Are Children born damned or saved?

[GodsGrace]

Neither of those captures what it means to be IN sin. Sin is a thing that had her in it's possession, hence, she was in sin (not in godliness). You can either be in sin or in godliness.

Agreed.
She was in sin.

 

[Serving Zion]

Agreed.
She was in sin.

So now are you trying to say that we don't disagree, even after saying that we should agree to disagree?

 

[GodsGrace]

So now are you trying to say that we don't disagree, even after saying that we should agree to disagree?

 

[Serving Zion]

I'm confused by this. Why not just answer the simple question with yes or no? You force me to wonder so much by saying nothing at all.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm confused by this. Why not just answer the simple question with yes or no? You force me to wonder so much by saying nothing at all.

WHAT WAS THE QUESTION?!!!

I think we agree...but then you want to talk about the difference between sin and sinning.
I know the difference....why get caught up in that.

 

[Serving Zion]

WHAT WAS THE QUESTION?!!!

"are you trying to say that we don't disagree, even after saying that we should agree to disagree?"

I think we agree...but then you want to talk about the difference between sin and sinning.
I know the difference....why get caught up in that.

Can I just check this, to make sure that we agree on the difference between what sin is and what it means to be sinning:

To be "in sin" means to be possessed by a spirit that is compelling us away from holiness, whereas to be "sinning" means to be doing something that is sinful. One is describing a state of being enslaved to sin, whereas the other is describing the action of doing a sinful thing.

The difference is especially important on Psalms 51:5 because if we say that David's mother was doing a sinful thing when she conceived him, then we are caused to ask two questions, and neither of those can be answered with any certainty. However, because he is saying that she was possessed by an evil spirit when she conceived him, then it tells us more about his complaint as being that he was disadvantaged from the start because he wasn't being conceived by a mother who had love in her (because God is love, and God cannot sin).

Therefore, the aspect of Psalms 51:5 that says "my mother was incapable of love when she conceived me", is lost when we are instead thinking that she was doing a sin at the time.

 

[ezrider]

YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION:
Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

New American Standard Bible
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

King James Bible
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

International Standard Version
Indeed, in iniquity I was brought forth; in sin my mother conceived me.

King James 2000 Bible
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

American King James Version
Behold, I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

American Standard Version
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Darby Bible Translation
Behold, in iniquity was I brought forth, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

English Revised Version
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Webster's Bible Translation
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Yeah! And for all that Paul said I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


David was brought forth under under the law, he was brought forth in iniquity.

From which Mother were you conceived, the bondmaid or the freewoman?
Gal 4

 

[ezrider]

So the way you are behaving is just like someone who wants to trample those pearls into the mud.

The Lord once said to me; if you don't cast your pearls before the swine to be trampled in the mud, then how shall the prodigal son ever find his pearl of great price?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah! And for all that Paul said I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


David was brought forth under under the law, he was brought forth in iniquity.

From which Mother were you conceived, the bondmaid or the freewoman?
Gal 4

Ì

"are you trying to say that we don't disagree, even after saying that we should agree to disagree?"

Yes. That was the question.
You truly have confused me, and that's not so easy to do!

Can I just check this, to make sure that we agree on the difference between what sin is and what it means to be sinning:

To be "in sin" means to be possessed by a spirit that is compelling us away from holiness, whereas to be "sinning" means to be doing something that is sinful. One is describing a state of being enslaved to sin, whereas the other is describing the action of doing a sinful thing.

Agreed 100%

The difference is especially important on Psalms 51:5 because if we say that David's mother was doing a sinful thing when she conceived him, then we are caused to ask two questions, and neither of those can be answered with any certainty. However, because he is saying that she was possessed by an evil spirit when she conceived him, then it tells us more about his complaint as being that he was disadvantaged from the start because he wasn't being conceived by a mother who had love in her (because God is love, and God cannot sin).

OK. I think I see the problem here.
Being in sin and sinning is as you've described above.
Psalm 51:5 states that David was brought forth in INIQUITY.

I had a thread about two years ago that explained the difference between....
Sin
Transgression
Iniquity

Iniquity means a sinful lifestyle:

Definition of iniquity​

1: gross injustice : WICKEDNESS
2: a wicked act or thing : SIN

source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/iniquity

What I'm saying is that David's mother was IN SIN when he was conceived.
She was living IN INIQUITY.
The links I sent describe that David was not well respected when he was born because of some sin
in his family. The idea is that his mother was LIVING IN SIN....
and POSSIBLY SINNING when he was conceived.
We cannot know this part of it because we are not told.

Therefore, the aspect of Psalms 51:5 that says "my mother was incapable of love when she conceived me", is lost when we are instead thinking that she was doing a sin at the time.

I don't believe that is what Psalm 51:5 is stating.
It's speaking about iniquity AND sin (sinning).

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah! And for all that Paul said I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


David was brought forth under under the law, he was brought forth in iniquity.

From which Mother were you conceived, the bondmaid or the freewoman?
Gal 4

What does the bondwoman or the freewoman have to do with Psalm 51:5 ?
David was brought forth under in iniquity.
Was David born of the bondwoman?

 

[ezrider]

What does the bondwoman or the freewoman have to do with Psalm 51:5 ?
David was brought forth under in iniquity.
Was David born of the bondwoman?

If you can understand the allegory presented in Galatians 4, then why can't you understand the allegory in David? Perhaps the idea of sin ensnares and captivates you.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you can understand the allegory presented in Galatians 4, then why can't you understand the allegory in David? Perhaps the idea of sin ensnares and captivates you.

What allegory is there to understand?
Psalm 51:5 seems easy and to the point.
Instead of telling me that sin ensnares me and captivates me,
why don't you just answer my question?
Which, really, it doesn't matter anymore.

 

[Serving Zion]

OK. I think I see the problem here.
Being in sin and sinning is as you've described above.
Psalm 51:5 states that David was brought forth in INIQUITY.

I had a thread about two years ago that explained the difference between....
Sin
Transgression
Iniquity

Iniquity means a sinful lifestyle:

Definition of iniquity​

1: gross injustice : WICKEDNESS
2: a wicked act or thing : SIN

source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/iniquity

What I'm saying is that David's mother was IN SIN when he was conceived.

The verse of 51:5 contains two distinct expressions:

• In iniquity I was brought forth
• In sin did my mother conceive me

Notice that the scripture was not divided into verses when it was first written. The numbering system came later. So they should be viewed as two distinct statements that are related by the use of the conjunctive vav. Do you remember what the conjuncitve vav is? It is the letter that looks like a tent peg that is used to join two things together. It is usually translated as the word "and".

So we should read them as two distinct statements and look to how they describe his plea to God in a combined sense.

I like your definition of the word "iniquity" as being "gross injustice". It is the tendency for rulers to do injustice that is iniquity. So David is saying that he was raised by gross injustice, which is evidence to show that his mother was in sin (because love does not rejoice with injustice, but rejoices with the truth). Therefore, love cannot do iniquity, and if a person is doing iniquity then it is sin in them that is doing that.

What I'm saying is that David's mother was IN SIN when he was conceived.
She was living IN INIQUITY.

See I'd say something a bit different to you: I'd say that David's mother was IN SIN when he was conceived, and that he was brought forth in iniquity. In fact, that's what the scripture says, that he was brought forth in iniquity. I think it's quite different if you are going to say that David's mother was living in iniquity, although it might be true, but it's not really what Psalms 51:5 is saying.

The links I sent describe that David was not well respected when he was born because of some sin
in his family.

Those links aren't based on scripture though are they? Isn't it true that they're based on the Talmud? That's the writings of the Jewish myths of an era some 400 years after they had cut themselves off from Christ (Matthew 23:37-39). Why would you give any credence to their ideas? Don't you know that they were more alienated from God than the Gentiles in that time? (Romans 11:7-10).

 

[GodsGrace]

The verse of 51:5 contains two distinct expressions:

• In iniquity I was brought forth
• In sin did my mother conceive me

Notice that the scripture was not divided into verses when it was first written. The numbering system came later. So they should be viewed as two distinct statements that are related by the use of the conjunctive vav. Do you remember what the conjuncitve vav is? It is the letter that looks like a tent peg that is used to join two things together. It is usually translated as the word "and".

So we should read them as two distinct statements and look to how they describe his plea to God in a combined sense.

Agreed.

I like your definition of the word "iniquity" as being "gross injustice". It is the tendency for rulers to do injustice that is iniquity. So David is saying that he was raised by gross injustice, which is evidence to show that his mother was in sin (because love does not rejoice with injustice, but rejoices with the truth). Therefore, love cannot do iniquity, and if a person is doing iniquity then it is sin in them that is doing that.

The above is what you THINK the psalm is saying.
It's simply saying that David was brought forth in iniquity....
there was something wicked going on when he was brought forth....when he was conceived.
and IN SIN did my mother conceive me....this COULD MEAN that his mother was actually sinning at the moment of his
conception....but we can't know this for sure.
We can be sure that she was in the STATE OF SINNING (somehow) when he was conceived.
For instance, maybe she was having an adulterous affair with someone.
Maybe David was conceived by that adulteress affair?
I don't know how anyone could be sure of this...we can't.

See I'd say something a bit different to you: I'd say that David's mother was IN SIN when he was conceived, and that he was brought forth in iniquity. In fact, that's what the scripture says, that he was brought forth in iniquity. I think it's quite different if you are going to say that David's mother was living in iniquity, although it might be true, but it's not really what Psalms 51:5 is saying.


Those links aren't based on scripture though are they? Isn't it true that they're based on the Talmud? That's the writings of the Jewish myths of an era some 400 years after they had cut themselves off from Christ (Matthew 23:37-39). Why would you give any credence to their ideas? Don't you know that they were more alienated from God than the Gentiles in that time? (Romans 11:7-10).

I'd say that those that wrote the Talmud would know the best what was meant by Psalm 51:5.
Whether or not they were alienated from God does not matter...what matters is that they understood the history of Israel.
-And, if it's being posted today it means it still has the same meaning.

 

[JLB]

If you can understand the allegory presented in Galatians 4, then why can't you understand the allegory in David? Perhaps the idea of sin ensnares and captivates you.

Have mercy upon me, O God,
According to Your lovingkindness;
According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,
Blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin.
For I acknowledge my transgressions,
And my sin is always before me.
Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,
And blameless when You judge.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
Psalm 51:1-5


This is David’s prayer of repentance to the Lord after he was confronted by Nathan the prophet for his sin and indiscretion concerning Bathsheba and her husband.



This prayer was inspired by the Spirit.







JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

there was something wicked going on when he was brought forth....when he was conceived

Being brought-forth is different from being conceived. They are different words in the original Hebrew, and they are different words in the English language. I see that you are conflating the two. It is leading you to misunderstand what is really being said by each individual expression because you are thinking that they are both describing the same thing when they are not.

David is saying that his whole making was a disadvantage to him, because

a) His mother was in sin when she conceived him
and
b) He was brought-forth in iniquity

Therefore he pleads to God for mercy on account of the fact that he did not choose to be made the sinner he had become: "wash me of my iniquity and cleanse me of my sin (v2) because it doesn't belong to me (v5)".

Whether or not they were alienated from God does not matter...

You would probably listen to a Satanist then, eh? Or an antichrist? It doesn't matter if they are alienated from God as long as they have something that you can take from them and use in your arguments?

what matters is that they understood the history of Israel.

That's what I am saying that they didn't. They have written rumours without evidence, in a spirit of blindness, because they themselves (having been alienated from God) could not see what the scriptures were saying. It is just as Jesus said to Nicodemus "you are a teacher of the law and you don't understand these things?". That's who it is that wrote the Talmud. You can never be greater than your teacher you know.

 

[JLB]

David is saying that his whole making was a disadvantage to him, because

a) His mother was in sin when she conceived him
and
b) He was brought-forth in iniquity

Therefore he pleads to God for mercy on account of the fact that he did not choose to be made the sinner he had become: "wash me of my iniquity and cleanse me of my sin (v2) because it doesn't belong to me (v5)".

David is pleading to God to have mercy upon him for murdering an innocent man because he wanted his wife.


That’s the context.


Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,
The God of my salvation,
And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
Psalm 51:14




JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

David is pleading to God to have mercy upon him for murdering an innocent man because he wanted his wife.


That’s the context.


Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,
The God of my salvation,
And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
Psalm 51:14




JLB

Yes, and verse 5 tells us his basis for pleading that mercy. One thing leads to another (Matthew 12:33), and he is expressing that he believes that he has been disadvantaged (robbed of his intrinsic nature: James 3:9) by the fact that his mother conceived him in sin and also that he was brought forth in iniquity.

 

[JLB]

Yes, and verse 5 tells us his basis for pleading that mercy. One thing leads to another (Matthew 12:33), and he is expressing that he believes that he has been disadvantaged (robbed of his intrinsic nature: James 3:9) by the fact that his mother conceived him in sin and also that he was brought forth in iniquity.

Are there any mothers who don’t sin?

 

[Serving Zion]

Are there any mothers who don’t sin?

I assume that is what is meant of Mary, mother of Jesus in Luke 1:35. I think it is probably rare to find a mother who remains without sin, but it is not so rare to see mothers that are not in sin from time to time.