Are there few who are saved, or a great multitude no one could number?

[Carry_Your_Name]

Well AP
My reply stands.
You just have your own opinion as to what it means.
Was the NT written for everyone?
No trick question.
Oh my.
It refers to the OT....
I do believe that in the verse you provided about Abraham it does mention ALL NATIONS.

So do we use the OT to apply to ALL NATIONS...
or only Israel/the Jews?



Jesus said that even The Law is not abolished.
Did He mean only for the Jews or for ALL NATIONS?

What did He mean anyway?
Seems we Christians can't even agree on that.

Thanks for the exchange.

We don't share a common biblical worldview - Creation, Desacration (or Fall, sin), Redemption and Glorification, in that order. These are the answers to the four ultimate philosophical questions everyone would ask themselves - Where did I come from (origin)? Who am I (identity)? What am I for (purpose)? Where do I go (afterlife)? Every pagan philosophy has their own answers for those, if you don't have a biblical worldview with those four pillars to begin with, you would only use the bible to justify your pre-existing pagan worldview, and that would affect your perspective on everything, including how you read the bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

We don't share a common biblical worldview - Creation, Desacration (or Fall, sin), Redemption and Glorification, in that order. These are the answers to the four ultimate philosophical questions everyone would ask themselves - Where did I come from (origin)? Who am I (identity)? What am I for (purpose)? Where do I go (afterlife)? Every pagan philosophy has their own answers for those, if you don't have a biblical worldview with those four pillars to begin with, you would only use the bible to justify your pre-existing pagan worldview, and that would affect your perspective on everything, including how you read the bible.

Do I have a pagan worldview?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Do I have a pagan worldview?

That's between you and God.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's between you and God.

Thank you Carry.
Much appreciated.

 

[cherithbrook]

Here is my two cents.

I believe that we are all told by God to come in at the narrow gate of salvation through the blood of Christ Jesus in our confession, actions, and full obedience. As saved individuals we must continue to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. This saved group will be of the rapture.

That number of saved souls that no man can count will be those beheaded for the gospel during tribulation. They fail/rejected salvation through the blood of Jesus, so they will have to shed their own blood in order to get saved. Many are going to do just that. Only blood can atone for sins. No one can get into heaven unless their sins have been atoned for.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The passage in luke13:23 is a question being asked by the crowd. It is not a statement being made by Jesus.
Note how Jesus answers the question by telling them to strive to be accepted.
He doesn't answer the question.

Please note I scripture we have reports of lies, immoral behaviour and illegal acts.
Scripture does not say that this behaviour is right or that lies are true, rather it is an accurate record of what happened.

Good point, but Jesus answered the question saying "few find the narrow gate" but "broad" the way to destruction. Jesus is that narrow gate, the only way to God therefore everything else is on the broad way most end up on.

But did God leave it to us to "find it" or does His plan fix the problem? Did God ordain everyone is SHOWN the narrow way, because so few find it on their own?

I think the last is true. Few Find Jesus in this life and achieve a saving faith, so the gospel is preached also to the dead.

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

Of course, those who committed eternal sins are exempted from this.

 

[Tenchi]

I misspoke, its a false dichotomy, not circular. "Few" is in relation to the generation of Jews who Christ personally taught, as history proves "few" of that generation of Jews became Christians. "Uncountable" is in relation to the entire planet, therefore vastly outnumbers the "few".

No, there's no false dichotomy presented in my statements, only the dichotomy Jesus himself put forward.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Jesus did not restrict his meaning here to Jews only. This restriction you must force into his words, not draw out of what he said. Simply by adding "of you" to his statements, Jesus could have confined his meaning to his audience in the way you suppose he had: "...those of you who find it are few." But, as you can see, he didn't. His remarks about the many on the Broad Way and the few on the Narrow Way are completely unqualified.

Only if I'm importing into Scripture a universalist view is it necessary to force Jesus' words above within boundaries amenable to the view. Doing this, doing eisegesis, with Scripture is a very bad practice.

Is there some other place in God's word that would serve as good ground for the restriction you're wanting to force upon Jesus' words? The only other passage that might offer such ground is the following from Luke's Gospel:

Luke 13:23-30
23 And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them,
24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’
26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’
27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’
28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.
29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God.
30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”

So, two things stand out from this passage in regards to the universalist view:

1.) Many will not be able to enter through the Narrow Door (vs. 24), but will be shut out by the Lord, cast out of God's kingdom into a place where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (vs. 28)

2.) Jesus spoke, not solely of Jews, but of people from all four directions of the compass (a figurative way of saying "from everywhere" - vs. 29). Luke confirms, then, in his account of Christ's words above that, in Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus did not restrict his remarks to Jewish folk.

So, then, I haven't put forward a false dichotomy, but the dichotomy Jesus himself established between the many who follow the Broad Way to Destruction and the comparatively few who follow the Narrow Way to Eternal Life.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, there's no false dichotomy presented in my statements, only the dichotomy Jesus himself put forward.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Jesus did not restrict his meaning here to Jews only. This restriction you must force into his words, not draw out of what he said. Simply by adding "of you" to his statements, Jesus could have confined his meaning to his audience in the way you suppose he had: "...those of you who find it are few." But, as you can see, he didn't. His remarks about the many on the Broad Way and the few on the Narrow Way are completely unqualified.

Only if I'm importing into Scripture a universalist view is it necessary to force Jesus' words above within boundaries amenable to the view. Doing this, doing eisegesis, with Scripture is a very bad practice.

Is there some other place in God's word that would serve as good ground for the restriction you're wanting to force upon Jesus' words? The only other passage that might offer such ground is the following from Luke's Gospel:

Luke 13:23-30
23 And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them,
24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’
26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’
27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’
28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.
29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God.
30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”

So, two things stand out from this passage in regards to the universalist view:

1.) Many will not be able to enter through the Narrow Door (vs. 24), but will be shut out by the Lord, cast out of God's kingdom into a place where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (vs. 28)

2.) Jesus spoke, not solely of Jews, but of people from all four directions of the compass (a figurative way of saying "from everywhere" - vs. 29). Luke confirms, then, in his account of Christ's words above that, in Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus did not restrict his remarks to Jewish folk.

So, then, I haven't put forward a false dichotomy, but the dichotomy Jesus himself established between the many who follow the Broad Way to Destruction and the comparatively few who follow the Narrow Way to Eternal Life.

Simple question. How many people on Judgment Day will say "we ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets?" Can Americans say that? How about Africans?

I'm not a universalist, those who committed eternal sins like accepting the Mark of the Beast, will be many.

 

[Alfred Persson]

16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
(Jn. 3:16-17 NKJ)

If salvation is only for the few who find it, John 3:16-17 is contradicted. God loves the world, but He loves His only begotten Son infinitely more.

But we are told God leaves it up to us to find the narrow door? That doesn't show love for Christ or the world.

It doesn't "compute" He wouldn't make certain everyone found the narrow door, so they can make their own choice whether to walk through it or not.

No business man, convinced of the public demand (need, desire), wouldn't "four wall advertise" to make certain all who need it, learn of its existence. So why would God do that, not advertise to all, and worse. Leave out those unlucky who were born at a time or place where Christ was not preached? That wouldn't show love for Christ or the world. Given Christ's love for lost sheep, one would think God would make sure all of them are found.

3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:
4 "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
5 "And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them,`Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
7 "I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. (Lk. 15:3-7 NKJ)

 

[kjw47]

23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Lk. 13:23-24 NKJ)

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev. 7:9-10 NKJ)

All Scripture is inspired by God and therefore is 100% truth (2 Tim. 3:16-17; John 17:17; Dan. 10:21); truth cannot contradict itself. Therefore, both statements are true: Few are saved and no one can number the saved.

When two statements of scripture seem to be in contradiction, the correct context will prove the contradiction was "apparent" only, not "real." Just a "paradox".

So, what is the context where "only a few are saved" but "no one could number" those saved?

There are 2 separate groups mentioned to be saved, yet one flock. 1) the little flock( Luke 12:32) these are the anointed bride of Christ, numbered( Rev 14:3-144,000 bought from the earth to serve as kings and priests on thrones in heaven beside Jesus( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)
And the great crowd( Rev 7:9) of other sheep( John 10:16) who are not of that -(fold=( little flock)--These are promised to live on earth forever,( Matt 5:5, Psalm 37:29, Prov 2:21-22)- they are not promised heaven anywhere. So even though they are called a great crowd, Jesus teaches-FEW will find the road that leads off into life. Possibly 8 million give or take out of 8 billion.
The reason why its FEW is because 99% of all religion on earth is false religion, that includes 99% of those claiming to be christian religion are false.

 

[Alfred Persson]

There are 2 separate groups mentioned to be saved, yet one flock. 1) the little flock( Luke 12:32) these are the anointed bride of Christ, numbered( Rev 14:3-144,000 bought from the earth to serve as kings and priests on thrones in heaven beside Jesus( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)
And the great crowd( Rev 7:9) of other sheep( John 10:16) who are not of that -(fold=( little flock)--These are promised to live on earth forever,( Matt 5:5, Psalm 37:29, Prov 2:21-22)- they are not promised heaven anywhere. So even though they are called a great crowd, Jesus teaches-FEW will find the road that leads off into life. Possibly 8 million give or take out of 8 billion.
The reason why its FEW is because 99% of all religion on earth is false religion, that includes 99% of those claiming to be christian religion are false.

How do you reconcile the two groups, in essence "two bodies" having "two faiths" and "two hopes" about their service in the coming Kingdom, with this scripture:

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph. 4:4-6 NKJ)

Logically, "one" is not "two". This 100% truth of God states there is only one hope, not two hopes: one serving in heaven with Christ and another hope for serving Him on earth.

Only one faith, not two: a faith in life with Christ, wherever He may be; and another faith serving on earth as farmers etc..

One baptism to become a child of God, not two baptisms to become either spirit creatures in heaven or physical workers on earth.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Here is my two cents.

I believe that we are all told by God to come in at the narrow gate of salvation through the blood of Christ Jesus in our confession, actions, and full obedience. As saved individuals we must continue to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. This saved group will be of the rapture.

That number of saved souls that no man can count will be those beheaded for the gospel during tribulation. They fail/rejected salvation through the blood of Jesus, so they will have to shed their own blood in order to get saved. Many are going to do just that. Only blood can atone for sins. No one can get into heaven unless their sins have been atoned for.

Your theory about being saved apart from Christ directly contradicts He is the Narrow door all must walk through, and everything else is the broad way.

But there is also an internal inconsistency in your tribulation saint theory, why would they choose to be martyrs if they didn't believe in Christ, the narrow door?

If they believed there were other ways to God, that didn't involve martyrdom...why would they cling to Christ and be beheaded?

 

[Who Me]

Did God ordain everyone is SHOWN the narrow way, because so few find it on their own?

It is God who saves, whether from foreknowledge or predestination we are slaves to Satan and to sin. We cannot save ourselves but can only respond when our chains are broken.

 

[Tenchi]

Simple question. How many people on Judgment Day will say "we ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets?" Can Americans say that? How about Africans?

Luke 13:23-29
23 And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them,
24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Not "many of you," just "many."

25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’

"Master of the house"? "Has shut the door"? What Master? Whose house? What door? Obviously, Jesus is speaking figuratively here of the Final Judgment, but his audience gives no hint they understood that he was speaking solely about them, nor does Jesus offer any clear restriction to this effect. It's doubtful his audience could make much sense at all of his talk of a Master and a shut door.

26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’

This seems very obviously to be a self-referential statement, those who come late to the Master's house after the door is shut realizing that the Master is Jesus, the one speaking to them this parable, who, for a time, walked, talked and healed in the streets of their own city, eating with them, even, as the Pharisees accused him of doing (Matthew 9:10-12). Does any of this restrict Jesus's parable only to his original audience? Not that I can see.

27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’
28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.

Knowing his audience, Jesus spoke directly to their misplaced confidence in their religious heritage, pointing out that it was no proof against the coming Judgment that would see them cast out into the place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth." Does Jesus offer any careful boundaries on the extent of the application of his remarks here? Does he limit the scope of what he's saying only to Jews? No.

29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God.

This remark here very obviously casts a wide net, as far as the application of Christ's words are concerned. From the four directions of the compass (which is to say, "From everywhere") people - not just Jews - will recline at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb in God's eternal kingdom. It is from this all-inclusive pool of human beings that "many will seek to enter and not be able" and "few there will be" who find the Narrow Way. (Matthew 7:13-14) And so, it seems pretty plain to me that it is entirely correct to assert what I - and others in this thread - have said, which is that there will be comparatively few who find the Narrow Way to Life.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Luke 13:23-29
23 And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them,
24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Not "many of you," just "many."

25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’

"Master of the house"? "Has shut the door"? What Master? Whose house? What door? Obviously, Jesus is speaking figuratively here of the Final Judgment, but his audience gives no hint they understood that he was speaking solely about them, nor does Jesus offer any clear restriction to this effect. It's doubtful his audience could make much sense at all of his talk of a Master and a shut door.

26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’

This seems very obviously to be a self-referential statement, those who come late to the Master's house after the door is shut realizing that the Master is Jesus, the one speaking to them this parable, who, for a time, walked, talked and healed in the streets of their own city, eating with them, even, as the Pharisees accused him of doing (Matthew 9:10-12). Does any of this restrict Jesus's parable only to his original audience? Not that I can see.

27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’
28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.

Knowing his audience, Jesus spoke directly to their misplaced confidence in their religious heritage, pointing out that it was no proof against the coming Judgment that would see them cast out into the place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth." Does Jesus offer any careful boundaries on the extent of the application of his remarks here? Does he limit the scope of what he's saying only to Jews? No.

29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God.

This remark here very obviously casts a wide net, as far as the application of Christ's words are concerned. From the four directions of the compass (which is to say, "From everywhere") people - not just Jews - will recline at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb in God's eternal kingdom. It is from this all-inclusive pool of human beings that "many will seek to enter and not be able" and "few there will be" who find the Narrow Way. (Matthew 7:13-14) And so, it seems pretty plain to me that it is entirely correct to assert what I - and others in this thread - have said, which is that there will be comparatively few who find the Narrow Way to Life.

Eisegesis. Jesus contrasted the evil and wicked generation of Jews who rejected the narrow door (Christ), who nevertheless on Judgment day would plead for mercy by having Jesus recall when He ate and drank with them, with the Gentiles from the four corners of the World who wouldn't reject Him.

Few of them would be saved. Compare:

20 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench, Till He sends forth justice to victory;
21 And in His name Gentiles will trust." (Matt. 12:20-21 NKJ)

5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ.
6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, "Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles." (Acts 18:5-6 NKJ)

 

[Tenchi]

Eisegesis.

Nope. If anything, it's you who's doing eisegesis.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Nope. If anything, it's you who's doing eisegesis.

29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God.

This remark here very obviously casts a wide net, as far as the application of Christ's words are concerned. From the four directions of the compass (which is to say, "From everywhere") people - not just Jews - will recline at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb in God's eternal kingdom. It is from this all-inclusive pool of human beings that "many will seek to enter and not be able" and "few there will be" who find the Narrow Way.

If Christ were applying "few are saved" to the four corners of the earth, He would not have mentioned how the generation He taught would act on Judgment Day. That part wouldn't exist:

23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying,`Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you,`I do not know you, where you are from,'
26 "then you will begin to say,`We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'
27 "But He will say,`I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
28 "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
29 "They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. (Lk. 13:23-29 NKJ)

The few Jews saved excludes those unbelievers Christ was talking to; they wouldn't be sitting with the many saved from the four corners of the earth.

 

[Tenchi]

If Christ were applying "few are saved" to the four corners of the earth, He would not have mentioned how the generation He taught would act on Judgment Day. That part wouldn't exist

Jesus didn't refer to a generation. He referred to his immediate audience, yes (vs. 25, 26), but not to an entire, particularly Jewish, generation. And he also referred to a far broader expanse of humanity (vs. 23, 29). In so doing, Jesus encompassed both his original listeners and the world in general in his remarks.

As far as I'm concerned, only if you've got a pre-existing commitment to a semi-universalist view would the contortions to Christ's words that you're making ever occur to someone reading the passage in question.

 

[cherithbrook]

Your theory about being saved apart from Christ directly contradicts He is the Narrow door all must walk through, and everything else is the broad way.

But there is also an internal inconsistency in your tribulation saint theory, why would they choose to be martyrs if they didn't believe in Christ, the narrow door?

If they believed there were other ways to God, that didn't involve martyrdom...why would they cling to Christ and be beheaded?

It's really unfortunate that you're so quick to throw negative words; {contradict, inconsistency}... if you need a better understanding just ask without the negative overtones. Are you ever positive about anything because you should really exercise the use of a different approach?

1. I do not have a theory of being saved apart from Christ. Why would you make up such a lie?
I previously stated, "I believe that we are all told by God to come in at the narrow gate of salvation through the blood of Christ Jesus in our confession, actions, and full obedience. As saved individuals we must continue to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. This saved group will be of the rapture." Nothing about that has anything to do with being saved apart from Christ. Stop lying on people!

2. I do not have a tribulation saint theory. Stop with theses lies of yours. I'm telling you the truth of God's Word. Those who are currently rejecting salvation through Christ Jesus... if Jesus came today they would NOT get raptured. They would remain on earth. The door to salvation by the blood of Jesus closes once the rapture takes place. Understand that.

However, once tribulation begins and those "left behind" suffer... "SOME" (not all) will reject the mark of the beast, and they will turn to God. All of this is in the Holy Bible in Revelation. They fail to get saved when they should have so the door to salvation by Jesus' shed blood closes in Revelation chapter 4. "SOME" (not all) of those left behind MUST shed their own blood in order to get into heaven if they choose God during the tribulation. As their sins have not been atoned for by Jesus- they must shed their own blood to atone for their own sins. They "WILL" get beheaded once they refuse the mark of the beast in favor of God. They are of the great multitude no man can number -Revelation 7:9.

Others who do accept the mark of the beast they will all burn in hell eternally.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It's really unfortunate that you're so quick to throw negative words; {contradict, inconsistency}... if you need a better understanding just ask without the negative overtones. Are you ever positive about anything because you should really exercise the use of a different approach?

1. I do not have a theory of being saved apart from Christ. Why would you make up such a lie?
I previously stated, "I believe that we are all told by God to come in at the narrow gate of salvation through the blood of Christ Jesus in our confession, actions, and full obedience. As saved individuals we must continue to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. This saved group will be of the rapture." Nothing about that has anything to do with being saved apart from Christ. Stop lying on people!

2. I do not have a tribulation saint theory. Stop with theses lies of yours. I'm telling you the truth of God's Word. Those who are currently rejecting salvation through Christ Jesus... if Jesus came today they would NOT get raptured. They would remain on earth. The door to salvation by the blood of Jesus closes once the rapture takes place. Understand that.

However, once tribulation begins and those "left behind" suffer... "SOME" (not all) will reject the mark of the beast, and they will turn to God. All of this is in the Holy Bible in Revelation. They fail to get saved when they should have so the door to salvation by Jesus' shed blood closes in Revelation chapter 4. "SOME" (not all) of those left behind MUST shed their own blood in order to get into heaven if they choose God during the tribulation. As their sins have not been atoned for by Jesus- they must shed their own blood to atone for their own sins. They "WILL" get beheaded once they refuse the mark of the beast in favor of God. They are of the great multitude no man can number -Revelation 7:9.

Others who do accept the mark of the beast they will all burn in hell eternally.

I apologize for any offense, its unintended. I still disagree, the infinite merit of Christ is available to all who come into existence, except those who commit eternal sins. If someone repents and believes after the rapture, they will be born again. Its likely the rapture is a major cause why so many saints come out of the Tribulation, everyone then realized scripture is 100% truth:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
16 "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
17 "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." (Rev. 7:9-8:1 NKJ)