Arminianism and Calvinism

[FreeGrace]

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, 15since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them

I never said you can't choose right from wrong. I said you can't choose Jesus when you are spiritually dead in your sins and trespasses.

Yes, I know what you said. But you didn't follow forum rules and provide any Scripture that indicates what you said.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"This verse is a repeat of John 6:44 - “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Then, the very next verse explains exactly who does come to Jesus.
v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

So we know who comes to Jesus. Those who listened and learned from the Father. No election here. Just some students paying attention."

Those who have heard and learned of the Father are the elect chosen by God to come to Christ in faith.

Could you please follow forum rules and provide any Scripture that indicates this? I see no election in John 6:44,45.

That’s exactly what Christ Jesus was saying.

"Exactly", huh. Where? Exactly. Thanks.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. John 10:26-27.

Where does the Bible teach that Jesus elected who would be HIS sheep? Certainly not in John 10. In fact, Jesus said this about who can be saved:
"I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture." v.9

So, it's "whoever enters through Me will be saved". Not, "whoever I have elected will be saved".

 

[artful horizon]

Then show me a verse that says we don't deserve hell.

I did not make the assertion, you did.

 

[FreeGrace]

Many people act as if God owes us salvation. Are you one of them?

There is nothing in any of her posts that would lead to such a conclusion.

From all of mankind..all that deserved justice..God choose some to be washed by the blood of Christ.

Do you know who He chose? Believers. 1 Cor 1:21.

Where does the bible say God had to choose everyone

This is cheapshot question. No one has even hinted this. However, we do have these verses from 1 Tim 2:
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

..or even give everyone a chance to be saved?

This is also an easy one:
2 Cor 5:14,15 -
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

1 Tim 2:6 - who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Exo 33:19 And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."

And the Bible actually tells us to whom He will be gracious and show compassion and mercy:
Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Please note the sequence here.
1. let the wicked forsake their ways and thoughts
2. let them turn to the LORD
3. AND He will have mercy on them.

Paul quoted from Isaiah:
25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26 “ ‘Go to this people and say, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ Acts 28

This passage has the same meaning as Isa 55. God has mercy on and heals those who turn to Him.

The exact opposite concept of Calvinism.

 

[FreeGrace]

The result of being born again is belief.

Could you please follow forum rules and cite Scripture that supports your claim here?

In fact, Eph 2:5 says " made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

Notice that "made us alive" is equated with "you have been saved". iow, they go together. Can't have one without the other.

Then, in v.8 we see how we are saved: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—"

The words "through faith" is key. In order to be saved, we must have faith. So, faith PRECEDES being saved.

The exact opposite of Calvinism.

 

[OzSpen]

Uncertainty of perseverance

Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit, sufficient to enable them to persevere in the faith. However, it may be possible for a believer to fall from grace. This is in contrast to the Calvinist's Perseverance of the saints.

See main articles: Perseverance of the saints and Assurance of salvation Not all Arminians have historically embraced this fifth point as stated. Some have embraced a form of eternal security which does not require perseverance in the faith and an attitude of repentance for final salvation. The majority of Arminians, regardless of their position on this point, still affirm that man retains libertarian free will throughout the entirety of earthly life.

wondering,

What was Arminius's teaching on the Perseverance of the Saints? This is from the Writings of James Arminius:

V. THE PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS
My sentiments respecting the perseverance of the saints are, that those persons who have been grafted into Christ by true faith, and have thus been made partakers of his life-giving Spirit, possess sufficient powers [or strength] to fight against Satan, sin, the world and their own flesh, and to gain the victory over these enemies—yet not without the assistance of the grace of the same Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ also by his Spirit assists them in all their temptations, and affords them the ready aid of his hand; and, provided they stand prepared for the battle, implore his help, and be not wanting to themselves, Christ preserves them from falling. So that it is not possible for them, by any of the cunning craftiness or power of Satan, to be either seduced or dragged out of the hands of Christ. But I think it is useful and will be quite necessary in our first convention, [or Synod] to institute a diligent inquiry from the Scriptures, whether it is not possible for some individuals through negligence to desert the commencement of their existence in Christ, to cleave again to the present evil world, to decline from the sound doctrine which was once delivered to them, to lose a good conscience, and to cause Divine grace to be ineffectual.

Though I here openly and ingenuously affirm, I never taught that a true believer can, either totally or finally fall away from the faith, and perish; yet I will not conceal, that there are passages of scripture which seem to me to wear this aspect; and those answers to them which I have been permitted to see, are not of such a kind as to approve themselves on all points to my understanding. On the other hand, certain passages are produced for the contrary doctrine [of unconditional perseverance] which are worthy of much consideration [in my article,
​

So Arminius’s view was that:

1. It is not possible for Christian believers, through the work of Satan, to be dragged out of their salvation in Christ. So a true Christian believer can never finally fall away from the faith.

2. BUT, there are some passages of Scripture that give us the aspect of falling away from the faith.

3. BUT, there are also some passages that support the unconditional perseverance that are worthy of much consideration.

His writings that follow the above statement give some further clarity on his views. But from his own exposition on ‘Perseverance of the saints’, he was not prepared to state categorically that a person can fall away from the faith, but there were verses that indicate both ways – conditional perseverance and unconditional perseverance. I find that fence-sitting view not to be helpful. [from my article, Arminius on perseverance of the saints]

Oz​

 

[Papa Zoom]

This may be of interest to some but it's two hours. ;) A formal debate can be instructive in what each side believes and promotes.

 

[OzSpen]

Thanks for the history lesson.

My chief problem with the Arminian views on free will is this...

Your choice of accepting or rejecting Christ is based upon your individual path in life coupled with happenstance.
If you get dealt a good hand you might accept Christ. If you get dealt a bad hand you may tend to reject Christ.
In other words your choice to accept or reject Christ really isn't your own but the bias life gave you.

For example there are some people who hate certain groups of people. The reason for their hate might be that's what they were taught. Their bias may be that they will always hate that particular group of people. In a sense they will never choose that particular group of people as "friends". Their bias has stripped them of the possibility for friendship.

Cygnus,

In the light of your objection to the Arminian concept of free will, how does your explanation here line up with the teaching on free will in Joshua 24:15 (NIV)?

But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord' (emphasis added).​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

This may be of interest to some but it's two hours. ;) A formal debate can be instructive in what each side believes and promotes.

Papa,

Professor Roger E. Olson is a professor at a Southern Baptist Seminary and a convinced classical/Reformed Arminian. He has written this article: What's wrong with Calvinism?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I never said you can't choose right from wrong. I said you can't choose Jesus when you are spiritually dead in your sins and trespasses.

What did the Philippian jailer do when he asked this of Paul & Silas?

29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’

31 They replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.’ 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptised (Acts 16:29-33 NIV).​

This rebellious Philippian jailed who was dead in his sins was able to ask Paul and Silas, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?'

Paul & Silas's simple message was, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household'. They did NOT say, 'You will not be able to believe in the Lord Jesus until regeneration comes first. Then you'll be able to have faith'. Even though dead in trespasses and sin, the jailer and household could believe.

How is that possible? Titus 2:4 (ESV) explains: 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

God's salvation is brought to all people, but only those who choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are saved.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I still read john 3;16 just like it is written
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

reba,

Are you aware that 'believeth' and 'have' are Greek present tenses? Tenses in Greek generally refer to the kind of action rather than the time of action. So the meaning of that section of John 3:16 is: 'whoever continues to believe in him should not perish, but continues to have everlasting life'. Therefore to guarantee that one does not perish and does experience everlasting life, one must continue to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Then show me a verse that says we don't deserve hell.

Try 2 Peter 3:9 (NIV): 'The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance'.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

those

For many are called but few are chosen

 

[Jim Parker]

reba,

Are you aware that 'believeth' and 'have' are Greek present tenses? Tenses in Greek generally refer to the kind of action rather than the time of action. So the meaning of that section of John 3:16 is: 'whoever continues to believe in him should not perish, but continues to have everlasting life'. Therefore to guarantee that one does not perish and does experience everlasting life, one must continue to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

If people were given a choice to choose....people would never choose Christ.
Why? They can't. If our salvation was up to us...God couldn't extend His mercy. Our choice would detract from Gods mercy.

Cygnus,

That is false according to 3 NT verses:

1. Titus 2:11, 'For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people' (NIV). This makes it possible for Paul & Silas to say to the Philippian jailer and his household,
   
2. '"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household' (Acts 16:31 NIV).
3. Do any secular people have an excuse when they stand before God at the end of time as unbelievers?

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse (Rom 1:18-20 NIV).​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Monergism is what is taught in scripture. Not synergistic soteriology, which is what Arminianism is

That's your assertion; I don't find it in Scripture. I do find it articulated in the monergistic Westminster Confession of Faith:

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice (Chap 3, sections VI-VII).​

What kind of 'glorious justice' is it where God damns a big chunk of humanity by his unconditional election to damnation? Seems a strange understanding of 'justice' to me.

Oz

 

[ezra]

Then show me a verse that says we don't deserve hell.

i am going to side with you on this WE do deserve hell.but thanks to GRACE THOSE WHO GET SAVED get Grace and thus we get a stay out of Hell/eternal lake of fire /eternal damnation is there a scripture that says thus saith the Lord ?not that i know of.. why else would Christ say it was finished ? so yes in reality we do but Grace justified say we dont go

 

[MCoop]

That's your assertion; I don't find it in Scripture. I do find it articulated in the monergistic Westminster Confession of Faith:

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice (Chap 3, sections VI-VII).​

What kind of 'glorious justice' is it where God damns a big chunk of humanity by his unconditional election to damnation? Seems a strange understanding of 'justice' to me.

Oz

Well when one feels as if God owes fallen humanity mercy, I guess it does sound strange doesn’t it? But Paul anticipated this strange understanding you have.. Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou will say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? Who hath resisted His will? Romans 9:18-19. The Westminster confession put it beautifully. No believer will disagree with what was said in what you quoted from it

 

[ezra]

Well when one feels as if God owes fallen humanity mercy, I guess it does sound strange doesn’t it? But Paul anticipated this strange understanding you have.. Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Thou will say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? Who hath resisted His will? Romans 9:18-19. The Westminster confession put it beautifully. No believer will disagree with what was said in what you quoted from it

God owes us nothing and i am more than familiar with reformed/calvinism .i use to post on a regular bases in a forum ... one thing you all love romans :9 Jacob i loved Esau i hated .. so you need come up with new material you will agree on whosoever will . but change the meaning in what peter wrote not willing ANY should perish but all come to repentance , see you change the toward us
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to "us-ward," not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. o yes i am more than familiar ,, there is nothing you can post but what i have already seen

 

[MCoop]

God owes us nothing and i am more than familiar with reformed/calvinism .i use to post on a regular bases in a forum ... one thing you all love romans :9 Jacob i loved Esau i hated .. so you need come up with new material you will agree on whosoever will . but change the meaning in what peter wrote not willing ANY should perish but all come to repentance , see you change the toward us
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to "us-ward," not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. o yes i am more than familiar ,, there is nothing you can post but what i have already seen

And I am very familiar with pelagianism/Arminianism. There is nothing in scripture that justifies sinful man has the will or ability to come to Christ in truth. But yet Arminians love to use John 3:16 to espouse free will and self sovereignty. Who’s stopping whosoever from coming to Christ? Whosoever mourns over their sin and seeks deliverance from it, let them come! Whosoever hungers and thirst for righteousness, let them come! Whosoever seeks mercy, let them come unto Christ, for He alone gives rest to the weary guilty sinner. Eternal life is in Christ! Righteousness and forgiveness is in Christ Jesus! What “Calvinist” denies this? None. But let it be known, that those who do come to Christ in faith have been chosen to do so by Gods Sovereign grace. Acts 13:48. That’s a truth the Arminian can’t receive. You say God owes us nothing but yet will call God unjust for choosing to show mercy on some and not others. Edited out