Are there few who are saved, or a great multitude no one could number?

[cherithbrook]

I apologize for any offense, its unintended. I still disagree, the infinite merit of Christ is available to all who come into existence, except those who commit eternal sins. If someone repents and believes after the rapture, they will be born again. Its likely the rapture is a major cause why so many saints come out of the Tribulation, everyone then realized scripture is 100% truth:

apology accepted

Understand that as you say, "the infinite merit of Christ is available to all who come into existence"... it's available. Just like coffee, tea, milk, and sodas are available, but not every choses to drink any of that. Likewise, not everyone will choose Jesus. Choosing Jesus is available but they do not want Jesus sanctification agenda of flee fornication, flee youthful lusts, obey God, etc... They do not want, and they flat out reject... Jesus' do not be entangled again with a yoke on bondage -Galatians 5:1

You just mentioned eternal sin???

Understand, there is no such thing as an "eternal sin" I have no idea where you got that from. Blasphemy is known as the unforgivable sin.

Plural meaning more than one or all..... When one refuses to accept Jesus whose blood paid the price for our sins; God says they will die in their sins (plural) ALL of their sins.

John 8:24

 

[Alfred Persson]

apology accepted

Understand that as you say, "the infinite merit of Christ is available to all who come into existence"... it's available. Just like coffee, tea, milk, and sodas are available, but not every choses to drink any of that. Likewise, not everyone will choose Jesus. Choosing Jesus is available but they do not want Jesus sanctification agenda of flee fornication, flee youthful lusts, obey God, etc... They do not want, and they flat out reject... Jesus' do not be entangled again with a yoke on bondage -Galatians 5:1

You just mentioned eternal sin???

Understand, there is no such thing as an "eternal sin" I have no idea where you got that from. Blasphemy is known as the unforgivable sin.

Plural meaning more than one or all..... When one refuses to accept Jesus whose blood paid the price for our sins; God says they will die in their sins (plural) ALL of their sins.

John 8:24

Unlike many Christians, I believe God reveals everything to the unsaved when they die. There is a judgment, and the Gospel of Christ, the reality of being unsaved, is 100% known. Those who repent and believe in Christ remain in Hades, but protected from any torments and will rise with the Church at the rapture:

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:26-28 NKJ)

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-18 NKJ)

Christ brings the souls in Abraham's Bosum (third heaven/paradise) with Him during His second coming. Their souls plus those in Hades who accepted Christ are then raised from the dead, when "He will appear a second time apart from sin, for salvation" (Heb. 9:28), "the dead in Christ will rise first" (1 Th. 4:16).

For more on this:

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Postmortem Opportunity in Biblical Perspective: A New Argument Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans Life and the Afterlife The Fate of those who die unevangelized has been debated ever since the Apostles departed to be with Christ. Did God create knowing the opportunity for...

endtimenews.net

ETERNAL SIN:
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "- (Mk. 3:29 NAU)

Other eternal sins are accepting the Mark of the Beast or worshipping the Beast:

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:9-11 NKJ)

Stumbling a Child of God so they fail believe in Christ. Pedophilia by priests and others has done that to some children:

42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
44 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
46 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire--
48 "where`Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' (Mk. 9:42-48 NKJ)

This isn't a complete list.

Some suppose everyone would repent upon death in Hades, if given the chance. But in the early church fathers it was discussed that once free of the flesh, the soul is left unable to mispresent itself. The wicked cannot pretend to be righteous, nor would the righteous once freed of any slavery of sin, choose wickedness.


Clement of Alexandria (150–215) Christian teacher at Alexandria who spent his twilight years with his friend Alexander when he became bishop of Jerusalem, had this to say about souls in Hades:

Clement of Alexandria. (1885). The Stromata, or Miscellanies. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) (Vol. 2, pp. 490–492). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.

What then? Did not the same dispensation obtain in Hades, so that even there, all the souls, on hearing the proclamation, might either exhibit repentance, or confess that their punishment was just, because they believed not? And it were the exercise of no ordinary arbitrariness, for those who had departed before the advent of the Lord (not having the Gospel preached to them, and having afforded no ground from themselves, in consequence of believing or not) to obtain either salvation or punishment. For it is not right that these should be condemned without trial, and that those alone who lived after the advent should have the advantage of the divine righteousness

Clement of Alexandria. (1885). The Stromata, or Miscellanies. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) (Vol. 2, p. 491). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Some suppose everyone would repent upon death in Hades, if given the chance. But in the early church fathers it was discussed that once free of the flesh, the soul is left unable to mispresent itself. The wicked cannot pretend to be righteous, nor would the righteous once freed of any slavery of sin, choose wickedness.

That a judgment occurred after they died is reported by some in this video on death. They say they reviewed their lives and with Genuis like clarity they saw and fully realized their errors, and in effect agreed with the Judgment against them:

Go to Frame: 25:00

 

[kjw47]

How do you reconcile the two groups, in essence "two bodies" having "two faiths" and "two hopes" about their service in the coming Kingdom, with this scripture:

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph. 4:4-6 NKJ)

Logically, "one" is not "two". This 100% truth of God states there is only one hope, not two hopes: one serving in heaven with Christ and another hope for serving Him on earth.

Only one faith, not two: a faith in life with Christ, wherever He may be; and another faith serving on earth as farmers etc..

One baptism to become a child of God, not two baptisms to become either spirit creatures in heaven or physical workers on earth.

John 10:16 shows separate hopes yet one flock. Its why one group is called the little flock, and the other the great crowd.

 

[Alfred Persson]

John 10:16 shows separate hopes yet one flock. Its why one group is called the little flock, and the other the great crowd.

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. (Jn. 10:16 NKJ)

"This fold" are the Jews He is speaking to. Therefore, the "other sheep" must be the Gentiles. A "flock" stays together, go to the same place. Therefore, it contradicts the Bible to say there are "two hopes" here, for "two classes" of Christians, one a "heavenly hope as spirit creatures" and the other an earthly paradise for farm workers.

Scripture interprets Scripture:

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. (Eph. 2:11-16 NKJ)

"One body" can't be split into two, the "head" becoming spirit creatures, and the rest of the body on "paradise earth" tilling the land. A "flock" stays together, go the same place.

 

[kjw47]

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. (Jn. 10:16 NKJ)

"This fold" are the Jews He is speaking to. Therefore, the "other sheep" must be the Gentiles. A "flock" stays together, go to the same place. Therefore, it contradicts the Bible to say there are "two hopes" here, for "two classes" of Christians, one a "heavenly hope as spirit creatures" and the other an earthly paradise for farm workers.

Scripture interprets Scripture:

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. (Eph. 2:11-16 NKJ)

"One body" can't be split into two, the "head" becoming spirit creatures, and the rest of the body on "paradise earth" tilling the land. A "flock" stays together, go the same place.

It is the little flock he is speaking about. =The 144,000 bought from the earth( Rev 14:3) = the anointed bride who will sit on thrones as kings and priests alongside of Jesus( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)--The great crowd is not of that fold.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It is the little flock he is speaking about. =The 144,000 bought from the earth( Rev 14:3) = the anointed bride who will sit on thrones as kings and priests alongside of Jesus( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)--The great crowd is not of that fold.

In context, Jesus is speaking to the little flock (His Jewish Disciples), about the Gentiles that will come later.

Nothing in the context connects this to the 144,000. Nothing in Revelation connects the 144,000 to the "little flock".

Without any scriptural connection, the proposition the "little flock" are the 144,000 is unwarranted and commonly called "eisegesis".

When someone reads other books that use scripture for "proof texts" only, they become blind to what scripture is revealing. Ironically, Charles Taze Russell admitted this when in effect he labels Bible revelation "darkness" but his own writings "the divine plan":

"Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years---if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness."-The Watchtower, from Sept. 15, 1910


Just as we don't need the Catholic Magisterium to understand the Bible, or the Book of Mormon, we don't need the Watchtower.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

If scripture couldn't thoroughly equip us with the knowledge of God and His kingdom, Paul would have said so.

Its absurd to suppose Jehovah God, being infinite in intelligence and wisdom, didn't author a book that perfectly reveals all He wants us to know, about Himself and Jesus our Savior and LORD:

but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn. 20:31 NKJ)

Jehovah's Witnesses are not believers in Scripture. They only use scripture (OUT OF CONTEXT) to "prove" the Watchtower's Teaching:


14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people."
17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you."
18 "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty." (2 Cor. 6:14-18 NKJ)

 

[kjw47]

In context, Jesus is speaking to the little flock (His Jewish Disciples), about the Gentiles that will come later.

Nothing in the context connects this to the 144,000. Nothing in Revelation connects the 144,000 to the "little flock".

Without any scriptural connection, the proposition the "little flock" are the 144,000 is unwarranted and commonly called "eisegesis".

When someone reads other books that use scripture for "proof texts" only, they become blind to what scripture is revealing. Ironically, Charles Taze Russell admitted this when in effect he labels Bible revelation "darkness" but his own writings "the divine plan":

"Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years---if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness."-The Watchtower, from Sept. 15, 1910


Just as we don't need the Catholic Magisterium to understand the Bible, or the Book of Mormon, we don't need the Watchtower.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

If scripture couldn't thoroughly equip us with the knowledge of God and His kingdom, Paul would have said so.

Its absurd to suppose Jehovah God, being infinite in intelligence and wisdom, didn't author a book that perfectly reveals all He wants us to know, about Himself and Jesus our Savior and LORD:

but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn. 20:31 NKJ)

Jehovah's Witnesses are not believers in Scripture. They only use scripture (OUT OF CONTEXT) to "prove" the Watchtower's Teaching:


14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people."
17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you."
18 "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty." (2 Cor. 6:14-18 NKJ)

Facts connect it--The little flock is numbered=144,000
The great crowd=( Rev 7:9) no man can number---Only those 2 groups are getting saved, thus the little flock has to be the 144,000.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Facts connect it--The little flock is numbered=144,000
The great crowd=( Rev 7:9) no man can number---Only those 2 groups are getting saved, thus the little flock has to be the 144,000.

Irrelevant facts prove nothing. Fact: a "little flock" exists. Fact: "144,000 come out of the Great Tribulation"; Fact: "Every eye will see Christ's return (Rev. 1:7); Fact: Christ's coming will be as visible as a lightning storm flashing from east to west (Matt. 24:27 NKJ)

What do these facts prove? Nothing, there is nothing connecting them that leads to a conclusion.

But if there is a logical connection, then a conclusion can be made. Christ's return won't be seen by "spiritual eyes only", because it will be as visible as a lightening storm flashing in the sky:

"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. (Matt. 24:27 NKJ)

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev. 1:7 NKJ)

As for the proposition only two groups are saved, that is clearly wrong:

We see that in the Sheep and Goat parable. Christ's brethren, already saved were seated with Him during this judgment. He points to them when talking to the sheep and goats. After this judgment, the rest of the earth's population that survived Armageddon enter Christ's 1,000 year kingdom, to see if they will be saved also:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 `for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 `I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:31-46 NKJ)

That was a judgment of Christendom, those who didn't commit to Christ before He landed on earth. Only the sheep enter, the goats are cast away.

But then the rest of the earth's population must be judged, all who survived Armageddon. Those who didn't commit eternal sins are permitted to enter Christ's millennial kingdom, to be tested once again by Satan at the end of the 1,000 years:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev. 20:7-9 NKJ)

To the above groups, more are added. Death and Hell release their dead and some of them are written into the book of life:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

 

[kjw47]

Irrelevant facts prove nothing. Fact: a "little flock" exists. Fact: "144,000 come out of the Great Tribulation"; Fact: "Every eye will see Christ's return (Rev. 1:7); Fact: Christ's coming will be as visible as a lightning storm flashing from east to west (Matt. 24:27 NKJ)

What do these facts prove? Nothing, there is nothing connecting them that leads to a conclusion.

But if there is a logical connection, then a conclusion can be made. Christ's return won't be seen by "spiritual eyes only", because it will be as visible as a lightening storm flashing in the sky:

"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. (Matt. 24:27 NKJ)

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. (Rev. 1:7 NKJ)

As for the proposition only two groups are saved, that is clearly wrong:

We see that in the Sheep and Goat parable. Christ's brethren, already saved were seated with Him during this judgment. He points to them when talking to the sheep and goats. After this judgment, the rest of the earth's population that survived Armageddon enter Christ's 1,000 year kingdom, to see if they will be saved also:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 `for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 `I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:31-46 NKJ)

That was a judgment of Christendom, those who didn't commit to Christ before He landed on earth. Only the sheep enter, the goats are cast away.

But then the rest of the earth's population must be judged, all who survived Armageddon. Those who didn't commit eternal sins are permitted to enter Christ's millennial kingdom, to be tested once again by Satan at the end of the 1,000 years:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev. 20:7-9 NKJ)

To the above groups, more are added. Death and Hell release their dead and some of them are written into the book of life:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

Only the 2 groups get saved. The wicked perish at Rev 19:11- God already judged sin= the wages of sin = death. He cannot rejudge one on past sins once dead. Romans 6:7 acquitted of all sin at death. The resurrected get a 2nd chance to learn and apply Gods will, then satan gets loosed to test their faith. What a loving God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Only the 2 groups get saved. The wicked perish at Rev 19:11- God already judged sin= the wages of sin = death. He cannot rejudge one on past sins once dead. Romans 6:7 acquitted of all sin at death. The resurrected get a 2nd chance to learn and apply Gods will, then satan gets loosed to test their faith. What a loving God.

When Christ and His holy myriads come through the opening in the sky, its to destroy the Beast and his armies on the mountains of Israel. Then Satan is imprisoned in the bottomless pit, and both false prophet and Beast cast body and soul into Gehenna, also known as the "lake of Fire".

Judgment Day happens after the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Read Revelation chapter 20 without laying upon it Watchtower nonsense. Judgment Day happens at the end of the chapter, when the hell the Watchotwer doesn't believe in, releases the souls the Watchtower doesn't believe exist:

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev. 20:13 NKJ)

The Society doesn't have a clue what scripture teaches, they have their own books and these, sadly, are far from the truth of scripture.

If the Watchtower Society really believed God, then they would go door to door selling Bibles alone, not Watchtowers. Because it is written, God inspired scripture to make people of God complete. Nothing else is on that level:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Good point, but Jesus answered the question saying "few find the narrow gate" but "broad" the way to destruction. Jesus is that narrow gate, the only way to God therefore everything else is on the broad way most end up on.

But did God leave it to us to "find it" or does His plan fix the problem? Did God ordain everyone is SHOWN the narrow way, because so few find it on their own?

God does leave it to us to ACCEPT the narrow gate - over the broad way that leads to destruction, which is any other religion, philosophe or ideology that sells salvation, including Catholism, Mormonism and other cults with a Christian label. Most people are born and raised in the environment of that "board way", that's all they've ever known. God does present this narraw gate of Jesus to you, and the Holy Spirit points you to it, whether you follow the Holy Spirit towards it is your personal responsibility.

 

[Alfred Persson]

God does leave it to us to ACCEPT the narrow gate - over the broad way that leads to destruction, which is any other religion, philosophe or ideology that sells salvation, including Catholism, Mormonism and other cults with a Christian label. Most people are born and raised in the environment of that "board way", that's all they've ever known. God does present this narraw gate of Jesus to you, and the Holy Spirit points you to it, whether you follow the Holy Spirit towards it is your personal responsibility.

That argument rewrote "find" to "accept", and logically proceeds from there. But that isn't the scripture text.

I agree we all must choose, we accept God's truth and believe in His narrow door for salvation, Jesus Christ.

But that isn't pertinent to God showing the narrow door to everyone who dies, lest there only be a few saved from all the earth and not just from the generation alive when Jesus preached.

 

[kjw47]

When Christ and His holy myriads come through the opening in the sky, its to destroy the Beast and his armies on the mountains of Israel. Then Satan is imprisoned in the bottomless pit, and both false prophet and Beast cast body and soul into Gehenna, also known as the "lake of Fire".

Judgment Day happens after the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Read Revelation chapter 20 without laying upon it Watchtower nonsense. Judgment Day happens at the end of the chapter, when the hell the Watchotwer doesn't believe in, releases the souls the Watchtower doesn't believe exist:

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev. 20:13 NKJ)

The Society doesn't have a clue what scripture teaches, they have their own books and these, sadly, are far from the truth of scripture.

If the Watchtower Society really believed God, then they would go door to door selling Bibles alone, not Watchtowers. Because it is written, God inspired scripture to make people of God complete. Nothing else is on that level:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

Yes judgement happens at the end of the chapter, Everything is back to perfection at that point, any failing satans final test get destroyed forever, those who pass the final test get their names written in Gods book of life. Rev 21 begins-a new heaven and new earth= Gods kingdom rule in full control of all creation forever, everything back to perfection. Thus Jesus hands the kingdom back to his God and Father and subjects himself( 1Cor 15:24-28)= forever.
God is in subjection to none ever proving Jesus is not God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That argument rewrote "find" to "accept", and logically proceeds from there. But that isn't the scripture text.

So? Finding Jesus is one thing, accepting him is another. "Many are called, but few are chosen." Just because it's not written verbatim doesn't mean it's not there.

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Jn. 6:66-69)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes judgement happens at the end of the chapter, Everything is back to perfection at that point, any failing satans final test get destroyed forever, those who pass the final test get their names written in Gods book of life. Rev 21 begins-a new heaven and new earth= Gods kingdom rule in full control of all creation forever, everything back to perfection. Thus Jesus hands the kingdom back to his God and Father and subjects himself( 1Cor 15:24-28)= forever.
God is in subjection to none ever proving Jesus is not God.

That isn't what Revelation says. Just as the Goats were cast into eternal flame before Judgment Day (Mt. 25:41-46), so also those fire from heaven devoured: Gog and Magog:

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev. 20:9 NKJ)

Their Judgment is done. They got their reward.

The Great White Throne Judges those still alive from Christ's millennial Kingdom, and then all those risen from Death and Hades:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

Then God creates the New Heavens and New Earth, and New Jerusalem comes down to planet earth and God dwells with mankind on earth, as He did before in heaven:

21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. (Rev. 21:1-3 NKJ)

This isn't "paradise earth", its far better:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. (1 Cor. 2:7-10 NKJ)

 

[cherithbrook]

Unlike many Christians, I believe God reveals everything to the unsaved when they die.

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

1. God has revealed everything to us now while we are on earth living. It is revealed in His Holy Bible. One must pray to God for God to open their understanding of His Word, or else they will read it and claim it reveals nothing; just as you are now doing.

2. The scripture you posted about the gospel being preached to those who are dead... that is speaking of people who are dead in their unawareness and knowledge of God's Word. It's not referring to those dead in the grave.

You lean to your own understanding rather than asking God for His understanding.

 

[Alfred Persson]

1. God has revealed everything to us now while we are on earth living. It is revealed in His Holy Bible. One must pray to God for God to open their understanding of His Word, or else they will read it and claim it reveals nothing; just as you are now doing.

2. The scripture you posted about the gospel being preached to those who are dead... that is speaking of people who are dead in their unawareness and knowledge of God's Word. It's not referring to those dead in the grave.

You lean to your own understanding rather than asking God for His understanding.

Temporal and geographical luck enabled some of the earth, some of the time to hear the gospel. Most humans born into this world have not heard it while alive. If they didn't hear it when they died, they never would. Just recently a tribe of humans in the rain forest was found who never had any contact with civilization.

Its inconsistent with God's perfections and love for both Jesus and humanity, a miserly few throughout time heard the gospel. I cited scripture showing His sacrifice was timeless, and scripture showing the gospel is preached to the dead so no one misses the opportunity to be saved.

Catholics set the tone on limiting the opportunity to be saved, and Protestants are oddly faithful to their lead, against the plain meaning of scripture.

 

[Alfred Persson]

2. The scripture you posted about the gospel being preached to those who are dead... that is speaking of people who are dead in their unawareness and knowledge of God's Word. It's not referring to those dead in the grave.

You lean to your own understanding rather than asking God for His understanding.

Incorrect. I rely on exegesis for my understanding. 1 Peter 4:6 for example. Lets look at the context:

3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles-- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:3-6 NKJ)

Unbelievers mocked Christians for not continuing in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness etc. They thought it "strange" anyone would give up these pleasures for Christ, and sensing criticism of their dissipation they spoke evil of believers.

Peter says they will give an account to God for their evil reaction to the gospel, for He is ready to judge the living and the dead.

"Living and dead" refers to physically living and dead throughout the NT (Acts 10:42; 2 Tim. 4:1; 1 Pet. 4:5), not spiritually dead. Therefore, when Peter says the gospel is preached ALSO to the dead, he is speaking about physically dead people.

While alive they rejected the gospel of Christ. It is implied their ignorance about God led to this. Therefore, the Gospel is preached ALSO to the dead, so they can be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit.

That Peter means the dead in Hades will be preached to, followed his report that Christ preached to spirits in prison during the time His soul was in Hades:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, (1 Pet. 3:18-19 NKJ)

The Catholic Magisterium didn't like the idea, so they ruled against it. Protestants, like loyal Catholics, maintain the denial of the plain meaning of scripture.

But its irrational they do this. Throughout history these same people have tried to "create another doorway to God" because so few people heard the gospel it means pathetically few are saved. They feel compelled to make the narrow door of Christ wider, through other religious belief or acts of piety. And of course children are given a free pass.

However, scripture is clear, no one is saved apart from the narrow door that is faith in Jesus Christ.

Therefore, the rational thing to do is accept the scripture revelation God offers salvation to everyone who dies, whenever or wherever that happened. It follows infants and children who die unsaved immediately mature upon physical death to they can make their free will choice to believe in Jesus for their salvation. No one is saved apart from Christ. That is consistent with God's love both for Jesus and Humanity. Only the wicked will be eternally lost, only those who committed eternal sins are exempted from the universal opportunity to be saved.

Instead of heretical notions about people being saved in non-Christian religions, or because their piety, Why not believe the apostle Peter that the gospel is preached ALSO to the dead so everyone has the opportunity to believe it?

Unlocking the Gates of Immortality: Billions Poised for a Resurrection to Eternity! | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

As a Christian apologist, my purpose is to defend the truth of the Bible. In this article we will delve into specific passages of the Bible that, upon careful examination, present an alternative perspective on postmortem opportunity. By analyzing these verses in their historical and cultural...

endtimenews.net

 

[kjw47]

That isn't what Revelation says. Just as the Goats were cast into eternal flame before Judgment Day (Mt. 25:41-46), so also those fire from heaven devoured: Gog and Magog:

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev. 20:9 NKJ)

Their Judgment is done. They got their reward.

The Great White Throne Judges those still alive from Christ's millennial Kingdom, and then all those risen from Death and Hades:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

Then God creates the New Heavens and New Earth, and New Jerusalem comes down to planet earth and God dwells with mankind on earth, as He did before in heaven:

21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. (Rev. 21:1-3 NKJ)

This isn't "paradise earth", its far better:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. (1 Cor. 2:7-10 NKJ)

Matt 25:41-46 says nothing about before judgement day. In fact its clearly showing it is judgement day when that occurs.
It sure is paradise earth just as i described it. See 21:2 Coming down out of heaven to the earth obviously.
The new Jerusalem is the bride.=144,000--Jerusalem was where Gods king sat on his throne. Its comparing Jerusalem to those kings. It means Gods kingdom rule in full control forever.