Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

[stovebolts]

God doesn't Create evil.

Really?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Exodus 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

 

[Jim Parker]

Crookedness.

"Crookedness" is not a sin.
A sin is, by definition, a act.
Crookedness is a proclivity to act in a given manner.

By acting crooked. In this case, a wife acting crookedly to her husband.

Exactly what action did she take that was "crooked"?
"Crooked" is an adjective.
"Sin" is a noun.
"Crooked" (adjective) is used to describe an "action" (noun) which is deemed to be a "sin." (also a noun)

So, "crookedness" is NOT a sin.
It is a proclivity to do sins.

So you have failed to identify the "sin" of David's parents.
And you are probably totally unaware that you has so failed.

 

[Cygnus]

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

That's not what the verse says.
Isaiah 45:7 actualy says:
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

This comes from a form of Hebrew poetry. If I remember correctly it is called parallelism...
The first word is then offset by the scond in an opisite fashion.
Such is light...then darkness
Then
well being followed by the opposite which is calamity.

For the poem to work with evil the first contrasting word would be good.

The second verse you presented using the KJV is a bad translation. You can click here to see what the other translations say.

 

[chessman]

How does someone do "iniquity"?

By not doing well. "Acting crooked" (which is what I said) as well as the very link to Biblestudies that you provided says:

make crooked," "pervert"

Genesis 4:7 If you do well will I not accept you? But if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. And its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.” ​

"Crookedness" is not a sin.

1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
​

Is crookedness unrighteousness??? (Yes)

"Sin" is a noun.

So is inquity in Psalm 51:5.
I was asked what the sin was. "Iniquity"!

If you want to know the action (the verb) the resulted in sin, the verse tells you (and it doesn't say anything about something Adam did).

It's the bringing forth/conception that's the action. This very verse answers your question as to what particular sin occurred that night. And it wasn't Adam eating forbidden fruit.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. ​

David was "brought forth", "conceived" in iniquity (sin). You asked what the specific sin was, yet this very verse tells you. What actions are mentioned??? (Being brought forth, conceived).

Were Adam's, David's or David's mother/father actions mentioned in this verse??? (David's mother/father)

Did Adam, David or David's parents do the conceiving??? (David's parents)

 

[chessman]

The infant is Quilty of having a sin nature.

Was Adam guilty before or after he disobeyed God??? After!

Genesis 5:3 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth. ​

Excellent. So (just like Adam) was Seth quilty before or after he disobeyed God?

 

[stovebolts]

That's not what the verse says.
Isaiah 45:7 actualy says:
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

This comes from a form of Hebrew poetry. If I remember correctly it is called parallelism...
The first word is then offset by the scond in an opisite fashion.
Such is light...then darkness
Then
well being followed by the opposite which is calamity.

For the poem to work with evil the first contrasting word would be good.

The second verse you presented using the KJV is a bad translation. You can click here to see what the other translations say.

Ha! Your too funny! But hey, it's the first time I've seen you try to do exegesis lol.

Try and do some textual exegesis next. That's where you actually look at the word.

Btw, the below translation can be found at chabad.org. I'll trust their translation before any other.

האֲנִ֚י יְהֹוָה֙ וְאֵ֣ין ע֔וֹד זֽוּלָתִ֖י אֵ֣ין אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֲאַזֶּרְךָ֖ וְלֹ֥א יְדַעְתָּֽנִי:
6In order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am the Lord and there is no other. ולְמַ֣עַן יֵֽדְע֗וּ מִמִּזְרַח־שֶׁ֙מֶשׁ֙ וּמִמַּ֣עֲרָבָ֔ה כִּי־אֶ֖פֶס בִּלְעָדָ֑י אֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה וְאֵ֥ין עֽוֹד:
7Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these. זיוֹצֵ֥ר אוֹר֙ וּבוֹרֵ֣א חֹ֔שֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂ֥ה שָׁל֖וֹם וּב֣וֹרֵא רָ֑ע אֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה עֹשֶׂ֥ה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה:

 

[Cygnus]

Was Adam guilty before or after he disobeyed God??? After!

Genesis 5:3 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth. ​

Excellent. So (just like Adam) was Seth quilty before or after he disobeyed God?

I've presented and supported my view several times....Before. Seth had a sin nature.

 

[Cygnus]

Ha! Your too funny! But hey, it's the first time I've seen you try to do exegesis lol.

Try and do some textual exegesis next. That's where you actually look at the word.

Btw, the below translation can be found at chabad.org. I'll trust their translation before any other.

האֲנִ֚י יְהֹוָה֙ וְאֵ֣ין ע֔וֹד זֽוּלָתִ֖י אֵ֣ין אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֲאַזֶּרְךָ֖ וְלֹ֥א יְדַעְתָּֽנִי:
6In order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am the Lord and there is no other. ולְמַ֣עַן יֵֽדְע֗וּ מִמִּזְרַח־שֶׁ֙מֶשׁ֙ וּמִמַּ֣עֲרָבָ֔ה כִּי־אֶ֖פֶס בִּלְעָדָ֑י אֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה וְאֵ֥ין עֽוֹד:
7Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these. זיוֹצֵ֥ר אוֹר֙ וּבוֹרֵ֣א חֹ֔שֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂ֥ה שָׁל֖וֹם וּב֣וֹרֵא רָ֑ע אֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה עֹשֶׂ֥ה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה:

God does not create evil. Sorry you disagree.

 

[Chopper]

Here's what Albert Barnes has to say about the evil part....
"And create evil - The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not prove that God is the author of moral evil, or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God."

 

[Seabass]

Was Christ born from an earthly father?

Does the fact He did not have an earthly father contradict the verses you posted?

I'm saying we should take passages in their context. We know for a fact that 'sin' passes on through the male seed. Romans is clear on this.

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

Christ had an earthly mother and Psa 51:5 only speaks of the mother, therefore if original sin were true then David must have gotten it thru his mother. But my point still remains, that Hebrews 2:16-17 and Philippians 2:7 cannot be true if Christ did not have original sin....if orignal sin existed.

===

Rom 5:12 'all have sinned'

1) "have sinned" shows personal culpability in the sinning not how one was passively born against his will. Verse 12 does not end with "all have inherited Adam's sin", that idea is assumed into the verse.

2) Paul spends the first 3 chapters of Romans proving that all, both groups Jews and Gentiles, have sinned and nowhere did Paul even remotely suggest the idea of original sin. Paul proved they were all sinners by listing transgressions each group had committed. In Romans 3:9-19 Paul is proving the Jew is no better than the Gentile for the Jew has sinned also and Paul quotes from the OT verse that prove the Jew is a sinner but nowhere does he mention original sin. All of Romans 3 would be not be needed if original sin were true and the Jews believed it and were taught it But the Jews did not believe nor were taught original sin. All are sinners due to choosing to sin.

3) physical death passes to all men as a consequence of Adam sinning not because inheriting Adam's sin. A drunk driver can cross the center line causing a head on collision killing innocent passengers in the other car. They died as a consequence of the drunk driver's sin and not because they inherited his sin. Even Christ coming to earth in the flesh faced the consequence of Adam sinning in physically dying. God was not impartial towards Christ in this matter. All will face the penalty of physically death as a consequence of Adam's sin.

4) in reading the context of Romans 3:9 and Romans 3:23 and Romans 5:12 when Paul says all have sinned or all under sin Paul is talking about those that are 1) capable of sinning and 2) have chosen to sin. Infants and those with severe mental disabilities are not capable of sinning (Romans 7:8-9) and Christ was capable of sinning but chose not to sin (2 Cor 5:21), so they are not part of those that "have sinned" or are "under sin" and face spiritual death. Again, in Romans 3:9-23 Paul nowhere says all are under sin due to original sin but due to transgressions committed. And in Romans 5:12 Paul did NOT say death comes to all for all inherited Adam' sin but because all "have sinned" showing personal culpability in the sinning. Paul even points out how people sinned sins that were not similar to Adam (Romans 5:14) so those people spiritual die not for having inheriting Adam's sin but choosing to commit their own sin.

 

[Cygnus]

Christ had an earthly mother and Psa 51:5 only speaks of the mother, therefore if original sin were true then David must have gotten it thru his mother. But my point still remains, that Hebrews 2:16-17 and Philippians 2:7 cannot be true if Christ did not have original sin....if orignal sin existed.

Psalm 51:5 tells us.... and in sin did my mother conceive me.

David was conceived. You stated "only speaks of the mother,"....wasn't there a father involved? Doesn't conception require two people? Dad may not have been mentioned in this verse, but dad was required...for conception. So for you to state "David must have gotten it thru his mother.".....isn't a good deduction. Davids dad had a role in davids conception.

1) "have sinned" shows personal culpability in the sinning not how one was passively born against his will. Verse 12 does not end with "all have inherited Adam's sin", that idea is assumed into the verse.

That's true, it doesn't mention original sin in this verse. It also doesn't negate original sin. The asumption is derived from other verses.
1 Cor 15 49 informs us.....And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man,....the earthly man presented here is Adam. We are born in the image of the fallen Adam which includes Adams sin nature.
The bible tells us we are IN Adam...1 Cor 15:22 For as indeed in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. All of mankind is Adam progeny. All of Adams progeny has a sin nature that must be dealt with.

2) Paul spends the first 3 chapters of Romans proving that all, both groups Jews and Gentiles, have sinned and nowhere did Paul even remotely suggest the idea of original sin. Paul proved they were all sinners by listing transgressions each group had committed. In Romans 3:9-19 Paul is proving the Jew is no better than the Gentile for the Jew has sinned also and Paul quotes from the OT verse that prove the Jew is a sinner but nowhere does he mention original sin. All of Romans 3 would be not be needed if original sin were true and the Jews believed it and were taught it But the Jews did not believe nor were taught original sin. All are sinners due to choosing to sin.

I don't think the purpose of those chapters was for the purpose of explaining our sin nature. He for the most part explained all men sin...why do all men sin? I would suggest we have a sin nature.

3) physical death passes to all men as a consequence of Adam sinning not because inheriting Adam's sin. A drunk driver can cross the center line causing a head on collision killing innocent passengers in the other car. They died as a consequence of the drunk driver's sin and not because they inherited his sin. Even Christ coming to earth in the flesh faced the consequence of Adam sinning in physically dying. God was not impartial towards Christ in this matter. All will face the penalty of physically death as a consequence of Adam's sin.

What does the bible have to say about the wages of sin?

4) in reading the context of Romans 3:9 and Romans 3:23 and Romans 5:12 when Paul says all have sinned or all under sin Paul is talking about those that are 1) capable of sinning and 2) have chosen to sin. Infants and those with severe mental disabilities are not capable of sinning (Romans 7:8-9) and Christ was capable of sinning but chose not to sin (2 Cor 5:21), so they are not part of those that "have sinned" or are "under sin" and face spiritual death. Again, in Romans 3:9-23 Paul nowhere says all are under sin due to original sin but due to transgressions committed. And in Romans 5:12 Paul did NOT say death comes to all for all inherited Adam' sin but because all "have sinned" showing personal culpability in the sinning. Paul even points out how people sinned sins that were not similar to Adam (Romans 5:14) so those people spiritual die not for having inheriting Adam's sin but choosing to commit their own sin.

Romans 5:12 says....Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Sin was the result of one man. Adam. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23. We sin because we have a sin nature. Why else would all men sin? If we didn't have a sin nature one would think there is at least one person..aside from Christ who would never have sinned....

 

[markathome]

Where there is Sin then there is the Law?
Where there is No Sin then there is No Law?
Where there is No Law then there is No Sin?
Does Death ONLY come from the tree of the knowledge of good/evil?
Does Knowledge of Sin ONLY come from the tree of the knowledge of good/evil?
Does Knowledge of Sin ONLY come from the Knowledge of the Law?
Is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil just a reference to the Law?

 

[Jim Parker]

I asked "How does someone do "iniquity"?" and you responded:
[QUOTE="chessman, post: 1349753, member: 4074"
]By not doing well. "Acting crooked" (which is what I said) as well as the very link to Biblestudies that you provided says:
[/QUOTE]
Exactly what act of iniquity did David's parents commit?
Or, was it the fact that all of mankind acts "crookedly" and that iniquity is the normal manner of living for the entire human race since Adam's sin?
That's a rhetorical question. (No response necessary)

 

[iLOVE]

There is a special blessing from Jesus. All children go to heaven because they are covered under the "Blood" - Grace and Mercy.

 

[reba]

There is a special blessing from Jesus. All children go to heaven because they are covered under the "Blood" - Grace and Mercy.

Do you know a Bible passage for this claim?

 

[iLOVE]

Do you know a Bible passage for this claim?

But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Luke 18:16

But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 19:14

Notice: Jesus had not been crucified when He made this statement recorded by the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 9:22

But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. 2 Samuel 12:23

Was David son covered under grace and mercy?

 

[reba]

Thanks That makes sense ..

Was David son covered under grace and mercy?

I have always believed so.. His grace and mercy so far beyond us..

 

[chessman]

Exactly what act of iniquity did David's parents commit?

It's a great question, the answer to which is not found in the Scripture. The Psalms did not put their exact act of inquity to song/rhyme. Nor is it that important other than it led to much of David being a community and family outcast as a young man (sound familar???) even though Jesse was a High Priest with wealth and social standing. Ever wonder why David was so much younger than all his other brothers, not even invited to meet with Samuel and employed as a shepherd even though Jesse was a High Priest??? The Jewish Midrashim (tradition) records the reason. Google it, if you're interested. But that's never been my point.

The point is, the verse says absolutely zero about pre-born David receiving condemnation for Adam's sin. Nothing! Nor does any other verse. Yes, David was destined to die once and be judged for his deeds (not Adam's).

Exactly what act of iniquity did David commit as a newly conceived fertilized egg in the womb?

was it the fact that all of mankind acts "crookedly" and that iniquity is the normal manner of living for the entire human race since Adam's sin?

While we're on the subject of asking questions that are not answered in the Scripture, can you tell me what act of inquity the pre-born David did at his conception?

 

[iLOVE]

Thanks That makes sense ..

I have always believed so.. His grace and mercy so far beyond us..

Amen. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Romans 9:15-16 - Exodus 33:19

 

[dirtfarmer]

Here's what Albert Barnes has to say about the evil part....
"And create evil - The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not prove that God is the author of moral evil, or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God."

hello Chopper, dirtfarmer here

I have never heard of Albert Barnes, But I agree with you and him. God did not create evil. Plus 5 in likes