Aren't these witchcraft practices?

[Rick W]

Eternal piunishment is very much a part of the gospel. But that's not what people want today... "Accept Christ in your life and all be be peaches and creme after you die." Well, what happened to repentance? John came preaching repentance, Christ came preaching repentance, the apostles came preaching repentance... why? Because of the divine wrath of eternal punishment!
Without punishment there's no need to repent. Without punishment there can be no judgment. Without eternal damnation there is no gospel, no good news. And without the gospel there is no Savior.
True repentance consists of:
Personal reflection of sin
Acknowledgement of divine wrath
Rejection of religious ritual for salvation (Baptism by water alone does not save)
Spiritual renewal - change of behavior/attitude
Faith in the true Messiah - Jesus Christ

 

[Orion]

You make us out to be evil people that preach a gospel of doom and gloom Orion.
I'd like you to remember something here, we Christians didn't write the
rules for salvation, Jesus suffered the most horrible death, back in that day crucifixion was considered to be the worst form of execution devised by mankind. And to sit here
reading your post thinking he did it all for you, aren't you just a little bit ashamed? :

How could you say this Orion??

Christians sure DID write the rules for salvation. You can read their writings within the New Testiment.

I'm well aware of the physiological affects of Roman crucifictions. They did a bunch of them.

 

[Orion]

And, what does it mean to "join Christ", in your opinion?

Ephesians 2:18-21
Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us.
A Temple for the Lord
So now you Gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners. You are citizens along with all of God’s holy people. You are members of God’s family. Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. We are carefully joined together in him, becoming a holy temple for the Lord.

But HOW do you with join with Christ? How is it done?

 

[Orion]

Eternal piunishment is very much a part of the gospel. But that's not what people want today... "Accept Christ in your life and all be be peaches and creme after you die." Well, what happened to repentance? John came preaching repentance, Christ came preaching repentance, the apostles came preaching repentance... why? Because of the divine wrath of eternal punishment!
Without punishment there's no need to repent. Without punishment there can be no judgment. Without eternal damnation there is no gospel, no good news. And without the gospel there is no Savior.
True repentance consists of:
Personal reflection of sin
Acknowledgement of divine wrath
Rejection of religious ritual for salvation (Baptism by water alone does not save)
Spiritual renewal - change of behavior/attitude
Faith in the true Messiah - Jesus Christ

Of COURSE there's reason to repent (stop doing stupid stuff) outside the posibility of ETERNAL punishment! You can realize that YOU need to make a change in YOUR life for the good of yourself and those around you.

Who says there is "no gospel" without "eternal damnation"? Look at your statement logically.

So, because Christianity has a harsher (ie. MORE SCARY) penalty for "not obeying", then it makes it more true than any of the other religions? Even when a person never feels any connection with said religion? :-?

 

[Rick W]

Many want the shareware version of Christianity as it appears you do. Christianity "Lite" does little good unless you sign up for the full version.

If you don't want to believe eternal divine punishment that's your perogative but not believing one part of the gospel will make the rest untrustworthy to the unbeliever when they decide to ditch what they don't like. It becomes easier and easier to do so.

The gospel cannot be preached properly without preaching full repentance. Many want to shy away from what they feel is unrighteousness on God's part by humanizing God's judgment as people want it to be citing that God is a loving God. He is a loving God. He sent His Son to die for you and me. Again, it's a serious business and not a game. And many pastors/preachers would rather tickle the ears of a congregation to fill the collection plates by making them feel good about themselves rather than preaching honest self-appraisal as a sinner and the consequences of those that reject the truth.

 

[Rick W]

Christ didn't take the suffering he took and die on the cross the way He did if there was no urgency on the Father's behalf. What Christ withstood in all that suffering reflects that urgency of consequence in that most extreme manner, crucufiction by the hands of the Romans. Eternal damnation is serious and not open to the court of public opinion. That consequence is preached throughout scripture from the patriarchs and prophets of the OT to Jesus Christ Himself, John the Baptist and the apostles in the NT. There is simply no way to circumvent eternal damnation other than recognising the danger and accepting Christ as you Lord and Saviour.
And yes, it's SCARY. It's FRIGHTENING! When one gets even a small grasp of what's in store for those that rebel against the love of the Father then and only then can one have an appreciation for the act of self sacrifice on Christ's part doing the will of the Father. And that comes through a full and honest repentance from sin.

 

[Orion]

Again, . . . . I don't see the reason why someone would state "No full repentance without eternal damnation". There are preachers out there that don't believe in eternal damnation and have biblical scripture to back that up. "Eternal Damnation" does make for a good "scare people into conversion" tactic, though, but as I point out, you can find passages that don't back up the ED claim.

 

[Rick W]

It's your choice.
Follow the wide road or the narrow road. Follow those preachers if you like but when the journey is over they will not be able to take you back where you once were for they themselves will not be able to return.

 

[Orion]

You miss the point I'm making. THEY have passages on their side as well. Who's right? The one with the "more scary outcome"? What if it is the one with the more humane outcome?

What if YOUR road is the wrong path? The preacher in question wasn't a Unitarian pastor! . . . . .And no, not Joel Osteen either.

 

[Rick W]

What if it is the one with the more humane outcome?

Attempts at humanizing God should be your first clue.

Go ahead. Go to those preachers to hear what you want to hear. They'll be more than happy to oblige.

 

[Orion]

They have BIBLICAL passages they use! So, they're wrong and you're position is right?

Funny how the same [supposedly perfectly inspired] document can have two completely different views, both sides insisting that they are right. Too much indecisiveness in Christianity.

By the way, . . . why WOULDN'T God be "humane"??? :-?

 

[Alabaster]

And, what does it mean to "join Christ", in your opinion?

Ephesians 2:18-21
Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us.
A Temple for the Lord
So now you Gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners. You are citizens along with all of God’s holy people. You are members of God’s family. Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. We are carefully joined together in him, becoming a holy temple for the Lord.

But HOW do you with join with Christ? How is it done?

You accept by faith that Jesus has paid the price for your sin and then you literally put your trust in Him to lead you and to live His life through you, changing you to become more and more like Him. It is done by trusting and obeying the Word of God and the direction of the Holy Spirit who takes up residence within you--for every part of your life!

We join with Him and He becomes a constant loving companion! Forever!

 

[Orion]

You accept by faith that Jesus has paid the price for your sin and then you literally put your trust in Him to lead you and to live His life through you, changing you to become more and more like Him. It is done by trusting and obeying the Word of God and the direction of the Holy Spirit who takes up residence within you--for every part of your life!

We join with Him and He becomes a constant loving companion! Forever!

And, for someone like me, who doesn't see anything different in believing this message over another? Faith is pretty fickle, you know. There are people in other faiths that have as much, maybe more, faith than Christians do. They just happen to believe the religious writings of another religion.

I saw no "loving companion" by my side, when I was in Christianity. And "having faith" that it is there is the problem. And I can't "trust or obey" what is in the Bible because some of it is against my moral standards, and is against the laws of physics, geology, and logistics.

 

[Alabaster]

You accept by faith that Jesus has paid the price for your sin and then you literally put your trust in Him to lead you and to live His life through you, changing you to become more and more like Him. It is done by trusting and obeying the Word of God and the direction of the Holy Spirit who takes up residence within you--for every part of your life!

We join with Him and He becomes a constant loving companion! Forever!

And, for someone like me, who doesn't see anything different in believing this message over another? Faith is pretty fickle, you know. There are people in other faiths that have as much, maybe more, faith than Christians do. They just happen to believe the religious writings of another religion.

I saw no "loving companion" by my side, when I was in Christianity. And "having faith" that it is there is the problem. And I can't "trust or obey" what is in the Bible because some of it is against my moral standards, and is against the laws of physics, geology, and logistics.

Faith in anything but Jesus Christ is dead faith. They can have "more" faith in something than someone else, but it is still in something that is DEAD. Christians even with a tiny bit of faith have much much more! It is a living faith and a living hope in a living Saviour and God!

Who would want to have faith in someone's words, when the living Word of God breathes life and healing and wholeness into a person???

If you really accepted Jesus Christ as Saviour, He was right there, but you were looking somewhere else.


YOUR MORAL STANDARDS? Well, there's your problem! You are setting yourself ABOVE GOD, and sitting in judgment of Him. Who do you think you are, really? The spoken word of God CREATED the laws of Physics, Geology and Logic! Haha! Too funny!


Titus 1:15-16
Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted. Such people claim they know God, but they deny him by the way they live. They are detestable and disobedient, worthless for doing anything good.

 

[Orion]

Faith in anything but Jesus Christ is dead faith. They can have "more" faith in something than someone else, but it is still in something that is DEAD. Christians even with a tiny bit of faith have much much more! It is a living faith and a living hope in a living Saviour and God!

Who would want to have faith in someone's words, when the living Word of God breathes life and healing and wholeness into a person???

I would bet that those same religions would say that YOUR faith is a "dead faith". I completely disagree with the muslim religion, but they seem to be MORE devout that most Christians.

Even so, . . . it is STILL just "faith" in that which cannot be seen, felt, heard, touched, etc.

Also, how do you descern this "life, healing, and wholeness" in your life? Many people from other faiths have these things as well.

If you really accepted Jesus Christ as Saviour, He was right there, but you were looking somewhere else.

So it was my fault that I didn't "sence God right next to me". :-? I'm supposed to "have faith that God is standing there by my side". I've never been all that successful with "blind faith".

YOUR MORAL STANDARDS? Well, there's your problem! You are setting yourself ABOVE GOD, and sitting in judgment of Him. Who do you think you are, really? The spoken word of God CREATED the laws of Physics, Geology and Logic! Haha! Too funny!

Who said I was setting myself up above anything? Just you, apparently, but it wasn't anything I said or believe. Regardless, I am completely capable of knowing that I've missed the boat on something. And as far as I'm concerned, there ARE places in the Bible (written by men, CLAIMED to be the words of God), that ARE immoral and I would refuse to do those acts. I bet you would too, if you were honest with yourself.

Physics, geology (mostly in regard to the geologic evidences), and LOGISTICS of several stories cause them to only be placed in the relm of "metaphore".

Titus 1:15-16
Everything is pure to those whose hearts are pure. But nothing is pure to those who are corrupt and unbelieving, because their minds and consciences are corrupted. Such people claim they know God, but they deny him by the way they live. They are detestable and disobedient, worthless for doing anything good.

How am I disobedient?

I do good all the time, by the way.

 

[Rick W]

They have BIBLICAL passages they use! So, they're wrong and you're position is right?

Funny how the same [supposedly perfectly inspired] document can have two completely different views, both sides insisting that they are right. Too much indecisiveness in Christianity.

By the way, . . . why WOULDN'T God be "humane"??? :-?

How much more humane do you want Him to be? He sent His only begotten Son to warn us of the path we're on and provide a means to escape condemnation. What more do you want?
Unfortunately many don't accept damnation for their sins in part because they feel the punishment is too harsh. That's their judgment, not the Father's. So they humanize His judgment comparing it with what they feel is right or wrong. They want God on their terms and not the other way around.
Yes, God loves us enough that Christ died on the cross for us.

"They have BIBLICAL passages they use!"
For example?

 

[Orion]

How much more humane do you want Him to be? He sent His only begotten Son to warn us of the path we're on and provide a means to escape condemnation. What more do you want?
Unfortunately many don't accept damnation for their sins in part because they feel the punishment is too harsh. That's their judgment, not the Father's. So they humanize His judgment comparing it with what they feel is right or wrong. They want God on their terms and not the other way around.
Yes, God loves us enough that Christ died on the cross for us.

"They have BIBLICAL passages they use!"
For example?

I don't recall all the verses, but he had several, old and new testiment. Whether or not I stated them here, it is your word against his as to "who may interpret it more correctly than the other guy". Seems like a completely inspired text wouldn't have such disparity.

Humane is giving everything out of love, yet still loving the ones that don't follow your exact PERFECT ways. The only "failure", as Christianity has it, is in someone not choosing the right faith. Inhumane would be the "my way or else", in which an ultimatum is given, and torturous eternity for the one who chooses "incorrectly".

 

[Rick W]

Inhumane would be the "my way or else", in which an ultimatum is given, and torturous eternity for the one who chooses "incorrectly".

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Well, I'm not going to argue against Christ Orion.

* He that believeth on him is not condemned
* he that believeth not is condemned

That's fairly outright don't you think? So there's your ultimatum and Christ made it.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So there is everlasting punishment. And again Christ said it, not me.

 

[Alabaster]

I would bet that those same religions would say that YOUR faith is a "dead faith". I completely disagree with the muslim religion, but they seem to be MORE devout that most Christians.

Even so, . . . it is STILL just "faith" in that which cannot be seen, felt, heard, touched, etc.

Muslims have a devotion, but it is in an idol, a demonic force. There is no "religion" on the
planet that has a Saviour that saves from sin and is alive!

Also, how do you descern this "life, healing, and wholeness" in your life? Many people from other faiths have these things as well.

No they don't. They may produce a short-lived semblance of these things but they are imparted by mind control and by demonic interference. Authentic healing and wholeness come only by the touch of the Holy Healer, Jesus Christ!

So it was my fault that I didn't "sence God right next to me". :-? I'm supposed to "have faith that God is standing there by my side". I've never been all that successful with "blind faith".

You have unbelief. You allowed yourself to become unconvinced by not following.

1 Timothy 1:19
Holding fast to faith (that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence) and having a good (clear) conscience. By rejecting and thrusting from them [their conscience], some individuals have made shipwreck of their faith.

Who said I was setting myself up above anything? Just you, apparently, but it wasn't anything I said or believe. Regardless, I am completely capable of knowing that I've missed the boat on something. And as far as I'm concerned, there ARE places in the Bible (written by men, CLAIMED to be the words of God), that ARE immoral and I would refuse to do those acts. I bet you would too, if you were honest with yourself.

NO, THERE ARE NOT. Once again, you are judging God from a position that you set yourself in which is ABOVE Him.

Physics, geology (mostly in regard to the geologic evidences), and LOGISTICS of several stories cause them to only be placed in the relm of "metaphore".

How would you know any of that if you lack full comprehension? The truth of the Word of God is revealed by the Holy Spirit who lives within us. He opens our eyes and hearts to the truth. Without the Revealer, one is at a great disadvantage for judging truth.

How am I disobedient?

We are told to guard our hearts. We must guard against unbelief. Unbelief is the result of disobedience to that command. When we come to Christ we thirst for righteousness and have a need for the Word, and we are given teachers and leaders to emulate and learn from. It blesses God.

Hebrews 3:12-19
Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. You must warn each other every day, while it is still “today,†so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ. Remember what it says:

“Today when you hear his voice,
don’t harden your hearts
as Israel did when they rebelled.â€Â

And who was it who rebelled against God, even though they heard his voice? Wasn’t it the people Moses led out of Egypt? And who made God angry for forty years? Wasn’t it the people who sinned, whose corpses lay in the wilderness? And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter his rest? Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? So we see that because of their unbelief they were not able to enter his rest.

I do good all the time, by the way.

Isaiah 64:6a
But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;

 

[Orion]

Inhumane would be the "my way or else", in which an ultimatum is given, and torturous eternity for the one who chooses "incorrectly".

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Well, I'm not going to argue against Christ Orion.

* He that believeth on him is not condemned
* he that believeth not is condemned

That's fairly outright don't you think? So there's your ultimatum and Christ made it.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So there is everlasting punishment. And again Christ said it, not me.

This preacher had some words from Christ on his side, too.