Are God's powers limited?

[Novum]

Drew,

Are you non-believer too?

That's the question on most of our minds.

JM and gingercat are both guilty of poisoning the well, a favorite logical fallacy for both of them.

Up the level, guys. You'll need to do better.

 

[gingercat]

Novum,

How am I poisoning the well? I am Jesus' follower and Jesus wants us to contribute in making this worlde to be a better one by our righteous and kind behavior. That's why He tells us to "love your neighbor as yourself" and "love your enemies". This says it all about Jesus.

BTW, of course noone is perfect but regardless, Jesus wants us to do our best.

 

[Novum]

Novum,

How am I poisoning the well? I am Jesus' follower and Jesus wants us to contribute in making this worlde to be a better one by our righteous and kind behavior. That's why He tells us to "love your neighbor as yourself" and "love your enemies". This says it all about Jesus.

BTW, of course noone is perfect but regardless, Jesus wants us to do our best.

I don't think you even realize what kind of logical fallacy "poisoning the well" is. You can go ahead and look it up, then.

 

[gingercat]

Novum, why don't you enlighten me? :D

 

[Ruben]

It seems to me that the question to ask is whether MAN is getting better or not. Survey says.... NO. The problem with all the new technology that makes life better for some of us lucky or fortunate ones is that it is also being used to develope and build new and more powerful weapons.

The same mentality exists today as it has always been. There is a good probability mankind will someday completely and totally kill every living thing on the earth. Now that's not better.

 

[lovely]

Ruben,

To some, the secularism, pluralism, and the technologies in all forms, of this world are something to be celebrated. God's laws, and principals, and gift of salvation, are merely restrictive because they inflict shame, annoying because they prohibit a fulfillment of lusts, and are just simply not needed in their minds, because the consequences of sin are being eradicated by man's own power. The world has no need for a Saviour, and that is Satan's deception of man in full bloom, and the sad thing is man believes it is all about him, and his intellect. This is the betterment of man through the eyes of a secularist, but the end of man through the eyes of the Godly. The secularist would prefer that we keep our "religion" private, accept all that they deem is a "right" of the individual, and deny absolute truth, which is the only "absolute" truth that a Godless man adhere's too.

Satan distorts good, making evil. Man is deceived by this, even though the absolute truth of God is before Him, and he knows it, but he loves evil. God has allowed this for His glory, of which the Godly man knows He is all deserving. God has a divine purpose, and knows the future, because His Word says He does. He has provided a simple, yet narrow, path to Him for His creation. We are merely a creation, but He has made believers sons. That is the depth of His love, and even more so it was accomplished through His Son. It is through the sacrifice of His only begotten Son, Jesus. This should make the Godly man grateful in the depths of his soul for the freedom that he has obtained through God's mercy, and love. God knew that man would sin, He knew He would send His Son, and He knows that He will save those who love Him. In fact, He knew/knows every detail of all that will come to pass, and it will serve to glorify Him, fulfill His will, and work out for good to those who have been called according to His purpose, those who love Him. He says all of this in His Word, and you can trust, that even though man was deceived by Satan, God is in control.

If you hear otherwise, it is not Biblical, and is the vain imaginations of men who have a doctrine that is as old as the deceiver himself. The Lord bless you today.

 

[Drew]

From Wikipedia:

Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy where adverse information about someone is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that person is about to say. Poisoning the well is a special case of argumentum ad hominem. The term was first used with this sense [1] by John Henry Newman in his Apologia Pro Vita Sua [2].

This "argument" has the following form:

1. Unfavorable information (be it true or false) about person A is presented.

2. Therefore any claims person A makes will be false.

Examples:

Before you listen to my opponent, may I remind you that he has been in jail.

Don't listen to what he says, he's a lawyer.

Example from recent threads:

I'm not to bid God speed [2 John 1:11: "Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work"] to Drew.

In this statement, the apparent intent is to pre-emptively discredit anything that Drew will say by characterizing him as "wicked".

Perhaps it will be countered that there is no attempt to pre-empt (and that this characterization of my person is based on past actions). Then, I suppose, this claim might fall under a different sub-category of the "ad hominem" category.

 

[Novum]

Novum, why don't you enlighten me? :D

No. I don't care for your laziness.

Fortunately for you, though, Drew is more patient than I. He's posted a good definition of the fallacy, and I suggest you read it.

 

[TanNinety]

see what I mean? There just isn't enough in my post for Drew to work with so he makes it up. Sad.

Actually, it is not that apparent. May be you would care to enlighten the forum readers as to how Drew is "making" stuff up from your posts?

Why don't you start pointing out the stuff that Drew made up from your post and it would help us all, because frankly after reading your posts in this thread I completely understand the face that baby is making in your avatar.

Let me show you what I see

If you are implying that the 2nd Law has some influence...

Before Drew misleads you ... I do no such thing. DREW, is reading into my post

Did you deliberately miss the "IF" in Drew's post? The rest of the response from Drew follows "IF" the initial condition of his statement "IF" is true. IF Drew was reading into your post he wouldn't preface his statement with if

Now, your turn to show HOW and WHAT STUFF Drew MADE UP that doesn't belong to your post! I know it's a hard task but give it your best shot.

 

[Drew]

Sorry lovely, but this is also "poisoning the well":

If you hear otherwise, it is not Biblical, and is the vain imaginations of men who have a doctrine that is as old as the deceiver himself.

You are, consciously or not, trying to discredit an opposing opinion by casting aspersions on the person who holds the opinion. The first part "It is not Biblical" is not "poisoning the well" (whether it is correct or not is debatable) but the second part of your sentence is. This is because this second clause contains a very strong implication that those who hold an opposing opinion are in league with Satan.

 

[Drew]

By the way, I have also been guilty of poisoning the well. I once wrote something like: "You need to put on some reality goggles" in response to something JM wrote. This strongly implied something general about JM and not his specific argument. I publically apologize to JM for this.

 

[lovely]

Drew wrote:

You are, consciously or not, trying to discredit an opposing opinion by casting aspersions on the person who holds the opinion. The first part "It is not Biblical" is not "poisoning the well" (whether it is correct or not is debatable) but the second part of your sentence is. This is because this second clause contains a very strong implication that those who hold an opposing opinion are in league with Satan.

No, Drew, you fail to quote me in context, and that is why you believe I am casting aspersions on someone who may merely disagree with my post. I am referring to those who ARE in league with Satan in my post. Those who do not believe in God, or His Word. So, the opinion is not mine, but is God's. He is the one who declares Himself to be TRUE, not me, I just simply believe it. HE is the ONE who declares the WORD to be TRUE, not me, I just simply believe it. HE is the ONE, through His Word, that delcared those in the league with Satan to be those who are full of vain imagination, babblings, the foolish, those who deny His Truth, those who are blind, etc. I am merely someone who believes God, and this is by no efforts of my own. I would still be in a league with Satan, if not for God's grace. So, this is not about my opinion, but about absolute TRUTH of Scripture, of which a believer defends, and cherishes, because it is a treasure, but does not deny because it fails to meet with their vain philosophy. Those who's absolute truth is simply that there is no absolute truth, are blind, because the root of such a belief is outside of the realm of God's Word, and the act of the Holy Spirit on the life of a soul. I am quoting my post once again, and I stand by it .

Ruben,

To some, the secularism, pluralism, and the technologies in all forms, of this world are something to be celebrated. God's laws, and principals, and gift of salvation, are merely restrictive because they inflict shame, annoying because they prohibit a fulfillment of lusts, and are just simply not needed in their minds, because the consequences of sin are being eradicated by man's own power. The world has no need for a Saviour, and that is Satan's deception of man in full bloom, and the sad thing is man believes it is all about him, and his intellect. This is the betterment of man through the eyes of a secularist, but the end of man through the eyes of the Godly. The secularist would prefer that we keep our "religion" private, accept all that they deem is a "right" of the individual, and deny absolute truth, which is the only "absolute" truth that a Godless man adhere's too.

Satan distorts good, making evil. Man is deceived by this, even though the absolute truth of God is before Him, and he knows it, but he loves evil. God has allowed this for His glory, of which the Godly man knows He is all deserving. God has a divine purpose, and knows the future, because His Word says He does. He has provided a simple, yet narrow, path to Him for His creation. We are merely a creation, but He has made believers sons. That is the depth of His love, and even more so it was accomplished through His Son. It is through the sacrifice of His only begotten Son, Jesus. This should make the Godly man grateful in the depths of his soul for the freedom that he has obtained through God's mercy, and love. God knew that man would sin, He knew He would send His Son, and He knows that He will save those who love Him. In fact, He knew/knows every detail of all that will come to pass, and it will serve to glorify Him, fulfill His will, and work out for good to those who have been called according to His purpose, those who love Him. He says all of this in His Word, and you can trust, that even though man was deceived by Satan, God is in control.

If you hear otherwise, it is not Biblical, and is the vain imaginations of men who have a doctrine that is as old as the deceiver himself. The Lord bless you today.

I am speaking of non-believers who love this world, and contrasting their philosophy, which opposes God, to that of a believer who knows the TRUTH of God by means of the Bible, and the Holy Spirit. There is no attempt to discredit anyone here directly, or indirectly, but to highlight God's TRUTH in His Word. I can not draw the conclusions of others, or force others to believe God, or apply His Word, this is not even in my power. But, the power does reside with God, the Holy Spirit, and the Gospel which is good for salvation. I hope to, by God's grace, stay committed to it as a believer, unashamedly, and without fear. If someone loves the world, and opposes God's Word, then they ARE in league with Satan. They are in need of repentance, and I can not discount God's Truth in order to keep them from feeling as if they are a victim of me casting aspersions. I think that the tactics of apologetics are sometimes ridiculous, and do not make sense for the striving to learn God's TRUTH, which is in the heart's desire of a believer. How does the you are casting dispersions defense play out in reality? People are lost, and need to hear the Gospel. I should not assert it, or consider myself a defender of it, because someone may think I am casting aspersions? I am called to be a light, commanded to, in fact. If the content of my post is debatable, then debate it with the Word of God, but to resort to a defense of "you are trying to discredit an opposing opinion by casting aspersions". We all start from the standpoint that what we are saying is true, especially when we can support it with Scripture in a proper context. We are told to be ready to give an answer, that implies tha there is an answer, and it is found in the TRUTH of Scripture. In this case, I am saying that what I have posted is the truth of Scripture, and that those who oppose this truth, oppose God, and are in league with satan. This is the love of God, to honor God's truth, and understand that it can bring salvation to those who do not know Him, and to unashamedly share it with authority that resides in the knowledge of the Holy Spirit. We are instructed to be gentle, and honest, and to do this in love, because some could come to salvation through it. I did, and I am grateful for the preaching that God used to reveal Himself to me. So, if a believer hears something that opposes God's Word, he can rest assured the contradiction is an ear mark of false doctrine, and that it began with the deceiver. The Lord bless you.

 

[gingercat]

Novum, why don't you enlighten me? :D

No. I don't care for your laziness.

Fortunately for you, though, Drew is more patient than I. He's posted a good definition of the fallacy, and I suggest you read it.

I am not being lazy, novum.

I just don't believe I am poisning the well. Probably in your mentality, but not according to the Bible's teachings.

You keep forgetting this is a Christrian forum and most of us are speaking from the Bible's point of view.

 

[Novum]

Novum, why don't you enlighten me? :D

No. I don't care for your laziness.

Fortunately for you, though, Drew is more patient than I. He's posted a good definition of the fallacy, and I suggest you read it.

I am not being lazy, novum.

I just don't believe I am poisning the well.

Because you still, it seems, don't understand what it means. Up the level ginger, you're embarassing yourself.

 

[gingercat]

Novum,

I did not say anything unbiblical. You dont understand because you don't read the Bible. I dont try to understand more than I have to regarding the non-christian world or its knowledge. I was non-believer long enough. Good day, novum.

 

[Novum]

Novum,

I did not say anything unbiblical. You dont understand because you don't read the Bible. I dont try to understand more than I have to regarding the non-christian world or its knowledge. I was non-believer long enough. Good day, novum.

ginger, your inability to comprehend even the basics here is astounding. The problem has nothing to do with the bible, but it has everything to do with your underhanded use of the poisoning the well logical fallacy in order to discredit Drew's argument.

You really ought to familiarise yourself with logical fallacies before you try to participate in a rational discussion.

 

[Vic C.]

To Drew, Novum and others,

It seems we are opposite sides of the meaning of "better". You are referring to material things like advances in science and medicine. To that end, I will agree with you. We are referring to the state of spiritual things like morality, heresy, apostasy, etc. To that end things are not progressing. Our very Bible warns this will happen.

You are confusing quality of life with things spiritual. The two don't always mix. Paul walked around with a "thorn" in his side but he was spiritually healthy. People may walk around in better health and that is even questionable, but most are spiritually void.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

About advances in medicine ans science, I'd like to repeat the quote by Adrian Rogers I am so fond of using:

"You can't purify the water by painting the pump."

 

[Novum]

To Drew, Novum and others,

It seems we are opposite sides of the meaning of "better". You are referring to material things like advances in science and medicine. To that end, I will agree with you.

Good to hear that we're in agreement.

We are referring to the state of spiritual things like morality, heresy, apostasy, etc. To that end things are not progressing.

Okay, that sounds to me like a testable claim. How, then, are you measuring things like "morality", "heresy", and "apostasy"? What are your criteria? What is your evidence?

About advances in medicine ans science, I'd like to repeat the quote by Adrian Rogers I am so fond of using:

"You can't purify the water by painting the pump."

So now you're changing your belief about advances in medicine and science? Which is it, vic?

 

[Vic C.]

We are referring to the state of spiritual things like morality, heresy, apostasy, etc. To that end things are not progressing.

Okay, that sounds to me like a testable claim. How, then, are you measuring things like "morality", "heresy", and "apostasy"? What are your criteria? What is your evidence?

My spiritual discernment, from a Christian point of view and the sad state of all things spiritual in this world.

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

[quote:32ea1]About advances in medicine ans science, I'd like to repeat the quote by Adrian Rogers I am so fond of using:

"You can't purify the water by painting the pump."

So now you're changing your belief about advances in medicine and science? Which is it, vic?[/quote:32ea1]
Both. While things material do seem to getting better, all you are doing is "dressing the pig".

:end of discussion

 

[lovely]

God's Word addresses this:


2 Timothy 3:1-5 and 2 Timothy 3:12-14

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.





12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;




and, God instructs us not to be lovers of this world.

1 John 2:15-17 15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

The Lord bless you.