Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

[Cygnus]

One cannot be fearfully and wonderfully made in a state of condemnation. Thus, to be conceived in sin is not to be made of sin.

If that be the case.....One cannot be fearfully and wonderfully made and have a sin nature.

 

[stovebolts]

If that be the case.....One cannot be fearfully and wonderfully made and have a sin nature.

If I am conceived in a bedroom, I am not a bedroom.

Adam and Eve were created with the potential to sin, and they sinned.
I would like to know your thoughts.
First, what is a sin nature?
Second, was Adam and Eve created with a sin nature?
Third, is a sin nature inherited?

 

[Jim Parker]

First, what is a sin nature?
Second, was Adam and Eve created with a sin nature?
Third, is a sin nature inherited?

(1) "Sin nature" is a proclivity to sin. It is the "instinct" of each individual to put their own needs and wants before the needs of others which gives rise to greed, avarice, envy, lust, gluttony, theft, and even murder.
(2) Adam and Eve were created with free will and, in their naivete, were enticed by Satan to disobey God. But they were not created with the proclivity to sin. Rather, they were unaware of what good and evil were.
(3) Ro 5:12: "...just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—" Apparently it is.

 

[Christ_empowered]

we are all born with a strong sin nature that only Christ Jesus Himself can correct. mankind's default destination is Hell. That's why most of humanity is on the broad road...its where human nature takes you.

the idea that children are somehow innocient is actually a fairly modern one. Puritans saw children as heathens. It wasn't until social and economic changes meant that more and more people could have 1st a childhood, then an adolescence, that these notions of childhood innocence and such became such a big part of the culture. kind of along the same lines as marriage has also come to be viewed in terms of "love: and such, along the same time, largely because of some of the same social+economic changes.

anyway...yeah. No one is born innocent. God may not hold many people accountable for a number of reasons, but that's out of His mercy, not obligation. Kind of...how its not so amazing that so many end up in Hell, but rather that God, in His mercy, saves any of us.

 

[Cygnus]

First, what is a sin nature?

Here is a definition: The sin nature is that aspect in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing.

Second, was Adam and Eve created with a sin nature?

The answer is...no.

Third, is a sin nature inherited?

Yes.

 

[stovebolts]

Here is a definition: The sin nature is that aspect in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing.

The answer is...no.

Yes.

On Point number 1, the link to the site you quoted states,
Question: "What is the sin nature?"

Answer: The sin nature is that aspect in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing

That's a pretty interesting definition... How do you reconcile that with scripture?

Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

We see in scripture that Eve was deceived through her own lusts for knowledge and to be like God (Genesis 3:6 and James 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.) and Adam disobeyed "naturally choosing to do his own thing" willfully disobeying God's command. (1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.)

Now then, can you please tell me through scripture exactly what your calling the sin nature. Unless you disagree with my understanding of the above passages in their relation to the definition you presented. If you disagree, I would be interested in knowing why starting in a proper interpretation of the four passages I've posted.

 

[Jim Parker]

the idea that children are somehow innocient is actually a fairly modern one. Puritans saw children as heathens.

In the overall scheme of things, Puritans are relatively modern. (16th -17th centuries)
The scripture (which I posted)indicates that there is a period during which a child does not know right from wrong. That's pretty much the definition of innocence.
The idea that an infant is a sinner is a bit ludicrous. All it can do is eat, sleep, poop and pee, smile, and cry. Those are hardly sinful behaviors.

No one is born innocent.

Infants are innocent.
They are incapable of sin.
They are incapable of knowing what evil is let alone choosing it over good.

 

[Cygnus]

On Point number 1, the link to the site you quoted states,
Question: "What is the sin nature?"

Answer: The sin nature is that aspect in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing

That's a pretty interesting definition... How do you reconcile that with scripture?

Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

We see in scripture that Eve was deceived through her own lusts for knowledge and to be like God (Genesis 3:6 and James 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.) and Adam disobeyed "naturally choosing to do his own thing" willfully disobeying God's command. (1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.)

Now then, can you please tell me through scripture exactly what your calling the sin nature. Unless you disagree with my understanding of the above passages in their relation to the definition you presented. If you disagree, I would be interested in knowing why starting in a proper interpretation of the four passages I've posted.

The same article contains the following:
The Bible explains the reason for the trouble. Humanity is sinful, not just in theory or in practice but by nature. Sin is part of the very fiber of our being. The Bible speaks of “sinful flesh” in Romans 8:3. It’s our “earthly nature” that produces the list of sins in Colossians 3:5. And Romans 6:6 speaks of “the body ruled by sin.” The flesh-and-blood existence we lead on this earth is shaped by our sinful, corrupt nature.

Me now.....our sin nature is due to the fall in the garden. Since the fall every one of Adams progeny has been corrupted with this curse.

 

[stovebolts]

The same article contains the following:
The Bible explains the reason for the trouble. Humanity is sinful, not just in theory or in practice but by nature. Sin is part of the very fiber of our being. The Bible speaks of “sinful flesh” in Romans 8:3. It’s our “earthly nature” that produces the list of sins in Colossians 3:5. And Romans 6:6 speaks of “the body ruled by sin.” The flesh-and-blood existence we lead on this earth is shaped by our sinful, corrupt nature.

Me now.....our sin nature is due to the fall in the garden. Since the fall every one of Adams progeny has been corrupted with this curse.

According to the definition you posted, both Adam and Eve had a sin nature...

 

[Cygnus]

According to the definition you posted, both Adam and Eve had a sin nature...

No, I am not saying that.
I said....
our sin nature is due to the fall in the garden. Since the fall every one of Adams progeny has been corrupted with this curse.

I'm finding it difficult to see how you came to such a conclusion.

You may find this video helpful.

 

[stovebolts]

By the way, I believe death was a blessing.

As far as being cursed, I only read of the Serpent and the ground being cursed.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life:

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because you have listened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in sorrow shall you eat of it all the days of your life;

Romans 8:19-20 For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope,

 

[stovebolts]

No, I am not saying that.
I said....
our sin nature is due to the fall in the garden. Since the fall every one of Adams progeny has been corrupted with this curse.

I asked, Was Adam and Eve created with a Sin Nature.
You said "No".
However, your definition of what a Sin Nature is says otherwise in light of the four passages I posted. Please view my reply in post 26.

Do you disagree with the definition you posted, or do you disagree with the plain reading of four passages I posted in relation to your definition?

If you disagree with the definition you posted, please re-evaluate and let me know your changes. Otherwise, you will have to address the four passages I posted directly.

 

[stovebolts]

No, I am not saying that.
I said....
our sin nature is due to the fall in the garden.

Death was the result Adam's willful disobedience of God's commandment to NOT eat from the tree....

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression

 

[Cygnus]

As far as being cursed, I only read of the Serpent and the ground being cursed.

Gal 3:13. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

 

[Cygnus]

However, your definition of what a Sin Nature is says otherwise in light of the four passages I posted. Please view my reply in post 26.

I said the sin nature was a result of the fall.

 

[stovebolts]

Gal 3:13. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

That passage is in reference to to the law of Moses, not the fall.

 

[stovebolts]

I said the sin nature was a result of the fall.

I understand what you said. However. What you say does not agree with the passages I have posted.

Scripture is clear that death was the result of the fall as well as the serpent and the ground being cursed. It speaks nothing to the effect that our sinful nature was a result of Adams willful disobedience.

I understand that you have bought into the dogma that comes out of systematic theology, and I also understand that your not well versed in systematic theology which personally, I am thankful for.

Please, let the scriptures speak through good exegesis and consider all that I have posted on the matter and let us not depart from the Word of God, but rather the let Word of God guide our thoughts.

Grace and peace brother.

 

[Nathan]

Hmmmmm, can Jesus be a Savior to someone who does not need saving? Do those 'innocent' children who die need a savior?

Hmmmmmm, does death happen to that which contains no sin?

 

[chessman]

Every explanation I've heard says the verse is about David...

And David's mother:

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
​

How could David be sinful in his conception? Wouldn't the sin/inquity spoken of be attributed to his mother, father or both?

 

[Cygnus]

Scripture is clear that death was the result of the fall as well as the serpent and the ground being cursed. It speaks nothing to the effect that our sinful nature was a result of Adams willful disobedience.

If you can't understand our sin nature was a result of the fall....then I'm done with you on this topic.
Basic christianity 101.