Arminianism and Calvinism

[Cygnus]

OK Cygnus.

Here's how it is.
This is a very serious conversation.
I'm not here to pass my time.

Please don't make one sentence remarks.
Reply to my posts, which require time I don't even have.
Do not reply by posting a different verse or scripture.
I reply to yours, please reply to mine.

One sentence answers get us nowhere.

Edit by staff

You called Gods mercy and grace unjust ...despite the replie I gave you from Romans...where Paul rhetorically addressed your train of thought.

Not helpful...edited


So, here's a question for you:
How can someone who is spiritually dead in their sins and trespasses choose Christ?
The bible teaches humans are a fallen people and are spiritually dead.....your Arminianism teaches humans are not dead but instead only sick. With a little help from Jesus they can heal themselves into salvation....all they have to do is choose correctly.

 

[GodsGrace]

artful horizon I doubt it was Jon Calvin who gave his name to Calvinism..
wondering... as you say That passage of Romans was to the Jews.. But the whole of Scripture is for today..
Cygnus while i agree we are all lost "adams sin" ... that does not change "whosoever" will of John 3:16

Hi Reba,
Sorry for the delay.

Every word in the bible is for us.
I am not a dispensationalist.
What Jesus said to the Jews is also for us.
What Paul said to the Jews is also for us.

If you read Romans 9-11 however, it has been discerned by those with degrees after their names, (not me) that Paul was truly speaking about the nation of Israel and how God worked His revelation and salvation plan through them, why some didn't believe, etc.

This is all I meant.

 

[artful horizon]

I agree. The problem is that we're here in this world and this is how things are.
Personally, and I say this in an open post, I trust what Jesus said about everything. Paul went into very theological matters that some cannot understand. Not even because they don't want to, or because they can't, but because they use Paul's words to back up what THEY want to believe.

OK. Anyway, I was away all day and an soooo far behind!
Good to have you here.

(I also knew about the green wood and was disgusted, as I am about the inquisition, witch burnings, etc etc. - man is truly lost)

Don't forget the hangings, the crushing to death, the guillotines, drownings, and all manner of other sadistic evils that were part of the inquisition.
I don't know about the green wood thing. There's conflicting stories about that being the method used to kill John Calvin's opponents.
Which I could see how that does come about. Calvin was trained in the law. I don't think he could cause something as inhumane to happen to someone found worthy of dying under the inquisitions form of punishment.
Also, burnings occurred in Scotland and Ireland. In England it was similar to what occurred in New England in America. People were hanged. Not burned.
Anyway, it never makes sense whatever the history to slaughter people because they're of a different faith or hold to a different reading of scripture. That's the antithesis of what the Gospel is suppose to interject into a society.

Yep, lots of pages to catch you up with. Happy reading. And it is good to be here. This makes my third forum I'm in community with in Christ. "We are everywhere!" :wink

Hold the phone. I forgot scripture support. Galatians 3:28.
I think that's one scripture that really says the divide afforded by denominations isn't meant to be. And yes, I agree that Paul was authorized by Jesus inspiration to keep his teachings going and he is therefore a great teacher in that regard.
Paul being a Pharisee knew the laws of God very well. He'd also know when led by Christ to deliver the new covenant how to rightly divide what was, the OT, and bring in the teaching as to how the New took its place.

 

[Cygnus]

We can all go to links.
Does this mean you don't understand what you believe?
Does this mean you learn from the internet?
Why can you not express yourself in your own words on such an important matter?

Could you explain how the whole world doesn't mean the whole world,
and how all men doesn't mean all men...in your own words please.

Did these inspired persons who wrote the bible not know what words meant??

Ahhhh, how much of your OP did you cut and paste? Especially the one about calvinism? Did you express your self in your own words when you did that?

Perhaps I should have cut and pasted that portion of Gills commentary. Would you have liked that?

 

[FreeGrace]

Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65. No doubt this scripture speaks of divine election

This verse is a repeat of John 6:44 - “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Then, the very next verse explains exactly who does come to Jesus.
v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So we know who comes to Jesus. Those who listened and learned from the Father. No election here. Just some students paying attention.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ahhhh, how much of your OP did you cut and paste? Especially the one about calvinism? Did you express your self in your own words when you did that?

Perhaps I should have cut and pasted that portion of Gills commentary. Would you have liked that?

No comment.
but I did not cut and paste, for those reading along.
I posted the sources. Go check them out.
And, again, you're adding NOTHING to this discussion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Exactly....and the spiritually dead...can't choose Christ.

Why? They are physically alive with a functional conscience, able to discern right from wrong, according to Rom 2:14,15.

 

[Papa Zoom]

This thread needs a time out. Personal stuff has been deleted. Some post deleted only because they quoted a deleted post. I'm not sure what to do now. Two separate mod warnings, deletions, and we still are having problems.

Well re open soon.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Reopened. Fair warning. Future personal stuff could lead to removal from the thread. Peace!

 

[Cygnus]

Why? They are physically alive with a functional conscience, able to discern right from wrong, according to Rom 2:14,15.

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, 15since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them

I never said you can't choose right from wrong. I said you can't choose Jesus when you are spiritually dead in your sins and trespasses.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your mind is convinced already that election unto salvation isn’t taught in scripture. I ask you to give an interpretation for vs 6. But you couldn’t. I’m very well in context of what Paul is trying to get across in this chapter. Why were the Jews in great number rejecting their messiah as if the word of God had failed? Well Paul explains why Gods Word didn’t fail. And goes on to explain how. Although the nation of Israel is at the forefront, individual election unto salvation and Gods supremacy in bringing about His purpose is the foundation of this chapter. Which includes both Jews and gentiles. The opinion of Arminians on this chapter is what brings confusion. It’s a perversion of the text to dodge the real issue at hand and to say it’s speaking specifically about nations. Vs 6 squashes that notion. The election of grace in salvation and the blessings that come with it, is spiritual. Arminianism and Calvinism are complete opposites when understanding soteriology. So there’s no middle ground. And what is called Calvinism today is the biblical view

Did you happen to see my post no 46?
It explains EXACTLY how Romans 9 to 11 are about the nation of Israel and not about personal salvation.

I didn't write the NIV Study Bible.
I used this bible for this study exactly because it leans toward Calvinist views.
Could you please read post no. 49 and then give YOUR interpretation ?

Calvinism is not the biblical view UNLESS you and those who believe in Calvinism can stop using Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 for your ONLY support for double predestination and eternal security.

I can go through the entire bible to support my claim. Can you?

John 3:16 says it all.
Also
2 Corinthians 5:10
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 God was reconciling THE WHOLE WORLD to Him
2 Corinthians 13:5
Galatians 2:16
Galatians 3:20-21
Galatians 3:27
Galatians 5:5

And many more...
I'll match your to mine if you can get beyond Romans 9 and Ephesians 1.

 

[GodsGrace]

MCoop

P.S. You were also asking about Romans 9:6
I replied to this in post no. 49 Romans 9:6 does not present a problem for the Arminian view...
Here is my reply, no. 49:

There is no problem with
Romans 9:6
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants,

God's word has not failed just because not all Jews accepted Jesus.
One is not Jewish (Israel) just because he is born of Israel (Jacob).
One must also believe in the promise and believe in the God that made that promise.

This seems simple enough to me.
Could you explain your understanding?
Paul is speaking about the Jewish nation of Israel throughout all of chapters 9 to 11 and how God elected to choose Israel for this mission. It even speaks, just after this, about Esau and Jocob --- the heirs of Abraham's promises.

 

[GodsGrace]

then are men saved?

JLB probably answered this, but I'm going through the thread and want to make sure.

Your question is really asking are ALL men saved.
Of course you know they're not.

God draws all men to Him,
But not all men will choose Him or desire to be saved.
We cannot know why.
Besides the verse JLB posted, John 12:32
I also like Romans 1:19-20... God has always made Himself be known, through the creation, to those who wish to be united with Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

On this subject, what shocked me was
1. Up till 1600 or so, total inability to walk righteously was not a theological position
2. Total inability or original sin which cannot be resolved is thought by some to be sexual desire

Part of the total inability concept comes from dualism of the gnostics who believed the body physical
was innately evil and the spirit ultimately pure and holy.

In practise most believers do not follow this line of thinking, though the theologians well might.

You're correct Peter.
I believe Jim Parker has misunderstood you.
You're also correct about the Original Sin having been thought to be sexual desire.
I know this for sure from priests here with whom I have spoken.
The RCC no longer teaches this.
P.S. Which proves that even they know all their doctrine may not be correct...!

 

[GodsGrace]

my 2 cents when i got saved i had NO idea what reformed or Arminianism was. nor did i have a clue what eternal security was verses walk away from our salvation . i have been in forums where the 2 is debated (argued) every day . both sides has good points . neither side will admit it... i do lean toward Arminianism and yes i do believe in free will . ( which IS NOT picking the time or place when we get saved ! } we can resist the call to salvation . you will be miserable i can testify when the spirit draws He does not do it of force .on Calvinism the pos i almost agree with ..but i cant prove it so i call it a know so salvation :amen . besides when we get to heaven God not going to ask you your pedigree of theology/religion . if you have studied out the Church flavor you feel fits your doctrine . great just dont go around trying to prove your right everyone else is wrong on a side note there are things i disagree with on Pentecostals...BUT they way they worship .when the song service is going on standing clapping... sure wouldn't hurt if all Churches go into worship like that2. lol when i went had my colonoscopy they asked me my religious preference.. i said FORGIVEN

Hi Ezra,
I agree. I tell everyone I'm Christian.
But we're here on this forum to discuss our beliefs.
I, for one, appreciate it. Even if we all don't agree on everything, at least we're talking about God and not worldy things.

Thanks for your post.
John 13:35

 

[GodsGrace]

The ones who believe are saved.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


The point being that just because God draws or enables men to come to Christ, not all will be saved.

As in John 6, where some of His disciples that were drawn to Him, did in fact turn away from following Him.


JLB

"Like"

 

[GodsGrace]

Where did you get that "information"?
Citations please.

And, if "total inability to walk righteously was not a theological position" for 1600 years then it was not a theological position for the apostles who wrote the NT and taught the next generation of believers.

It wasn't a "theological position" until someone invented it.

Jim,
PeterJens used a double negative.
Read it again ... he's right.
He's saying that the ability to walk righteously WAS a theological position before 1,600 AD...

 

[GodsGrace]

So what you both agree to is that coming to Christ is no guarantee of eternal life?

It depends on what you mean about coming to Christ.
Are you coming to Christ to look around, listen, maybe join. Many physical followers did that.
They followed Jesus around and listened to His preaching.
That is of no consequence... not saved yet, maybe never.

Or are you coming to Christ to stay with him and follow Him in heart and follow His message?
This is salvation.

You have eternal life as long as you STAY with Christ and follow Him in all ways to the best of your ability. And remember that God will not be mocked.

 

[GodsGrace]

Coming to Christ is step one.
Staying with Christ is step two.
Obeying Christ is step three.
All three are necessary for eternal life.
And, no, persevering and doing His will are not "automatic." It will take dedication and effort.

Luk 6:46-48 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.
But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

"Like"

 

[GodsGrace]

saved by grace not by law , the sequel.
Romans 6:23
2 Timothy 2:19

Hi PD,
I noticed your signature line.
Have you read Titus 3:5 lately?
If you continue on down to
Titus 3:8-15 and also before
Titus 3:1-2 you'll find that good deeds are very much spoken of here.

We come to Christ and accept Him and we are saved, through no deeds. It is a free gift.
After we accept Christ, we bring glory and honor to Him by doing what Jesus would want us to do. Some call this works -- whatever it is, I do believe we should do as Jesus says.