Are we born condemned with Adams sin...or innocent at birth?

[stovebolts]

No, I may suffer the result of what their sin did - but I will not suffer the cost of their sin.

Think of it this way - I may 'loose' the money I had, but I cannot be sentenced to jail for their theft.

Death is the sentence of sin alone, not just a coincidence. Adam was not told that he would die unless he ate the fruit. Eating the fruit is what brought the sentence of death - his death. Romans states very clearly that death comes through sin. Where there is no sin, there is no death.

Ezekiel 18 is very clear about how sin and death are connected. I think people stumble in understanding what 'sin' is. Once that is understood, then it is clear how an infant - who has neither chose good or evil - has the sin nature, having death as a sentence, and needs a Savior.

Let's entertain Eziekel 18 for a moment. It is clear that those who commit sins worthy of death per the law of Moses will be put to death unless they turn from their ways and make things right.
On the other hand, nobody will suffer the penalty of death if they have not committed a sin worthy of death according to the law of Moses.
A father cannot be put to death for the sins of his son any more than a son can be put to death for the sins of his father.
If you didn't catch my reference to the law of Moses, let me just say that the sins listed are punishable by death according to the law of Moses.

As to the broader discussion of having a sin nature, I fail to see your coralation because simply put, every man with the exception of one has tasted the sting of physical death. And that one man was Elijah as noted in 2 Kings 2.

Yes, even Jesus tasted death. But not Elijah.

Where you and I differ is the idea of death. You look at death as a punishment because you see God as an angry God who punishes for wrong doing.

I see death as a blessing, but more so death is a consequence to one man's sin. If I poison a well, every one will pay the cost for my sin because the very nature of humanity is within community and what I do, either good or bad will either directly or indirectly effect those around me.

Death may have been a penalty for Adam, but the consequences of Adams sin has ripple.

The same goes for Jesus. What He has done also has ripple.

And so I come back full circle and it is time for you to answer a question.

What sin did the earth commit that it was cursed?

 

[stovebolts]

Good insight.
Many people mistakenly believe that death is a punishment.

It took burying two of my children and a brother to realise this.... It did not come easy.

One was four months old and the other 21. My brother was in his early 30s

 

[Nathan]

Asked and answered (twice as I recall).

That verse of Scripture doesn't say anything about how infants fair through the judgment. My question was "What Scripture teaches that an infant (or pre-born) will have their souls destroyed?"

You made it clear that you believed infants did need a Savior, which would save them from the destruction of their souls.

The ONLY reason why a soul is destroyed is because they were sentenced to it.

So I am trying to get clarity because on one hand you seem like you believe they need a Savior, but then on the other hand it seems like you believe they don't need one.

 

[Seabass]

I still think it comes down to understanding what sin is. I do not think that 'original sin' is passed through the father.

My first point in an earlier post of my is John said sin is transgression of the law. This makes the idea of original sin impossible. For a newly conceived fetus to be a sinner, it must have committed a transgression when it cannot. Therefore no transgression was committed at conception, no sinner exists at conception.

The propensity, namely the desire, to sin is passed down through the father. We have to remember, it was Adam that God had given the commandment to, and it was Adam who was not deceived.

There is no sin nature where man can only choose to do wrong, Genesis 4:7.

Rom 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Condemnation - κατάκριμα katákrima, kat-ak'-ree-mah; from G2632; an adverse sentence (the verdict):—condemnation.

The 'verdict' that came from Adams sin, is that all of his seed would also be judged. It is impossible to escape that judgement. Therefore, even infants will be judged because they are from Adam's seed.

We are not going to be judged on what Adam did, but rather on what we have done. Therefore, we need a Savior who will save us from that sentence.

Problem is, it is impossible to escape this through human deeds - or lack of sin(like infants). Why? Because from the moment we take our first breath we have the propensity to sin. No one has to teach someone how to sin. It is coded in our DNA - thanks to Adam. Therefore, infants need a Savior because they too have the propensity to sin - even if they have not chose to do so yet.

God is just. And being just, He cannot sentence someone to destruction who has not done anything to receive it. Here is the point - while an infant has not chose to sin yet, their DNA is set to make them desire it, and therefore they by virtue of reception are guilty and have to be saved from that propensity to sin.

This is why Jesus was manifested - to destroy the works of the devil.

My point earlier on Rom 5:18, if it does prove original sin then it by default it must also prove Univerasalism.

Yet Paul NEVER said "all men" are UNCONDITIONALLY made sinner because of Adam. If this were true, then that same "all men" will be UNCONDITIONALLY justified by Christ creating Universalism.

Romans 5:12 "for that all have sinned" this shows personal culpability in sinning therefore men are CONDITIONALLY made sinners when man chooses to sin, not by just being passively born made a sinner against his will.

Romans 5:1-2 men are CONDITIONALLY made righteous by choosing to have faith.
.
Hebrews 2:17 and Philippians 2:7 are false if original sin/sinful nature is true yet Christ was not born with it.

 

[Nathan]

Where you and I differ is the idea of death. You look at death as a punishment because you see God as an angry God who punishes for wrong doing.

Your wrong. You think that I see death as a punishment. I don't.

Eternal death, that is a sentence however. Physical death, that is relief.

 

[Jim Parker]

It took burying two of my children and a brother to realise this.... It did not come easy.

One was four months old and the other 21. My brother was in his early 30s

wow

 

[Nathan]

What sin did the earth commit that it was cursed?

It was Adam's, and through Adam's choice, he 'sold'(loose term) it into satan's hand.

Do you know what sin is?

 

[stovebolts]

There are no passages that teach it.

I believe infants/young ones are 'saved' in Christ. This is where God's sovereignty comes into play.

They too will stand before God and be judged. However, since they had never chose to do wrong - God will judge them based on that. Because Christ died to set all men free from slavery, they too will be free from it.

Chapter and verse please

 

[Nathan]

Chapter and verse please

For which part?

 

[stovebolts]

It was Adam's, and through Adam's choice, he 'sold'(loose term) it into satan's hand.

Do you know what sin is?

So you agree that the ground was cursed due to Adams sin, although the ground had done nothing wrong.

Does that seem fair or just to you?

 

[Nathan]

My first point in an earlier post of my is John said sin is transgression of the law. This makes the idea of original sin impossible. For a newly conceived fetus to be a sinner, it must have committed a transgression when it cannot. Therefore no transgression was committed at conception, no sinner exists at conception.

We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.

Humans are not human because we decide to stand up, walk around, and look/talk like humans do. We are humans to begin with, and therefore we do what humans do.

 

[chessman]

Often the NT can be used to shine a light on what the OT is saying.

Then use it to shine some light on your original point (that infants are born, condemned for Adam's sin). Taint there.

Yes, death came to all because all (Adam, Eve and the serpent) sinned. And as a result all die. But they weren't infants! Nor were they created with some so-called Adamic 'sin-nature' either. All that was necessary for sin was a little time, non-divine free-will and the knowledge of good/evil.

 

[Nathan]

So you agree that the ground was cursed due to Adams sin, although the ground had done nothing wrong.

Does that seem fair or just to you?

Do you think that the ground cares? It is not either just or unjust.

If I take some clay, make a pot out of it - then smash it to pieces - was that just or unjust?

 

[stovebolts]

For which part?

The part about infants.
Just so you know, I have studied this subject long and hard, especially from the old testiment because I myself have lost an infant.
As a result, I needed to know my child's eternal fate and I had to know why David believed what he believed about his own infant that died due to his own sin.

You see, David's son did not die because of the sons sin, but rather, scripture is crystal clear that the child died due to David's sin.

So, show me your passages, and let's see if you can see what David saw from Torah that He would come to such a conclusion.

Remember, study to show yourself approved.... Paul was mentioning the OT.

 

[stovebolts]

Do you think that the ground cares? It is not either just or unjust.?

Of course it cares... why else does it groan?

Now, answer the question.

 

[Nathan]

Hebrews 2:17 and Philippians 2:7 are false if original sin/sinful nature is true yet Christ was not born with it.

He was not born with it, but He did receive it. That is why the eternal life died.

 

[Jim Parker]

My first point in an earlier post of my is John said sin is transgression of the law. This makes the idea of original sin impossible.

Good post
This one point is problematic.
The western (Roman) idea of Original Sin includes the teaching that all of mankind are guilty of Adam's sin. (contra Eze 18 )
You might look into the Eastern Orthodox teaching of "Ancestral Sin" which takes a different view and rejects universal guilt for Adam's sin.

 

[Nathan]

The part about infants.
Just so you know, I have studied this subject long and hard, especially from the old testiment because I myself have lost an infant.
As a result, I needed to know my child's eternal fate and I had to know why David believed what he believed about his own infant that died due to his own sin.

You see, David's son did not die because of the sons sin, but rather, scripture is crystal clear that the child died due to David's sin.

So, show me your passages, and let's see if you can see what David saw from Torah that He would come to such a conclusion.

Remember, study to show yourself approved.... Paul was mentioning the OT.

Jeff, if this is too close for you then by all means I am not going to continue.

Children are 'saved' in Christ because He is the fulfillment of the promise God made from Eve on down through the generations. David knew this. David knew that God was salvation. David knew that God was just, and He would not sentence a soul to eternal death without the soul choosing it.

David knew that salvation was from God, and from God alone - not based on what man does or does not do.

Psa 51:7-12
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones that you have broken rejoice.
Hide your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.

David knew he would see his son because he knew Christ was the Savior of the world. David knew that his sin resulted in the death of his son - David knew that mankind is in slavery to sin - born that way - and needs a Savior - a deliverer.

 

[chessman]

I am trying to get clarity because on one hand you seem like you believe they need a Savior,

Yes they need a Savior. And have one.

then on the other hand it seems like you believe they don't need one.

I have no idea what gave you that impression. I didn't say they didn't need a Savior. I say infants/pre-borns don't sin. And neither do animals. Yet animals need a Savior too, if they are gonna live forever.

And I'm saying (subject to correction) that Ps 51:5 doesn't say David sinned on the night of his conception. It seems to me to be saying his mother and father did (not Him).

 

[Seabass]

He was not born with it, but He did receive it. That is why the eternal life died.

If other men were born with it, so was Christ else those verses are not true. It cannot be true that man is born with a sin/sin nature and at the same time Christ was made like men, had the same weakness, infirmities and temptations as man yet not born with a sin nature.

Christ could never honestly claim He was made like other humans, that He knew what it would be like to be a real human in the flesh and what humans have to deal with if all other men were born with and had to contend with a sin nature and He did not.