Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

[Seabass]

I agree. Augustine and his rhetoric while arguing against universalism is what produced the doctrine on original sin. However, he needed baptism as a truth to push the doctrine and hence, the practice of infant baptism was also affirmed.

It is a case where one error (original sin) leads to another (infant baptism).

 

[Nathan]

I disagree. Have g a conditional statement does not change the meaning of all based on your theology. That is intellectually dishonest at best.

That is akin to saying God desires some to be saved, but not all.

And by the way, Adam was created with a sin nature, else he would not have had the capacity to sin.

No, do not put words into my mouth. Its fine if you disagree, but its not right to make it sound like I am being intellectually dishonest. It is NOT akin to saying God desires some to be saved. I specifically quoted the verse, and specifically quoted that it says He desires ALL men to be saved.

What I pointed out is that the word used means that God finds pleasure, a solid desire, that all men be saved. Just because He finds pleasure in it, and just because He wants it, does not mean it will happen - we know this to be true.

I do not find that Adam was 'created' with a sin nature. The "capacity" to sin is due to free will. Adam was created with the ability to make decisions. He chose to disobey, selling himself into slavery, thus selling all who would be born from his seed into slavery.

Capacity to sin, and having a sin nature, are two different things. Christ had the capacity to sin, but because He was not born from the seed of man - He did not have the sin nature. He was tested by the accuser, but did not succumb to the temptation like Adam did. You cannot tempt/test someone that does not have the capacity to choose one thing over the other.

 

[markathome]

"Have sinned" shows personal choice and culpability in committing sin.
What transgression occurred at conception to make him/her a sinner? No transgression occurs so one cannot be a sinner at conception.

This is that.
ignore "all have sinned", which is requires since the word is the problem.

Romans 5:12-21
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,(Adam not Eve)
and death by sin; (eat tree you die & you sinned by breaking the Law)
and so death passed upon all men,(Adam unto Eve's childbirth, the sorrow of death passed upon all men since all men now die. Genesis 3:16)
for that (What deed? Psalms 51:5)

for that?
for that what?
for that deed?
for that deed, of death by sin?
for there to be death there has to be life first?
for there to be death there has to be the tree of knowledge of good/evil first?
for that deed "death passed upon all men"?
for by that deed "one man sin entered into the world" ?
for by that deed "all have sinned"?

 

[Chopper]

My question was one in which the scenario was God had not issued a prohibition about eating from that one tree.

Ah my friend. I thought you were referring to Eve knowing the command. In all actuality, Eve was the first to be deceived by the serpent. If she hadn't fed Adam, it would have been as I said.

 

[Chopper]

I disagree. Have g a conditional statement does not change the meaning of all based on your theology. That is intellectually dishonest at best.

That is akin to saying God desires some to be saved, but not all.

And by the way, Adam was created with a sin nature, else he would not have had the capacity to sin.

And by the way, Adam was created with a sin nature, else he would not have had the capacity to sin.

StoveBolts, I'm not agreeing with this your statement. I don't believe that Adam was CREATED with a sin nature. I believe that nature married him when he disobeyed God and succumbed to Eve's presenting him the fruit of the tree, fully knowing it was disobedience to God Who told him not to. Once he did, the sin nature took hold.

 

[Free]

And by the way, Adam was created with a sin nature, else he would not have had the capacity to sin.

Surely you jest. Do you have Scripture to back that up?

If God created Adam with a sin nature and God saw that it was good, then for what, exactly, did Jesus die? Why the need for sacrifice if our sinful natures were good?

God gave Adam, as a moral and rational being made in His image, the capacity to choose between obeying and disobeying God. That is far different than saying Adam was created with a sin nature.

 

[markathome]

Romans 5:12-14 was from before Jesus Christ. Not until Romans 5:15 do we get to the Jesus/Christ/Grace. This Grace freed all those innocent & all the Saints at the time of His Death/Resurrection to be in Heaven & then to free all for the past 2000 years till today, the present which just became the past.

Jesus didn't have a biological Father same as Adam.
Did Jesus have knowledge of good/evil from the tree of knowledge of good/evil but without eating it?
Did Jesus "same as all others being conceived Psalms 51:5" inherit the death penalty passed onto Him by Eve?
Jesus was without sin because He was born of a Virgin & He was Eternal in Spirit but was still biological human same as Adam, so He had to Suffer Death on the Cross to Break the Eternal Curse of the tree of knowledge of good/evil passed on by Eve?
The tree of knowledge of good/evil leads to death? This hasn't changed!
The tree of knowledge of good/evil leads to the creation of Law's which leads to Sin?
Did not Jesus also suffer death upon the cross for All Mankind?
So by women the curse of the tree of knowledge of good/evil passes on by the way of death?
Death is the proof of the curse of the tree of knowledge of good/evil?
All who are born with the curse of the tree of knowledge of good/evil will die unless infants are immortal?
But Grace abounds More unto Life Eternal! Romans 5:22 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might Grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:21 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

 

[Seabass]

This is that.
ignore "all have sinned", which is requires since the word is the problem.

Romans 5:12-21
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,(Adam not Eve)
and death by sin; (eat tree you die & you sinned by breaking the Law)
and so death passed upon all men,(Adam unto Eve's childbirth, the sorrow of death passed upon all men since all men now die. Genesis 3:16)
for that (What deed? Psalms 51:5)

for that?
for that what?
for that deed?
for that deed, of death by sin?
for there to be death there has to be life first?
for there to be death there has to be the tree of knowledge of good/evil first?
for that deed "death passed upon all men"?
for by that deed "one man sin entered into the world" ?
for by that deed "all have sinned"?

This does not answer the question as to what transgression did the newly formed fetus commit in order for it to be a sinner? Just being conceived is not a sin. Sin is not an idea that is passed from one to another. A transgression must have been committed for the fetus to be a sinner. Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)" Since neither had done any evil (no transgression), then neither were sinners. This is an important point in the context of Romans 9 in Paul showing the Jews that God does not have to base His promises upon physical descent but God can choose whom He desires. Since neither had done any good or evil, then both were the alike, no difference between them so God's choice between the two was based upon His sovereignty and not upon some difference in what either had done. So the Jew could not argue that God did not choose Esau because he was profane for again God's choice was not based on what either did for neither had done no good or evil, neither was a sinner.

====

Two supposed original sin "proof passages" are Psa 51:5 and Psalms 58:3 with Psa 51 dealing with conception and Psalms 58:3 dealing with one's birth. So does one become a sinner at conception or at birth? Conception and birth are two distinct periods separated by about 9 months. If one becomes a sinner at conception (Psa 51) then he cannot be come a sinner at birth (Psa 58) for he already is a sinner. If one does not become a sinner until born (Psa 58), then one cannot become a sinner at conception (Psa 51). Since both are two distinct points one cannot become a sinner at both times, but at one or the other.

 

[markathome]

Two supposed original sin "proof passages" are Psa 51:5 and Psalms 58:3 with Psa 51 dealing with conception and Psalms 58:3 dealing with one's birth. So does one become a sinner at conception or at birth? Conception and birth are two distinct periods separated by about 9 months. If one becomes a sinner at conception (Psa 51) then he cannot be come a sinner at birth (Psa 58) for he already is a sinner. If one does not become a sinner until born (Psa 58), then one cannot become a sinner at conception (Psa 51). Since both are two distinct points one cannot become a sinner at both times, but at one or the other.

It's Death that's passed so I see the following?

Two supposed original death "proof passages" are Psa 51:5 and Psalms 58:3 with Psa 51 dealing with conception and Psalms 58:3 dealing with one's birth. So does one become a (receiving of death) at conception or at birth? Conception and birth are two distinct periods separated by about 9 months. If one becomes a (receiving of death) at conception (Psa 51) then he cannot become a (receiving of death) at birth (Psa 58) for he already is a (receiving of death). If one does not become a (receiving of death) until born (Psa 58), then one cannot become a (receiving of death) at conception (Psa 51). Since both are two distinct points one cannot become a (receiving of death) at both times, but at one or the other.

 

[stovebolts]

Surely you jest. Do you have Scripture to back that up?

If God created Adam with a sin nature and God saw that it was good, then for what, exactly, did Jesus die? Why the need for sacrifice if our sinful natures were good?

God gave Adam, as a moral and rational being made in His image, the capacity to choose between obeying and disobeying God. That is far different than saying Adam was created with a sin nature.

Ahhh, a breath of fresh air. I am absolutely pleased you have chimed in. I always appreciate your level head and approach into the scriptures.

According to the main proponents of this OP, the sinful nature has been defined as having two characteristics.
1. The ability to sin.
2. The action of sin itself.

These same proponents claim that this only takes place after Adam willfully sinned.

We know that Adam was created with the ability to sin, and we know that He did sin. As such, Adam meets the two criteria given. However, at the point of creation, Adam had not sinned. Thus, he was created good. Note, he was not created perfect, for God even said that it was NOT good that man be alone, even while in the presence of God himself. As a result, God gave Adam Eve. And it was Very Good, but not yet perfect. This alone points to a perfecting which had yet to come.

As far as to why God had to do anything, we have a fundamental shift in thought. God didn't have to unfold his mercy and grace through Jesus by way of the cross.

Jesus was not forced to hang on the cross. Instead, he willingly lived out hid Fathers will,even to the cross. Elsewhere scripture says that God gave his son, because He lived the world so much.

God didn't have to... Instead, He choose to.



While we can look at this as a transaction, we can also look at it relationally.

 

[stovebolts]

StoveBolts, I'm not agreeing with this your statement. I don't believe that Adam was CREATED with a sin nature. I believe that nature married him when he disobeyed God and succumbed to Eve's presenting him the fruit of the tree, fully knowing it was disobedience to God Who told him not to. Once he did, the sin nature took hold.

I understand. And thank you.

 

[stovebolts]

No, do not put words into my mouth. Its fine if you disagree, but its not right to make it sound like I am being intellectually dishonest. It is NOT akin to saying God desires some to be saved. I specifically quoted the verse, and specifically quoted that it says He desires ALL men to be saved.

What I pointed out is that the word used means that God finds pleasure, a solid desire, that all men be saved. Just because He finds pleasure in it, and just because He wants it, does not mean it will happen - we know this to be true.

I do not find that Adam was 'created' with a sin nature. The "capacity" to sin is due to free will. Adam was created with the ability to make decisions. He chose to disobey, selling himself into slavery, thus selling all who would be born from his seed into slavery.

Capacity to sin, and having a sin nature, are two different things. Christ had the capacity to sin, but because He was not born from the seed of man - He did not have the sin nature. He was tested by the accuser, but did not succumb to the temptation like Adam did. You cannot tempt/test someone that does not have the capacity to choose one thing over the other.

I did not put words in your mouth, and I am sorry if you mistook my reply as such.
This tells me that you are not fully comprehending my words. I do not know if it is my inability to articulate in a manner you can digest or something else I am not aware of.

This being the case, perhaps you and I should change topics before bad feelings toward each other form and deepen because for me, our friendship is more important than this doctrine, and we already agree on the things that really matter. We simply arrive at them differently in some cases.

 

[markathome]

Genesis 2:16–17 (KJV 1900)
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely DIE.

Death in Women
Women are born with a set number of eggs that is established during fetal life when they themselves are still in the womb.
Thereafter, genetic signals in the ovary cause waves of eggs to begin growing each month. By the time puberty is reached at age 13 only 350,000 eggs remain. Monthly loss of eggs continues until menopause at which point less than 1000 eggs remain. Nothing, not even pregnancy or birth control, can slow the monthly recruitment and loss of eggs. Even though hundreds of eggs are recruited each month, more than 99% will ultimately DIE(Death) without ever being ovulated. It is estimated that only 450 eggs will be ovulated by a woman during her reproductive years. Unlike men, who produce new sperm every 90 days, women do not replenish their egg supply.
http://www.myfuturebaby.com/fertility-clock/learn-more-about-your-egg-count/
The egg that grows to fetus and is born & lives to be hundred still will Die by Death.

Death in Men
Unlike women, men don't have a preset number of their reproductive players. In fact, a man produces more sperm in each ejaculation than the total number of eggs that a woman is endowed with for life. The volume of a single ejaculate on average has about 250 million sperm per ejaculate. So only 1 sperm lives while 249,999,999 DIE(Death)
The sperm that grows to fetus and is born & lives to be hundred still will Die by Death.

There is Death in conception & even more death pre-conception?

Genesis 2:16–17 (KJV 1900)
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely DIE.

 

[childeye]

I don't believe Adam was created with a sin nature. Nor do I believe God created Adam with any so-called rational ability to disobey God. I note that sin could never even appear as rational, unless predicated upon a false image of god.

Therefore, for any disobedience to occur, a sense of distrust in the Maker must first be introduced to influence the innocent and gullible. The serpent provided the means to distrust God, not God. Scripture identifies the serpent as introducing a false image of god and sowing dissent. Genesis 3:4, Genesis 3:5. Through this, Eve was deceived. Genesis 3:13.

The question yet remains, why did Adam disobey God? Scripture implies that Adam trusted the woman over his own self. Genesis 3:17. I also believe that sin has entered into all of mankind, even because we all possess the knowledge of good and evil through Adam. Therefore we all die just as God said that we would, by Adam first having partaken of it.

 

[Seabass]

It's Death that's passed so I see the following?

Two supposed original death "proof passages" are Psa 51:5 and Psalms 58:3 with Psa 51 dealing with conception and Psalms 58:3 dealing with one's birth. So does one become a (receiving of death) at conception or at birth? Conception and birth are two distinct periods separated by about 9 months. If one becomes a (receiving of death) at conception (Psa 51) then he cannot become a (receiving of death) at birth (Psa 58) for he already is a (receiving of death). If one does not become a (receiving of death) until born (Psa 58), then one cannot become a (receiving of death) at conception (Psa 51). Since both are two distinct points one cannot become a (receiving of death) at both times, but at one or the other.

1) those that back original sin have a problem on their hands with Psa 51:5 versus Psa 58:3 as to what point one becomes a sinner.
2) I have yet to see anyone prove a person is a sinner when that person has committed no transgression.

 

[Free]

According to the main proponents of this OP, the sinful nature has been defined as having two characteristics.
1. The ability to sin.
2. The action of sin itself.

These same proponents claim that this only takes place after Adam willfully sinned.

We know that Adam was created with the ability to sin, and we know that He did sin. As such, Adam meets the two criteria given.

I disagree with both characteristics of the sinful nature as given, although they need more explanation. The ability to sin in no way means that one has a sinful nature. The ability to murder does not make one a murderer, that is, someone who has a murdering nature. The choice to obey or disobey God is based on our having freewill; the fact that we often choose to disobey is because of our sin nature. Our sin nature is that part of us that has the propensity towards sin and that desires sin. Sin is evidence of our sinful nature.

However, at the point of creation, Adam had not sinned. Thus, he was created good. Note, he was not created perfect, for God even said that it was NOT good that man be alone, even while in the presence of God himself. As a result, God gave Adam Eve. And it was Very Good, but not yet perfect. This alone points to a perfecting which had yet to come.

Man was essentially created perfect in that we were created exactly how God wanted us to be--in his image. If God created man with a sinful nature, then we must accept that God himself is sinful. Adam and Eve would not have had to be enticed by a third party to sin had they had sinful natures. It was the sin that corrupted their natures; they didn't sin because they were already corrupted.

 

[childeye]

The choice to obey or disobey God is based on our having freewill; the fact that we often choose to disobey is because of our sin nature.

I would argue that having a sin nature means that we do not have an amoral free will. Romans 6:18. Romans 6:20.

Free will is simply a conflating of choice/option with choice/decision. We all make choices simply because we have to. We are constantly choosing to do something every moment so long as we're alive, whereas the immoral desire to sin is always precipitated by a deception manifesting or appealing to the carnal impulse. Romans 8:7. Romans 7:11.

 

[stovebolts]

I disagree with both characteristics of the sinful nature as given, although they need more explanation. The ability to sin in no way means that one has a sinful nature. The ability to murder does not make one a murderer, that is, someone who has a murdering nature. The choice to obey or disobey God is based on our having freewill; the fact that we often choose to disobey is because of our sin nature. Our sin nature is that part of us that has the propensity towards sin and that desires sin. Sin is evidence of our sinful nature.


Man was essentially created perfect in that we were created exactly how God wanted us to be--in his image. If God created man with a sinful nature, then we must accept that God himself is sinful. Adam and Eve would not have had to be enticed by a third party to sin had they had sinful natures. It was the sin that corrupted their natures; they didn't sin because they were already corrupted.

I agree with the first half of what you said. In addition, when Adam willfully sinned, it also qualifies him as had having a sinful nature.

As far as the second part, that's not like you to stray from what scripture clearly says. I'm surprised you said Adam was perfect.

Case in point. You said Adam was made perfect. Perfectly broken perhaps (sorry. It's lyrics from Kutless).... haha, please omit.

But the best scripture says is that creation was "Very Good, and that according to Gods testimony on the matter.

There seems to be a fundamental flaw in describing exactly what the sin nature is prior to Adams fall without including Adam as actually being created with it.

But we are ok with saying Adam had freewill, which is not a word found in scriptures.

From what I am able to reason is they are fundamentally the same, with the exception that some assign the sin nature as some outside force with the description of freewill that entered man's soul at the fall.

I don't buy that.

You know I respect you, and if anyone can convince me otherwise through scripture, it would be you Free

 

[Bick]

If mankind is made in the image of God, after His likeness, isn't it possible that having free will they would seek God?
But does man do this? Not according to Rom.3:9-18:
"No one is righteous, no, not one; no one understands,
no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together
they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one.....there is no fear of God before their eyes." RSV.
Quoting Psa. 14:1-2; 36:1; 59:7-8.
Why? Because mankind is under the power of sin
(Rom. 3:9).

 

[markathome]

For there to be sin nature then there has to be Law nature?
If mankind sins then it's the Power of the Law, created from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, forever integrated into our brains wiring like how animals has the knowledge to know how to climb a tree at birth? John 3:16