Are we born with a sin nature?

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not necessarily so. A sinful nature could simply be the consequence of taking God for granted. We all take life for granted. We are born taking our parents for granted in the same way. We took paradise for granted and were tempted to better our station under God. We take all that is good for granted when we distrust Him. If the creation is presented a Holy and True Image of God for a reason, is it not then assumed correctly that the world has a corrupt image of righteousness? Since we are in time and God is timeless, how then is it that God makes men the way they are when He is not finished making them yet?

If I was born with a sinful nature it was not my choice but something forced upon me by God. God created me to be born that way then punishes me for the way He created/forced me to be born. Rom 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"...men have chosen to sin and therefore come short of the glory of God and not born short of the glory of God.

 

[Davies]

Good afternoon,

Man was definitely born in sin inherited from his father. The Bible explicitly says so.
Romans 5:12

New King James Version (NKJV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—



- Davies

 

[wayseer]

Hi wayseer,

If you understood what I was saying, you wouldn't say that.
Hebrews 10:28-29

New King James Version (NKJV)

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?



- Davies

There is a difference between quoting biblical texts and knowing the person to whom they refer.

God can handle whatever we choose to throw at him - and he will still love you.

 

[farouk]

..but if we are already 'dead in tresspasses and sins' (Ephesians 2), then how can be imagine ourselves to be, potentially, pure and holy before God? it is our nature to be dead in sin.

 

[wayseer]

If man was born with a sinful nature then man is not responsible for his own sins, God would be responsible. That would have God causing men to be born with a sinful nature then God punishing men for the way God made them to be.

You're on a roll.

 

[wayseer]

..but if we are already 'dead in tresspasses and sins' (Ephesians 2), then how can be imagine ourselves to be, potentially, pure and holy before God? it is our nature to be dead in sin.

That is the whole mystery which we call 'salvation' - it just does not make sense - thank God it does not make sense otherwise we would really be dead.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Good afternoon,

Man was definitely born in sin inherited from his father. The Bible explicitly says so.
Romans 5:12

New King James Version (NKJV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—



- Davies

Rom 5:12 "....and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

or

Rom 5:12 "...and so death passed upon all men, for that all have inherited Adam's sin or all have been born sinners"


Sinning is a choice men make not a way they are born.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

..but if we are already 'dead in tresspasses and sins' (Ephesians 2), then how can be imagine ourselves to be, potentially, pure and holy before God? it is our nature to be dead in sin.

Eph 2 does not say they were born dead in trespasses and sins.

 

[farouk]

Eph 2 does not say they were born dead in trespasses and sins.

...but you and I are not naturally sweetness and light; sorry.

By nature I needed the grace of God in the new birth.

 

[wayseer]

...but you and I are not naturally sweetness and light; sorry.

By nature I needed the grace of God in the new birth.

Indeed.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

...but you and I are not naturally sweetness and light; sorry.

By nature I needed the grace of God in the new birth.

In Eph 2 it says "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind..."

Sin was something the Ephesians in the past has chosen to walk in and they had chosen to live their manner of life in the lusts of the flesh, it was not how they were born.

So when it says the Ephesians "were by nature the children of wrath", the word nature can mean "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature". The Ephesians had habitually walked and lived in sin so long that sinning became a way of life, became part of their nature and not how they were born.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Ernest T. Bass,

If I was born with a sinful nature it was not my choice but something forced upon me by God.

Yes, it was forced upon you by God. Now you're beginning to understand God's sovereignty - in ALL things.

If you go back to post #35 in this thread, I've posted a lot of Scripture passages that break all of this down and explain it clearly and Biblically.

NOTHING was your choice with regard to your birth. What did you have to do with it? You were not consulted in the matter; you were absolutely passive in it; you had nothing whatsoever to do with it. You did not have a choice as to where or when you would be born. You had no choice as to what kind of a home or family you would be born into. Did someone say to you, "Tell me, sir - or would you rather be a ma'am? Would you like to have black hair, or blond hair? Would you like to have brown eyes or blue? Would you like to have white skin, or black, or would red, or yellow suit you better? And where would you like to live? In New York, or Texas, or Syria, or Siberia, or maybe in Israel?" Nothing of the sort! You were not even consulted. The sovereign Lord God of heaven and earth brought you into existence and ordained your path without so much as a how-do-you-feel-about-it. And you had no choice as to how you would be born, in what condition or state of being.


The fact is, we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, was "Marred in the hand of the Potter":


Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."


Paul confirms the same truth as Jeremiah:

Romans 8:20 "For the creature WAS MADE subject to VANITY, NOT WILLINGLY, but BY REASON OF HIM who hath subjected the same in hope."

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, it was forced upon you by God. Now you're beginning to understand God's sovereignty - in ALL things.

If you go back to my post #35, I've posted a lot of Scripture passages that break all of this down and explain it clearly and Biblically.

NOTHING was your choice with regard to your birth. What did you have to do with it? You were not consulted in the matter; you were absolutely passive in it; you had nothing whatsoever to do with it. You did not have a choice as to where or when you would be born. You had no choice as to what kind of a home or family you would be born into. Did someone say to you, "Tell me, sir - or would you rather be a ma'am? Would you like to have black hair, or blond hair? Would you like to have brown eyes or blue? Would you like to have white skin, or black, or would red, or yellow suit you better? And where would you like to live? In New York, or Texas, or Syria, or Siberia, or maybe in Israel?" Nothing of the sort! You were not even consulted. The sovereign Lord God of heaven and earth brought you into existence and ordained your path without so much as a how-do-you-feel-about-it. And you had no choice as to how you would be born, in what condition or state of being.

The fact is, we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, was "Marred in the hand of the Potter":

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

God's sovereignty does not force men to be sinners then punish men for being the sinners God made them to be. If God ascted in such a way He would not be loving, merciful or just.

Eze 33:11 "Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? "

God has no pleasure in men dying and being lost, His pleasure is that men turn, repent and be saved. So God would certainly not have pleasure in forcing men to be sinners just so God can punish them.

Jer 18:4 the potter did not cause/force the clay to mar in his hands, the clay did that of its own.


If God forced men to be sinners then men would have excuse, Rom 1:20.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Ernest T. Bass,

If God forced men to be sinners then men would have excuse.

Here is the Scripture Ernest. Take your time and study it.

Originally posted by Osgiliath,

Yes - we are born with a sin nature. The "supposed" fall of man is nowhere mentioned anywhere in Scripture because all the writers of God's word knew that "the vessel of clay...was marred in the hand of the Potter."

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

Paul agrees with Jeremiah:

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

1 John 2:16 tells us,

• 1 John 2:16 "For ALL that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

Eve, and Adam with her, committed all these sins BEFORE she ever touched the tree.

• Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food [The lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [The pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Before Eve ever touched the tree her "made-subject-to-vanity" (Romans 8:20) nature was already working in her to show her the fact that her Creator had formed her naked and of the corruptible dust.


Eve committed "all [sin] that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" before she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and since she was a "vessel of clay... MARRED in the Potter's hand" and since she was "made...of the dust of the earth" and since she was "shapen in iniquity" and since she was "made subject to vanity, not [because of any supposed self] willingly, BUT BY REASON OF HIM who subjected the same in hope."

Since all these scriptures agree that man was "made to be sin," it should therefore become obvious that man had nowhere to 'fall.' He never was in the kingdom of heaven. He never had eaten of the tree of life, and corruptible "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" to begin with.

It was incorruptible flesh that is FIRST, the SPIRIT comes AFTERWARD, not the other way around, as Paul tells us:

• 1 Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29] , but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:47 The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood ["the first man Adam"] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

"The first man Adam" was created out of the dusty clay of this earth, as the "flesh and blood... old man". "Flesh and Blood" "cannot inherit the kingdom of God".


The so-called "fall of man" is dispelled by Paul in these two verses:

• 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
  [*]1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.

The fact of scripture is that "the vessel of clay [Adam as he was originally made] was MARRED in the Potter's hand."

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

It is by divine design that we find ourselves in this weak corruptible, dying , condition. Adam's sin was not merely the result of his disobedience. His disobedience was the result of the fact that he was "marred in the hand of the Potter," and he "was shapen ['in the hand of the Potter'] in iniquity, and in sin..."

• Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

You said;

Originally posted by Ernest T. Bass,

God's sovereignty does not force men to be sinners then punish men for being the sinners God made them to be. If God ascted in such a way He would not be loving, merciful or just.

You're right; He wouldn't be merciful or just. This is why the demonic orthodox doctrine of "eternal torment" is ludicrous and evil. The fact that we are born with a sinful nature is not in question. There is no wiggle room when you follow the Scriptures. And it is certainly not God's sovereignty in ALL THINGS that is in question. What is in question is the satanic orthodox teaching of eternal torment that needs to be re-examined, and then discarded forever.

So you are correct; it would certainly NOT be merciful or just if God were to torment His creatures for eternity, when God Himself is responsible for the "creature being made subject to vanity" and "the vessel being MARRED in the hand of the Potter." Maybe it is time to let go of the "traditions of men that make VOID the Word of God," and instead, learn to "follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth."

 

[Davies]

Rom 5:12 "....and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

or

Rom 5:12 "...and so death passed upon all men, for that all have inherited Adam's sin or all have been born sinners"

Hi Ernest T. Bass,

Romans 5:12-14

New King James Version (NKJV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.


Here Paul explains that death passed to everyone "over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam." That tells me the sin nature passed to all the children of Adam and Eve; sinners by nature just as Osgiliath said.

Sinning is a choice men make not a way they are born.

Because men sin, we prove that we have the sin nature. Just look at our children. We didn't teach them to be selfish. They are selfish by nature.

- Davies

 

[childeye]

If I was born with a sinful nature it was not my
choice but something forced upon me by God.

Respectfully, sin is a fault in mankind, but does not mean man is to be blamed. And when it comes to a defiled conscience, we are talking about blame. The option to disbelieve God came through the devil, not God and not Adam. This raises the question of whether Adam could have intentionally even thought to distrust God. Moreover, Adam was forced to consider the veracity of the claim from Eve, while not wanting to think whether He should distrust Eve. That dilemna was forced upon his innocence by circumstances beyond his control. Sure Adam chose wrong, easily said in hindsight. But that does not mean I would have done otherwise given the same circumstances. Certainly humility will not be gained by believing I would have or even could have chose better.

So what does it say when we hold others accountable for their sins if indeed sin cannot be helped? It says we ourselves freely chose to sin in a wanton defiance of God. Hence those who believe this are saying God is not trustworthy enough to be worthy to obey. This says more about their blindness than it does about God and shows how easily men can be decieved as Adam was. We are fooled into thinking sin is freedom. But those who know sin can't be helped but is slavery, seek mercy and have mercy in a pure contriteness and humility. That's why the cross shows mercy as the hope of our salvation. So this also means that those who believe people can't help being sinners also therefore believe that God was always trustworthy and Adam was just too ignorant to make the right call. Otherwise they must conclude Adam intentionally chose to distrust God. So is it possiible to have fault but be excused? After all, we are all made of corruptible flesh, just like Adam. We see this exact same Truth spelled out on a cross when God partakes of being made flesh through suffering and says forgive them, for they know not what they do.

God created me to be born that way then punishes me for the way He
created/forced me to be born.

God's punishment is Love for our sakes. Even my dog needs to learn to not pee in the house but he is not to blame for being a dog, nor should God be blamed that he made the dog lower than Himself. That is the mind of the devil which plays both sides against the middle. Which is why Satan wants us to conclude it must be someone's fault, either God's or man"s. Besides, God partook of the worst part of man's sin because of His love for us. It's not like He hasn't shared in our plight when he took our sins upon Himself. It may appear that if you didn't choose to be born a sinner God should not find fault. But what about the fault of ignorance, and what if all sin is based on ignorant carnal reasoning? It does not imply blame which is why God has forbearance with us and is longsuffering.

 

[iLOVE]

When we are re-born you have the fullness of God in you. God has freed us from the prison of sin, not the action of sin. Your righteousness will overcome our sin actions in time.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Here is the Scripture Ernest. Take your time and study it.

Again, it does not say the potter forced the clay to mar in his hand.

You said;




You're right; He wouldn't be merciful or just.

God would not be just and merciful he He forced men to sin then punished men for the sin He forced them to commit so the bible would be a lie in calling just and merciful. How many parents that you know who force their children to do wrong just so they have the pleasure in punishing them? Again, God has no pleasure in the sinner dying and being lost but desires the lost to turn and repent. Your idea that God forces men to be lost sinners creates a contadiction within the nature of God.

This is why the demonic orthodox doctrine of "eternal torment" is ludicrous and evil.

Off topic, but hell exists as long as heaven exists. Univeralists fill people's minds with unbiblical ideas.

The fact that we are born with a sinful nature is not in question. There is no wiggle room when you follow the Scriptures. And it is certainly not God's sovereignty in ALL THINGS that is in question. What is in question is the satanic orthodox teaching of eternal torment that needs to be re-examined, and then discarded forever.

So you are correct; it would certainly NOT be merciful or just if God were to torment His creatures for eternity, when God Himself is responsible for the "creature being made subject to vanity" and "the vessel being MARRED in the hand of the Potter." Maybe it is time to let go of the "traditions of men that make VOID the Word of God," and instead, learn to "follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth."

There is no verse that says man is born with sinful nature. Again you are trying to make the potter force the clay to mar when the text does not say such. The context in Jer 18 goes on to say "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.", Jer 18:8,10
How the 'clay' or nation behaves in the potter's hand determines what the potter does with it, if the nation repents it will be a vessel of honor if it does not epent a vessel of dishonor. The potter does not randomly shape vessels for no particular reason. Paul says as much "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.", 2 Tim 2:21

 

[iLOVE]

Again, it does not say the potter forced the clay to mar in his hand.



God would not be just and merciful he He forced men to sin then punished men for the sin He forced them to commit so the bible would be a lie in calling just and merciful. How many parents that you know who force their children to do wrong just so they have the pleasure in punishing them? Again, God has no pleasure in the sinner dying and being lost but desires the lost to turn and repent. Your idea that God forces men to be lost sinners creates a contadiction within the nature of God.



Off topic, but hell exists as long as heaven exists. Univeralists fill people's minds with unbiblical ideas.



There is no verse that says man is born with sinful nature. Again you are trying to make the potter force the clay to mar when the text does not say such.

Psalm 51:5

New International Version (NIV)

5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

 

[farouk]

Psalm 51:5

New International Version (NIV)

5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

iLOVE:

Well, exactly.

We can't try to force a holy God into excusing indwelling sin, merely because arguments driven by secularism might suggest that God is bound to respect the so called 'rights' of his rebellious creatures. We need God's wondrous grace, not 'rights'.

"All of grace, yes, grace surpassing, such a portion to bestow,
But the love, all knowledge passing, grace has taught us now to know.
Love that bore the stripes and sorrow, love that suffered on the tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow, with the loved ones, you and me."