Arminianism and Calvinism

[ezra]

Yes the only way to be saved is Jesus.

However John 6 was brought up and I explained the context which was about an incident whereby some of his disciples that had been with Him for several years, turned away from following him.

He did not cast them out.

They simply chose to leave.

I don't think that particular scripture supports the theological position you are wanting to convey, since it shows those who come to him can indeed depart from Him.

Notice that Judas at this point continued to remain with Him, when other disciples had turned away from Him.


JLB

sigh* straight up the post is about
Arminianism and Calvinism not about losing your salvation. i tried to point out coming to Christ to be saved . you want to twist it around i am done

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

It depends on what you mean about coming to Christ.
Are you coming to Christ to look around, listen, maybe join. Many physical followers did that.
They followed Jesus around and listened to His preaching.
That is of no consequence... not saved yet, maybe never.

Or are you coming to Christ to stay with him and follow Him in heart and follow His message?
This is salvation.

You have eternal life as long as you STAY with Christ and follow Him in all ways to the best of your ability. And remember that God will not be mocked.

And you think others are addressing OSAS?
Think again.
Your statement here opens the door to an OSAS debate.

 

[ezra]

People, once you've made your point on an issue, let's not keep repeating it back and forth. Move the conversation forward please. And don't turn this into a OSAS thread. Thank you to those of you that are addressing Arminianism and Calvinism as per the OP.

 

[GodsGrace]

And you think others are addressing OSAS?
Think again.
Your statement here opens the door to an OSAS debate.

I know. But it had to be answered. There are new Christians reading along.
I think we all know this basic stuff. Sometimes I answer for others.
Anyway, I could steer it back. It's just I'm so far behind.
See. YOU just derailed my thread!!!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I know. But it had to be answered. There are new Christians reading along.
I think we all know this basic stuff. Sometimes I answer for others.
Anyway, I could steer it back. It's just I'm so far behind.
See. YOU just derailed my thread!!!

Lol, mea culpa, mea culpa....

 

[Papa Zoom]

Touching on OSAS as it relates to the OP is fine (and that's been done). It's staying on OSAS that's the problem. Which the mods have now warned twice about so it would be a bad idea to return to it.

I say this to point out that touching on ideas within the context of the OP is understandable. Dwelling on them ignores the OP and that's how problems arise. This is in red so no comments please. ;)

 

[MCoop]

This verse is a repeat of John 6:44 - “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Then, the very next verse explains exactly who does come to Jesus.
v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So we know who comes to Jesus. Those who listened and learned from the Father. No election here. Just some students paying attention.

Those who have heard and learned of the Father are the elect chosen by God to come to Christ in faith. That’s exactly what Christ Jesus was saying. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. John 10:26-27.

 

[GodsGrace]

This discussion seems to go around in circles, because you keep making false accusations about our beliefs.

No one is saved by works.

We are saved by grace through faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

• by grace you have been saved through faith

This refers to our initial salvation, when we are born again.

No one can do enough good works to earn the right to be born again.


There is simply no use in claiming that those who oppose Calvinism or OSAS, believe that a person can be born again because the work to earn this blessing.

We are born again through faith in Jesus Christ.

However, the condition for this is to believe.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1



JLB

Amen.

I'd like to add that those who love Him, obey Him.
As in John 14:15

If we are CHOSEN BY GOD to be saved, what would be the use of having such verses in the New Testament?
None.
We ourselves must decide to respond to God's call.
God's call is to everyone.
And then we follow God for all our days.
John 3:16

 

[MCoop]

MCoop

P.S. You were also asking about Romans 9:6
I replied to this in post no. 49 Romans 9:6 does not present a problem for the Arminian view...
Here is my reply, no. 49:

There is no problem with
Romans 9:6
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants,

God's word has not failed just because not all Jews accepted Jesus.
One is not Jewish (Israel) just because he is born of Israel (Jacob).
One must also believe in the promise and believe in the God that made that promise.

This seems simple enough to me.
Could you explain your understanding?
Paul is speaking about the Jewish nation of Israel throughout all of chapters 9 to 11 and how God elected to choose Israel for this mission. It even speaks, just after this, about Esau and Jocob --- the heirs of Abraham's promises.

I already explained it. But since God is unjust according to your opinion on whom He shows mercy to, your bias is that of an Arminian interpretation of this chapter. You refuse to see why Gods Word hadn’t failed simply because the majority of fleshly israel rejected their messiah. Paul states the promise came only to those whom God had chosen for it to come to, according to the election of grace. Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the gentiles. Romans 9:24. You cannot believe that Gods grace alone saves in Christ, if you don’t believe in election. Monergism is what is taught in scripture. Not synergistic soteriology, which is what Arminianism is

 

[GodsGrace]

I already explained it. But since God is unjust according to your opinion on whom He shows mercy to, your bias is that of an Arminian interpretation of this chapter. You refuse to see why Gods Word hadn’t failed simply because the majority of fleshly israel rejected their messiah. Paul states the promise came only to those whom God had chosen for it to come to, according to the election of grace. Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the gentiles. Romans 9:24. You cannot believe that Gods grace alone saves in Christ, if you don’t believe in election. Monergism is what is taught in scripture. Not synergistic soteriology, which is what Arminianism is

Please explain monergism and synergistic soteriology for us.

Please explain how election makes God be a merciful God.
...and how Choice given to man detracts from this mercy.

Thanks.

 

[Cygnus]

.

Amen.

I'd like to add that those who love Him, obey Him.
As in John 14:15

If we are CHOSEN BY GOD to be saved, what would be the use of having such verses in the New Testament?
None.
We ourselves must decide to respond to God's call.
God's call is to everyone.
And then we follow God for all our days.
John 3:16

Lets finish the verse...

15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.

"For God so loved the world, (the world that can't accept him) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Blue addition added to make a point.

 

[OzSpen]

Total depravity

Calvinism teaches that humanity is totally depraved. Due to the Fall, the original relationship that Adam and Eve enjoyed with God was severed by sin. This affected the entire human race, corrupting the heart, mind, and will of every person born. Thus, people's natural actions and affections, whether viewed by man as bad or good, are never pleasing to God. The Calvinist understanding of total depravity does not mean that people are as evil as they possibly could be. People still make good choices (from a human perspective), but no matter how good they may be, they never gain favor with God. While total depravity is commonly associated with John Calvin, this theological viewpoint is based on the theology of Augustine (b. 354).

• See main page: Total depravity
• Contrast with Universal prevenient grace

wondering,

You are a brave lady beginning a thread like this.

There seems to be a misunderstanding, particularly among Calvinists, that Arminius did not believe in total depravity. Please remember that to his dying day at the young age of 49 he was a Dutch Reformed minister and university professor.

What did Jacobus Arminius believe about Total Depravity? In one of his disputations, Arminius wrote:

V. In the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with “righteousness and true holiness,” and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen. i. 26, 27,) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (ii, 17,) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Ephes. iv. 24, Col. iii. 10.)

VI. But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life,) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is Under The Dominion of Sin. For “to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,” (Rom. vi. 16,) and “of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,” and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet. ii. 19.)

VII. In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, “Without me ye can do nothing.” St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: “Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.” That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man (Arminius 1977:525-526). [from my article, Do Arminians believe in election and total depravity?]​

Jacobus (James) Arminius and Reformed/Classical Arminians most certainly believed and believe in Total Depravity. I used to go to an evangelical Presbyterian church where the pastor was thoroughly a TULIP Calvinist. One time he preached that Arminius did not believe in total depravity. I asked where he got that information from. He said he has not read the Writings of Arminius but his Calvinistic professors at theological college told him what Arminius believed. I sent him the section from Arminius's writings above, but I never heard back from him.

I'll comment later on the Reformed Arminian (Jacob Arminius) view of Perseverance of the Saints.

My Nutri-Grain and mango are calling first on this Sat morning.

Oz

 

[Cygnus]

Please explain how election makes God be a merciful God.

Many people act as if God owes us salvation. Are you one of them?

John 6:23 tells us "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 3:23 tells us....for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Every human being past, present and future...except Jesus deserves eternal separation from God when they die. That is due justice. Do you agree with that?

God could have killed Adam and Eve on the day they fell. God had every right to do just that. But he didn't. Instead God let mankind exist.

From all of mankind..all that deserved justice..God choose some to be washed by the blood of Christ.

Where does the bible say God had to choose everyone..or even give everyone a chance to be saved?

Exo 33:19 And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."

 

[ezra]

.


Lets finish the verse...

15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.

"For God so loved the world, (the world that can't accept him) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Blue addition added to make a point.

were dealing with a spiritual birth in which the Holy spirit is in full control when it comes to salvation . jesus works through the Holy Spirit.... so we really have a hard time understanding the action of salvation . the spirit is like the wind we can not see it but we can feel it and see the results . we know the Blood of Jesus is the cleansing agent. we know Christ paid the price . other than that we can only testify what we have seen done.. . it is senseless to debate who can and can not be saved ..whosoever shall call is a pretty big field . what we do know is
1 Corinthians 2:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

 

[Jim Parker]

He's saying that the ability to walk righteously WAS a theological position before 1,600 AD...

He is referring to the "T" in the Calvinist "TULIP": "Total Depravity. (Man is incapable of doing anything righteous.)
That is the invention of the Calvinists at the Synod of Dordt in the 17th century.

1. Up till 1600 or so, total inability to walk righteously was not a theological position

The topic of the sentence is "inability".
The words "total" and "to walk righteously" modify (explain, clarify) the topic. (Inability)
His statement was that "inability" was not "a theological position" before 1600 or so.
That's not a double negative.

 

[Cygnus]

and how Choice given to man detracts from this mercy.

If people were given a choice to choose....people would never choose Christ.
Why? They can't. If our salvation was up to us...God couldn't extend His mercy. Our choice would detract from Gods mercy.

As we well know by now..the Father has to give you the ability to come to Jesus.
John 6:65 Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."

Why? People are dead in their sin and trespasses and can't come to Christ.

Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in MERCY, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

 

[MCoop]

Many people act as if God owes us salvation. Are you one of them?

John 6:23 tells us "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 3:23 tells us....for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Every human being past, present and future...except Jesus deserves eternal separation from God when they die. That is due justice. Do you agree with that?

God could have killed Adam and Eve on the day they fell. God had every right to do just that. But he didn't. Instead God let mankind exist.

From all of mankind..all that deserved justice..God choose some to be washed by the blood of Christ.

Where does the bible say God had to choose everyone..or even give everyone a chance to be saved?

Exo 33:19 And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."

Exactly

 

[ezra]

If people were given a choice to choose....people would never choose Christ.
Why? They can't. If our salvation was up to us...God couldn't extend His mercy. Our choice would detract from Gods mercy.

As we well know by now..the Father has to give you the ability to come to Jesus.
John 6:65 Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."

Why? People are dead in their sin and trespasses and can't come to Christ.

Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in MERCY, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

curious can you explain word for word .how we can know we been chosen and how will we know if were not the elect aka the no chance to be saved

Why? People are dead in their sin and trespasses and can't come to Christ.

i did GOD spoke to me said NOW or never .i chose now

 

[Jim Parker]

I sent him the section from Arminius's writings above, but I never heard back from him.

IT would have required that he acknowledge the truth and, having acknowledged it, to speak it.
That would have been a "No-no" in his denomination which could jeopardize his job.

Just like Luther lost his job for telling the truth.

There aren't many Luthers out there......

jim

 

[reba]

long before the 17th centery
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.