to justify the breaking of the rules, and so his decision was not based upon an observation of the value of breaking the rules for my sake, but upon some predetermined resentment for some difficulty he has had in a past time of having been unable to get onto the road from that driveway. As I said, the traffic wasn't bad that day, after he went past I was able to get onto the road immediately without any trouble.


That's an interesting distinction. Unless we are understanding empathy differently, I think that compassion relies upon a necessary level of empathy, because empathy is a philosophical matter whereas compassion is a behavioural response. A person cannot have compassion unless they have sufficient empathy to compel them to want to act with compassion. You are right to say that it is the lack of compassion that prevents justice. I think it is better to say that than to say that it is a lack of empathy, but I think that the two are fairly well united in their part of it.

Yes it is the culture that produces the environments in which behaviours are free to manifest, and whatever is motivating a person to need relief of their distress to such an extent that they would be inclined to afflict the vulnerable in search of that relief... yes, it is cultural. It doesn't surprise me to hear that there are pockets of culture where the children are treated well. I observed that quality first-hand in the community during my time in Sweden.


They would listen if the authority would speak against them, and that's what I am saying is the problem here.

Three comments:
I agree about Sweden...the folk in Norway tend to be good to their children too.

About the authorities getting involved...
I don't care for the state to get involved in the raising of children UNLESS there is abuse going on.
The problem with abuse is that those who witness it are not willing to get involved.
I seem to remember a child dying of abuse years ago and the teacher had noticed there was a problem but never reported it.

About empathy. You could look up the definitions...I can't take the time to do this now.
Compassion is when you feel sorry for someone and you might make some provision for that person.
Empathy is when you FEEL (however you want to understand that) the person's grief/pain, whatever.

Empathy is more than compassion, not less.
We all should have compassion...
but we don't all have empathy - and that's fine.

 

[Serving Zion]

Could you repeat the above in a different way?
I'm not sure what you mean.
You got a like at it so it must be my slow brain this morning!
Thanks.

I mean, it sounds like you believe in nihilism too.
I couldn't believe in it because I have too much trouble spelling it!

It's only because you haven't looked at the scripture I mentioned, in that context, before. When you do see what I am saying, that it is appointed to man that he shall die once and then face judgment, then there is a time of judgment in the prophecies that talks of a second death and a lasting judgment. The first death is then speaking of the end of life in such a way that some awareness of life remains in order to stand in the judgment. Naturally, we have to look at it as being the end of the physical body where the spiritual ego remains aware of it's existence. That is to describe death itself - the end of life as we know it. Yet there is an expression "second death" in the Revelation that tells us the dead were judged - all those in hades and in the sea, they were judged and condemned to a second death. They are not said to have been brought back to life first, so therefore what is there that remains to die if in that state they have already died? It's pretty obvious to me that we are looking at the end of all sin, the annihilation of the satan and the false prophet, and an everlasting world without sin. Therefore in that final judgment God is doing away with every cause for suffering, so that in the absence of suffering is also no memory of the things that caused the suffering and hence, there is nothing left of those who once caused the world to suffer.