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Are we born with a sin nature?

facts? really that contradicts what god does.he killed children via the word of the prophet.

unless you think a judgement by god doenst mean one is lost.

23 And he went up from thence unto Beth-el; and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him: 'Go up, thou baldhead; go up, thou baldhead.' 24 And he looked behind him and saw them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tore forty and two children of them. 25 And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.
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2 kings 2
 
jasoncran said:
facts? really that contradicts what god does.he killed children via the word of the prophet.

unless you think a judgement by god doenst mean one is lost.



2 kings 2
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I don't understand your point! You are talking about death for being disobedient. I am talking about the age of accountability for atonement...up to 19 you do not have to atone for your sins.
 
really? i know a kid who repented of his sins and died four days later as forewarned by the pastor of my church. i know the kid personaly

and yet those kids were UNDER 19. so if they can disobey and they did then why did God slay them?

Kids murder, lie and cheat and steal. and yet according to you they dont have to repent? what?
 
jasoncran said:
really? i know a kid who repented of his sins and died four days later as forewarned by the pastor of my church. i know the kid personaly

and yet those kids were UNDER 19. so if they can disobey and they did then why did God slay them?

Kids murder, lie and cheat and steal. and yet according to you they dont have to repent? what?
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Again, Read it for yourself.
 
iLOVE said:
Again, Read it for yourself.
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that was in context of the judgement of YHWH for the isrealites who said our children shall be meat for the caananites.these children were innocent of the charge of rebellion and were born likely in the wilderness or when the exodus began to young to understand rebellion. that doesnt mean a boy or girl cant individually became aware of their sins at their time and not need the blood.

what of the children under 18 whom have sex and know its a sin? what of muderers? if they know its wrong and sin then what?
 
wayseer said:
... all of which is beside the point.

You have claimed that creation is predestined. If creation is predestined then creation is predestined - programmed - and there is nothing you and I can do. That means God is the creator of evil and if one is evil there is nothing one can do. Therefore Jesus death achieved nothing which means our salvation is nothing less than a sick joke.

Now I don't think you mean this at all. So I am asking you to think a little deeper rather than relying of cliches.
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Predistination must exist for prophecy to exist. Even physics proves that time is relevant. There also is no getting around the fact that as Christians, we believe we are saved by a promise to Abraham.
 
jasoncran said:
that was in context of the judgement of YHWH for the isrealites who said our children shall be meat for the caananites.these children were innocent of the charge of rebellion and were born likely in the wilderness or when the exodus began to young to understand rebellion. that doesnt mean a boy or girl cant individually became aware of their sins at their time and not need the blood.

what of the children under 18 whom have sex and know its a sin? what of muderers? if they know its wrong and sin then what?
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Yes there is wickedness in the young. We must let God be God! God told Moses to do this for atonement. Not me!
 
ok well then that was only for that generation not all of them. bar and bat mitzvhas date to moses and what is done in them?the entire TORAH in hebrew is recited by memory or read aloud. i will ask my dad on that since he was raised in the temple. not many kids could do that in english.
 
Yes - we are born with a sin nature. The "supposed" fall of man is nowhere mentioned anywhere in Scripture because all the writers of God's word knew that "the vessel of clay...was marred in the hand of the Potter."

  • Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."


Paul agrees with Jeremiah:

  • Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."



1 John 2:16 tells us,

  • 1 John 2:16 "For ALL that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."


Eve, and Adam with her, committed all these sins BEFORE she ever touched the tree.

  • Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food [The lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [The pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."


Before Eve ever touched the tree her "made-subject-to-vanity" (Romans 8:20) nature was already working in her to show her the fact that her Creator had formed her naked and of the corruptible dust.


Eve committed "all [sin] that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" before she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and since she was a "vessel of clay... MARRED in the Potter's hand" and since she was "made...of the dust of the earth" and since she was "shapen in iniquity" and since she was "made subject to vanity, not [because of any supposed self] willingly, BUT BY REASON OF HIM who subjected the same in hope."

Since all these scriptures agree that man was "made to be sin," it should therefore become obvious that man had nowhere to 'fall.' He never was in the kingdom of heaven. He never had eaten of the tree of life, and corruptible "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" to begin with.

It was incorruptible flesh that is FIRST, the SPIRIT comes AFTERWARD, not the other way around, as Paul tells us:

  • 1 Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29] , but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:47 The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood ["the first man Adam"] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."



"The first man Adam" was created out of the dusty clay of this earth, as the "flesh and blood... old man". "Flesh and Blood" "cannot inherit the kingdom of God".


The so-called "fall of man" is dispelled by Paul in these two verses:

  • 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    [*]1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.


The fact of scripture is that "the vessel of clay [Adam as he was originally made] was MARRED in the Potter's hand."

  • Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."


It is by divine design that we find ourselves in this weak corruptible, dying , condition. Adam's sin was not merely the result of his disobedience. His disobedience was the result of the fact that he was "marred in the hand of the Potter," and he "was shapen ['in the hand of the Potter'] in iniquity, and in sin..."

  • Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
 
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iLOVE said:
Go to post #18.
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that has nothing to do with salvation " Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the Lord." only one way to say this and its this your wrong..there is no scripture to back up what your saying. besides the law was our teacher untill Christ came. john 3 we must be born again
 
jasoncran said:
ok well then that was only for that generation not all of them. bar and bat mitzvhas date to moses and what is done in them?the entire TORAH in hebrew is recited by memory or read aloud. i will ask my dad on that since he was raised in the temple. not many kids could do that in english.
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New Testament, 20 and older are not required to bring a sacrifice.
 
really? then why have teens and sunday school for kids and why does the bible say train up the child where to go and he shall not depart from it when he is old?

pastor saved at three,
 
ezra said:
that has nothing to do with salvation " Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the Lord." only one way to say this and its this your wrong..there is no scripture to back up what your saying. besides the law was our teacher untill Christ came. john 3 we must be born again
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Thats your opinion and I respect that.
 
jasoncran said:
really? then why have teens and sunday school for kids and why does the bible say train up the child where to go and he shall not depart from it when he is old?

pastor saved at three,
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It is imperative to have all kids baptized from the moment they are born. God The Holy Spirit guides you and helps you. If you fail to do so you will only have your conscience which is your soul. Therefore the flesh will win and do the horrible things you posted.
 
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