B
BornAgain
Guest
Davies,
How do you obtain your salvation?
Please show me scripturally in the Bible where original sin is mentioned, doctrinally.
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Are we born with a sin nature?
- Thread starter for_his_glory
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Davies,
How do you obtain your salvation?
Please show me scripturally in the Bible where original sin is mentioned, doctrinally.
Davies
Member
Hi BornAgain,
A person obtains salvation by the sole sovereignty of God. Though God requires repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, neither repentance or faith earns a person salvation. A person receives faith by hearing the word of God, and that faith comes by the Holy Spirit. I do believe our faith is accounted to us for righteousness; and yes we are justified by faith, but nothing we do justifies us. It is the imputed righteousness of Jesus that justifies a man before God.
Romans 5:16-17
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
If you can't see imputed sin and righteousness in these verses, than we will just disagree with each other. I think the implications to the Gospel is this: If judgement didn't come to all through Adam's sin, then this leaves room for another way to Heaven outside of Jesus. I believe that because of our hearts, our nature, we sin. So, just as sin is imputed to us through the one man, so the gift of righteousness is imputed to those who receive the abundance of grace.
What do you think Paul is referring to in verse 16 where it says, "And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned."? It's obvious we received something through the one who sinned. What is it?
- Davies
B
BornAgain
Guest
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
The design of God in sending his Son into the world was not to condemn it.
But unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, Those who obtain this salvation and glory do so according to the appointment and calling of God on condition of a willing response to that calling through Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:18 KJV
16 And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation,—Through one that sinned death came, and condemnation to all. One death brought both physical decay and spiritual ruin, or, rather, both spiritual ruin and physical decay are results from one cause.
As by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
The gift of righteousness" is the remission of sins. Viewed from the divine side, it is a gratuitous act; from the human side, it is the thing received, for which we make no return—it is a gift.
Reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ.—This covers the whole mediation of Jesus Christ in reference to man.
It is through His death that the believing penitent, on rendering obedience to the gospel, enters into the state of righteousness, and through the union with him which follows that his whole being is visualized and transfigured through time into eternity.
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None can be a sinner of themselves as one can not be righteous of them self. It's Satan that brings about sin as he is the father of it, just as God brings about His righteousness in us because He is the Father of it.
First, I never said Satan was Holy, I said Lucifer was created Holy until iniquity was found in him and God cast him out of Gods Throne Room and changed his name to Satan as he became unholy and God cast him down to the ground.
We both believe John 8:44 that Satan was a murderer from the beginning and also a sinner, but if you ignore Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee, then you would just read into John 8:44 that Jesus meant from the beginning of his creation that he was created a murderer and a sinner.
If you are going to quote me please use the whole quote: This is what you quoted me saying - for_his_glory: What other powers and entities are you referring to
Here is my whole statement I made: What other powers and entities are you referring to as the only ones I know of are Satan and his minions he commands for evil as he imitates the opposite of God commanding His holy angels for goodness.
Then you come back with basically calling me blind to who the other powers and entities are that you were referring to! You make it sound like there are others to consider in all matters of sin besides that of Satan.
Davies
Member
I'm in agreement so far. People, the world, have already been condemned, John 3:17-18.
When you say, "on condition of a willing response to that calling," because this is totally unnatural for us to do, I believe this is a work of the Holy Spirit in a person, Philippians 2:13.
I would agree with you that being forgiven is a wonderful gift, but you have to be more than just forgiven. You have to meet the fulfillment of the law, Matthew 5:48. If you did nothing, and never sinned, you would not qualify to go to Heaven. Thus we see the need for all who are born in Adam. Condemnation came through the one to all men. I believe that is the gift through the one that sinned talked about in verse 5:16, condemnation. By our faith, we are pronounced righteous, but it's not our righteousness that justifies us before God. Only by Jesus' righteousness, Romans 5:18, are we justified. It's Jesus' righteousness that is the gift, Romans 17.
Everyone born in Adam needs be reborn by the Spirit which I think is done through repentance and faith. I think we both agree on this, but I don't think repentance and faith in and of themselves earns anything, although they are conditions that must be met in order for God to forgive, and it is God who brings a man to repentance, Romans 2:4, Philippians 2:13.
I'm not sure you answered my question, but in Romans 5:16, I think we should understand that condemnation came to all men. If Romans 5:16 is not clear, then Paul spells it out in Romans 5:18. Now, some have told me this is teaching universalism, but the difference of that which came by Adam and the gift of Jesus is spelled out in Romans 5:17. Everyone one dies because death reigns through the one(Adam), to those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness, they will reign in life through the One(Jesus). No universalism there.
Is it fair that condemnation came to all men? Most people don't think so, but when you see that we are imputed the righteousness of Jesus, then most people should think this is unfair too, but there it is in Romans 5.
I submit to you, BornAgain. Where am I going wrong, or are we misunderstanding each other? Have I read into the verses, and if so, where do you think I'm doing it?
This all relates to the subject of the thread, because all babies are born in Adam, and because babies do not have the capability of fulfilling the Law, I believe God applies the blood of Jesus to their account, though I can't quote a specific verse that says that explicitly. I think a Christian hopes all things.
- Davies
Martin Luther
Member
Who can know. I think we are born with a sin nature but not sin. Odd that until Adam and Eve sinned, they had no children.
Dustoftheearth
Member
Hi smaller!
With respect Jesus did not say that Satan was created a murderer, but that he was a murderer from the beginning. I would tend to believe that ‘the beginning’ referrers to our ‘time’
I don’t think that angels are pro created, but created as is.
Everything that God has created is initially ‘good’
We know from scripture that it speaks of some of the angles left their first estate, so I don’t see a problem in thinking that Satan also fell from his first estate.
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Dustoftheearth
Member
Yes I know
Yes I know
Yes I know
And when Adam had sinned he became corrupted, and the seed of mankind in his loins were also corrupted.
Was Cain taught to sin, or was it in his inherited nature to do so?
Again did Jesus exaggerate? Jesus said that no man that came from a mother's womb, was greater that John the Baptist (that would include Able) and yet the least in the Kingdom would be greater than he (John the Baptist) would be.
If John in his own self-worth was not fit to enter the kingdom (apart from Christ) then what chance has any man?
Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Davies
Member
Hi Dustoftheearth,
I like it. I like it a lot. John the Baptist is an excellent example because he was filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb, Luke 1:15.
- Davies
O
Osgiliath
Guest
Again, this is not referring to Satan, nor does the Bible say it is. If you re-read the Scripture in my post, you will see that you are, perhaps unknowingly, disregarding what the Scriptures say, and instead are following your own ideas, or the ideas and traditions that orthodoxy has passed down to you.
You say:
I certainly see Satan "working through" the King of Tyre, but Satan "working through" someone is a far cry from Satan "being" that someone. Satan is working through the King of Tyre inasmuch as this verse shows us:
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
"The Dragon" is Satan, of course:
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The great dragon, that old serpent, the Devil, and Satan, are all one and the same, an evil spirit which the Lord sends to trouble His fleshly vessels of clay, as He did Job, Saul, Ahab, etc. While Satan has a whole host under His command, Satan himself, and all of his minions are under the command and control of God, who works all things after the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11):
1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1 Kings 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1 Kings 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1 Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
This story of King Ahab, just as the story of Job, and Joseph's brothers, and every other story in the Bible, demonstrates that no evil spirit can lift a finger without permission and commission from God. The story of King Saul is this same story. Satan can do nothing more than he is sent to accomplish:
1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1 Samuel 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are addressed primarily to you and me setting ourselves up as kings on the throne in our hearts where Christ ought to be, that the types, shadows and symbols of this beastly king within are the Kings of Babylon and the Kings of Tyre.
Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 "........,and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
1 Corinthians 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
You and I are the Temple of God, and it is all of us, like the King of Tyre, who usurp God's rightful place on the throne, and seek to exalt ourselves above the stars of God, in the sides of the north - when we do not yield to the leading of the Spirit.
As the apostle Peter, we are "Satan" at any time we withstand the words of our Lord and say that every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God is not for us to keep. It also addresses the power behind the throne of this beast within:
Revelation 13:2 "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat [Greek - throne], and great authority."
As Jesus said, the devil was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING (John 8:44). In the Greek, "the beginning" is emphatically referring to HIS OWN (the devil's) beginning.
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Ernest T. Bass
Member
Eze 18:19 "Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, [and] hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live".
Eze 18:10 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. "
Sinning and doing righteousness comes from whether one keeps God's statutes and commands for neither sin or righteousness is inherited or passed down from one's parents.
Abel did what was lawful and right, Heb 11:4 while Cain did not. Where did Abel get the ability to do what was lawful and right? He was born with that ability. Abel just as Cain both were born with the ability to choose to do either what is well or choose to do what is not well, Gen 4:7.
Rom 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" THis would not have been possible for the Gentiles if they inherited a corrupt nature form their parents.
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1 Cor 11:7 and James 3:9 man is still created in the image or likeness of God.
Was the "Image of God" Destroyed by Sin?
by Eric Lyons, M.Min.
Many theologians through the years have claimed that the “image of God” spoken of in Genesis 1:26-27 refers to a spiritual perfection that was lost in the Fall. Thus, they have concluded that modern man no longer bears the image of God. Reformer Martin Luther believed that the “image of God” was an original righteousness that was lost completely. He thus proclaimed: “I am afraid that since the loss of this image through sin we cannot understand it to any extent.” Oftentimes John Calvin spoke of the image of God as having been destroyed by sin, obliterated by the Fall, and utterly defaced by unrighteousness. More recently, religionist/anthropologist Arthur Custance, in his 1975 book, Man in Adam and in Christ, observed: “Genesis tells us that man was created in a special way, bearing the stamp of God upon him which the animals did not bear. Genesis also tells us that he lost it” (p. 103). Does the language of Genesis 1:26-27 refer only to Adam and Eve, as these writers would have us to believe? Or does it refer to all mankind in general?
The Bible reveals that man still retains the image of God after the Fall. Genesis 9:6 states: “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.” According to this passage, fallen man still bears the image of God. The record of Adam and Eve’s fall had been recorded earlier in the book of Genesis; that man had become a rank sinner is stated clearly in the immediate context of the passage (“…every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood”—8:21). Although God’s assessment is correct in regard to mankind, murder is forbidden because man is made in the image of God—that is, he still bears that image. If one argues that this passage speaks only about the past and says nothing about the future, he does violence to the meaning of the passage. Moses, writing about 2,500 years after the Fall, said that the reason murder is wrong is because the victim is someone created in the image of God. If man no longer bears the image of God after the Fall, these words would have been meaningless to the Israelites (and are worthless for man today).
In the New Testament, one can read where James wrote: “But the tongue can no man tame; it is a restless evil, it is full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we the Lord and Father; and therewith curse we men, who are made after the likeness of God” (3:8-9, emp. added). The English verb “are made” ([SIZE=-1]ASV[/SIZE]) derives from the Greek gegonotas, which is the perfect participle of the verb ginomai. The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe an action brought to completion in the past, but whose effects are felt in the present. For example, when the Bible says, “It is written,” this is usually in the perfect tense. Scripture was written in the past, but is applicable to the present. The thrust of the Greek expression translated “who are made after the likeness of God,” is that humans in the past have been made according to the likeness of God and they are still bearers of that likeness. For this reason, it is inconsistent to worship God and curse men with the same tongue.
Although sin is destructive to man and repulsive to God, the Bible does not teach that the “image of God” was destroyed by sin’s entrance into the world. Rather, modern man still is created in God’s image. How thrilling and humbling it is to know that all men possess inherent characteristics that liken them to God and differentiate them from the lower creation.
http://apologeticspress.com/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=564
http://apologeticspress.com/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=149
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As far as Matt 11:11 the least in the kingdom being greater that John is said for John died before the kingdom/church came into existence in Acts 2. John was never added to the kingdom/church Acts 2:47 as the apostles and others were. One commentator (Coffman) puts it "Just as John was the greatest of the prophets because of his proximity to Christ, the apostles, and indeed all Christians, are greater than John because they are even closer, being "in him" as a result of the new birth. Since Christ is Lord, this statement concerning John became the fulfillment of the prophecy that John would "be great in the sight of the Lord" (Luke 1:15). The statement proves that: (1) John was not in the kingdom of Christ, and (2) the kingdom had not then been set up, else John would have been in it. The least in God's kingdom are greater than John because (1) their sins are forgiven, whereas those of John were merely rolled forward to the cross, and (2) they enjoy full fellowship with Christ in his kingdom".
First I do not follow any ideas, traditional teachings of any orthodox Church as all my learning comes straight from the Bible through the Holy Spirit. Apart from the Holy Spirit man can teach me nothing.
Let's look at the first verse in Ezekiel Chapter 28:
1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Son of man, this would be Ezekiel as it reads (me) here as the word of the Lord came to me Ezekiel. The prince of Tyrus is Satan, probably not seen visibly, but seen as the enmity of Tyrus as the working force of evil found in the king. The reason it is Satan because the word of the Lord came to Ezekiel for what to speak against Satan. Vs. 2 gives a very clear definition of Satan as only he claimed to be God and sit in the seat of God in the midst of the seas (here seas means nations). Vs. 2 goes on to say thou art a man, which refers to Satan being a created angel as in the same sense as Adam being a created man. Satan set his heart as being that of God when he was placed in the garden of Eden as it's covering Cherub before his fall. Now you can read beginning in verses 11-13 that the prince and also king is that of Satan himself as first being set in the garden of Eden and then throughout verses 14-19 as being very descriptive of Satan and also of his demise in the end of his reign of terror. Now if you still can not see this is Satan then I do not know what to tell you. Remember, Satan counterfeits that of God and can also take on different forms as being the prince and king of Tyrus as he did taking on the form of a serpent that deceived Eve in the garden.
Dustoftheearth
Member
What about the souls that have not committed any sin?
Have they not still died?
How do you balance your understanding of the above verses with:
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
The scripture say 'when' the Gentiles do.
Do they keep all the law?
Since we are talking 'law'
Sin is not only about doing what you ought not do, but it is also about not doing what you ought to do.
What about the first and greatest commandment?
Apart from Jesus Christ, how many have fully kept the first and greatest commandment?
1Cor 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Ernest T. Bass
Member
I posted earlier in this thread a passage From Eze 18:2 "What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?"
This saying among the Isrealites was not to be used anymore for children do not inherit the sin of their fathers. The Israelites thought they were being punished for the sin their fathers had committed when in reality they were being punished for their own sins. Exo 34:7 says "and that will by no means clear the guilty" THis means God will continue to punish each generation when that generation sins as its fathers sinned. It does not mean each generation inherits sins from the previous generation. When it says God will not clear the guilty that does NOT mean one generation will be punished for a sin and then that guilt is cleared. It does mean God will punish each generation that sins that same sin, God does not grow tired in punishing the sinner.
Dustof the earth said:
If having a sinful nature were true, The Gentiles would "never" be able to keep the law. The Gentiles in Nineveh were going to be destroyed if they did not repent. They obeyed God by repenting in sackcloth and God did not destroy them. How did their supposed corrupt nature allow them to obey God? No one is perfectly sinless but if having a sinful nature were true, then "everyone" would be sinning "all the time" and no one would ever be able to do right.
Mark 12:30 "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment."
If no one were able to keep this commandment then NO ONE will be saved.
Jn 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments "
Jn 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."
Men love God by keeping His commandments "and his commandments are not grievous" 1 Jn 5:3 So men are able to keep God's commandments. It would make no sense for God all throughthe bible to give men commandments and expect those commandments to be kept if it were impossible for men to keep them.
dustoftheearth said:
Earthy means man is born with a phyiscal body but is still created in God's image.
Heavenly means man will die physically and put off the earthy, physical nature and take a spiritual, heavenly nature.
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OldJesushippie
Member
I stepped away for a few days, and there are an additional 150 posts.
I can't keep up, so I'm just going to observe.
I can't keep up, so I'm just going to observe.
O
Osgiliath
Guest
This is all pagan mythology fused with Christianity that is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures. If what you say is true, then Jesus and John were lying; period!
John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning."
1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning."
Reread my last two posts. They explain Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 Scripturally - without the added pagan leaven mixed into the loaf.
Just jump in as the Lord leads you and welcome back.
Well, since I quoted word for word verse by verse and only adding who God was talking to, which was Ezekiel, and to whom Ezekiel was to speak to (Satan ) then you are saying God and Ezekiel and I guess Isaiah, since you threw that in the post, by the way is the same God speaking to Isaiah in Chapter 14, so you are saying this is all pagan making God, Ezekiel and Isaiah pagans!!! What Jesus and John was saying is from the beginning when Satan was cast to the earth, not when he was first a created angel of God. Does an apple rot at it's beginning, no. It is pleasant to the eye and the taste palate when it is connected to it's life source, but once disconnected from the tree falls to the ground and begins to rot.
Yodas_Prodigy
Member
We are born with a sin nature inherited from our fathers. Adam was created innocent and then sinned. His progeny carries the inherited fallen nature.
Jesus, of course, is sinless.
That is just one of the reasons his Father is God. So that he would not have a sin nature. Traducianism...Sorry if that is spelled wrong....