Are we born with a sin nature?

[iLOVE]

that has nothing to do with salvation " Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the Lord." only one way to say this and its this your wrong..there is no scripture to back up what your saying. besides the law was our teacher untill Christ came. john 3 we must be born again

26 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron: 27 “How long will this wicked community grumble against me? I have heard the complaints of these grumbling Israelites. 28 So tell them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord, I will do to you the very thing I heard you say: 29 In this wilderness your bodies will fall—every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. 30 Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun. 31 As for your children that you said would be taken as plunder, I will bring them in to enjoy the land you have rejected. Numbers 14

 

[childeye]

Yes - we are born with a sin nature. The "supposed" fall of man is nowhere mentioned anywhere in Scripture because all the writers of God's word knew that "the vessel of clay...was marred in the hand of the Potter."

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

Paul agrees with Jeremiah:

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

1 John 2:16 tells us,

• 1 John 2:16 "For ALL that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

Eve, and Adam with her, committed all these sins BEFORE she ever touched the tree.

• Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food [The lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [The pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Before Eve ever touched the tree her "made-subject-to-vanity" (Romans 8:20) nature was already working in her to show her the fact that her Creator had formed her naked and of the corruptible dust.


Eve committed "all [sin] that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" before she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and since she was a "vessel of clay... MARRED in the Potter's hand" and since she was "made...of the dust of the earth" and since she was "shapen in iniquity" and since she was "made subject to vanity, not [because of any supposed self] willingly, BUT BY REASON OF HIM who subjected the same in hope."

Since all these scriptures agree that man was "made to be sin," it should therefore become obvious that man had nowhere to 'fall.' He never was in the kingdom of heaven. He never had eaten of the tree of life, and corruptible "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" to begin with.

It was incorruptible flesh that is FIRST, the SPIRIT comes AFTERWARD, not the other way around, as Paul tells us:

• 1 Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29] , but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:47 The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood ["the first man Adam"] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

"The first man Adam" was created out of the dusty clay of this earth, as the "flesh and blood... old man". "Flesh and Blood" "cannot inherit the kingdom of God".


The so-called "fall of man" is dispelled by Paul in these two verses:

• 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.

The fact of scripture is that "the vessel of clay [Adam as he was originally made] was MARRED in the Potter's hand."

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

It is by divine design that we find ourselves in this weak corruptible, dying , condition. Adam's sin was not merely the result of his disobedience. His disobedience was the result of the fact that he was "marred in the hand of the Potter," and he "was shapen ['in the hand of the Potter'] in iniquity, and in sin..."

• Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Good post with lot's of relevant scripture.

 

[ezra]

26 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron: 27 “How long will this wicked community grumble against me? I have heard the complaints of these grumbling Israelites. 28 So tell them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord, I will do to you the very thing I heard you say: 29 In this wilderness your bodies will fall—every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. 30 Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun. 31 As for your children that you said would be taken as plunder, I will bring them in to enjoy the land you have rejected. Numbers 14

this has nothing to do with salvation

 

[iLOVE]

26 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron: 27 “How long will this wicked community grumble against me? I have heard the complaints of these grumbling Israelites. 28 So tell them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord, I will do to you the very thing I heard you say: 29 In this wilderness your bodies will fall—every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me. 30 Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun. 31 As for your children that you said would be taken as plunder, I will bring them in to enjoy the land you have rejected. Numbers 14

(Num 1:3-45)(Num 26:2,4)(1 Chr 27:23)(2 Chr 25:5)

 

[wayseer]

Predistination must exist for prophecy to exist.

In other words, the prophets are not real prophets they are just actors reading their prepared script.

Even physics proves that time is relevant.

I fail to follow what you might mean here.

There also is no getting around the fact that as Christians, we believe we are saved by a promise to Abraham.

I thought we were saved through the atoning death of Jesus.

 

[wayseer]

It is imperative to have all kids baptized from the moment they are born. God The Holy Spirit guides you and helps you. If you fail to do so you will only have your conscience which is your soul. Therefore the flesh will win and do the horrible things you posted.

The God I worship is not a God that generates fear. Did not Jesus free us all from such a mindset?

 

[ezra]

It is imperative to have all kids baptized from the moment they are born. God The Holy Spirit guides you and helps you. If you fail to do so you will only have your conscience which is your soul. Therefore the flesh will win and do the horrible things you posted.

please show bible scripture that says this........

 

[smaller]

The God I worship is not a God that generates fear. Did not Jesus free us all from such a mindset?

1 Peter 1:
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

 

[savedbygrace57]

Are we born with a sin nature?

Yes, but not when we are born again, that nature is a sinless nature born of God's Seed and Spirit !

 

[childeye]

After reading some of the posts today, I would like to say that because of the presence of spiritual blindness, I know of no age of accountability that can be reckoned, since scripture shows grown men without any accurate knowledge of right and wrong, or true and false. The Christ was crucified by men who believed they were serving god. There exists a blindness and to not acknowledge that men persecuted Christ thinking they were serving God, is also a part of that blindness.

 

[Davies]

The God I worship is not a God that generates fear. Did not Jesus free us all from such a mindset?

Hi wayseer,

I think it's obvious that we should love God with all our hearts, and that should be our primary motivation to obey God. But wouldn't you be afraid of leaving the Lord knowing you'd be walking on the blood of Jesus? This creates in me great fear, because I would value His sacrifice.

Psalm 2:10-12

New King James Version (NKJV)

10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,[a] lest [b] He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.


- Davies

 

[iLOVE]

please show bible scripture that says this........

I think it is time for you to due some bible research on your own...it will help you to grow.

 

[iLOVE]

After reading some of the posts today, I would like to say that because of the presence of spiritual blindness, I know of no age of accountability that can be reckoned, since scripture shows grown men without any accurate knowledge of right and wrong, or true and false. The Christ was crucified by men who believed they were serving god. There exists a blindness and to not acknowledge that men persecuted Christ thinking they were serving God, is also a part of that blindness.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17

 

[iLOVE]

The God I worship is not a God that generates fear. Did not Jesus free us all from such a mindset?

The fear of God equals obedience!

 

[wayseer]

1 Peter 1:
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

The epistle of Peter was written well into the second century and has little to do with what Jesus taught.

 

[wayseer]

Hi wayseer,

I think it's obvious that we should love God with all our hearts, and that should be our primary motivation to obey God. But wouldn't you be afraid of leaving the Lord knowing you'd be walking on the blood of Jesus? This creates in me great fear, because I would value His sacrifice.

God can stand some walking on if that's your only fear.

 

[wayseer]

The fear of God equals obedience!

Get it right.

The 'fear' of God is the beginning of wisdom.

'Fear' here means respect and awe and has nothing to do with your own psychological dependence.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

We all have a sin nature as we have all been conceived and born into a sinful world by that of Satan's deceit. IE: the fall of Adam and Eve being deceived by Satan using the serpent as his vessel, Genesis 3:1-15. Like Adam and Eve we are created and born without sin as God created each of us and can not even look upon sin so why would God create us sinful, John 9:31; Romans 8:7,8: Mark 15:34 (God did not forsake his son on the cross, but had to look away as Jesus was taking all our sin upon himself.

Adam and Eve were created sinless, but placed into a sinful world because of Satan being cast down to the ground and became sin to the nations before that of God creating Adam, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17. They lost sight of God for a temporary moment and paid the penalty of their sin by God casting them out of the garden and placing them into a sinful world. There is nowhere in scripture that actually says Adam or Eve repented and asked for forgiveness, but we do see that God provided for them as he made them clothing from animals to cover their shame and we can correlate that as the first animal sacrifice for the atonement of sin (shame) leading up to that of Jesus being the final sacrifice for sin as God clothes us in His righteousness.

Genesis 3:21-24 we see God clothing them and also sending them out of the garden for judgment passed on them so they could not eat from the tree of life and literally live forever, but to now having to work the land God provided for them outside of the garden and eat from it till they returned back to the dust of the ground through physical death. We can also read in Genesis 4:1 that Eve gave birth to Cain and exclaimed she got a male child from the Lord so I do feel they repented and God forgave them as God continued to provide for them, but not the way in which He intended to in he garden.

David’s transgressions were from a sin nature of being born into a sinful world and not that of being born a sinner when he made the statement in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. David’s transgressions were that of lusting after things that were not his, 2 Samuel 12:1-24, in wanting more than what God had already blessed him with and he became an angry man full of greed until God humbled his heart through the death of his son he had with Bathsheba and once David was humbled he returned back to Gods grace and became that man of God that God predestined him to be.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. They are not born astray, but stray into sin after birth by that of sin that is already in the world that deceives them. A child will imitate that of the adults around them so they will either imitate that of God and His goodness in love as seen in their parents or will imitate that of evil that is taught by their parents. The child does not know yet of good or evil, but their life will be influenced by what

If man was born with a sinful nature then man is not responsible for his own sins, God would be responsible. That would have God causing men to be born with a sinful nature then God punishing men for the way God made them to be.

 

[Davies]

God can stand some walking on if that's your only fear.

Hi wayseer,

If you understood what I was saying, you wouldn't say that.
Hebrews 10:28-29

New King James Version (NKJV)

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?



- Davies

 

[childeye]

If man was born with a sinful nature then man is not responsible for his own sins, God would be responsible. That would have God causing men to be born with a sinful nature then God punishing men for the way God made them to be.

Not necessarily so. A sinful nature could simply be the consequence of taking God for granted. We all take life for granted. We are born taking our parents for granted in the same way. We took paradise for granted and were tempted to better our station under God. We take all that is good for granted when we distrust Him. If the creation is presented a Holy and True Image of God for a reason, is it not then assumed correctly that the world has a corrupt image of righteousness? Since we are in time and God is timeless, how then is it that God makes men the way they are when He is not finished making them yet?