At the revelation of Jesus Christ...

[Eventide]

Seriously... Yes, there is...

The problem with full preterism is that it is satisfied with the historic anti-type, and thus doesn't perceive the need for Grace to be extended into other fields of context.
The problem with full futurism is that it doesn't recognize the historic anti-type, and thus doesn't recognize the benefits of Grace to creation beyond a narrow, guarded world view.

LOL.. thanks for a good laugh Sinthesis.. I needed it.

Now there's some substance..

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Sinthesis,

Seriously... Yes, there is...

The problem with full preterism is that it is satisfied with the historic anti-type, and thus doesn't perceive the need for Grace to be extended into other fields of context.
The problem with full futurism is that it doesn't recognize the historic anti-type, and thus doesn't recognize the benefits of Grace to creation beyond a narrow, guarded world view.

Amen Sinthesis :nod

Thank the Lord there are a few who SEE and "HEAR what the Spirit says to the churches." I was beginning to worry - even though I should know there is no need to worry:

1 Kings 19:14, 18 "And he said, 'I have been very zealous for the Lord God of hosts; because the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left...'"
Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal."


Futurism/Dispensationalism is 1/3 Christ. Preterism (full) is 1/3 of Christ. Neither are His fullness. Jesus Christ informs us 11 times in the book of Revelation that He "IS, WAS, And IS TO COME" (Revelation 1:8).

'IS' is always primary and is always before 'Was.' Preterism puts 'Was' as primary. Revelation says, "Keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book, for the time IS at hand" (Revelation 1:3). Preterism (by default) says 'How can I possibly 'keep' what is in the past?' A preterist knows only 1/3 Christ, a dispensationalist knows 1/3 Christ, a person who believes that the entire book is all about the here and 'now only', knows 1/3 Christ. Any combination of these thirds, which does not include all three, fails to know exactly who Christ IS (not just WAS or WILL BE - but IS).


Christ is not divided. Here is who He IS in His fullness:


Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."


What is true of Christ, is true of His Word. His Word is not dead, historical letters. It is "alive for evermore." Not being able to grasp this spiritual principle has led orthodox Christianity to split up into the various schools of thought mentioned above. Here is what Christ told us about Himself and His Words:

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth [Greek-gives life]; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I SPEAK unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life."


Christ's Words "ARE SPIRIT", and His Words are "alive for evermore." They were not just alive back in 70 A.D.


Was physical Jerusalem attacked and destroyed in 70 A.D.? Yes.

But Spiritual Jerusalem has been under attack ever since. But it takes a spiritual mind to understand such a thought. It is foolishness to the natural mind:


1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."


The natural man believes, as I have so often been told, the physical IS the spiritual. They is why he only comprehends OUTWARD, EXTERNAL events, and PHYSICAL TEMPLES made with bricks and stone, and biological, physical descendants if Abraham, etc.

Jerusalem, the 'church in the wilderness,' was destroyed and 'broken off,' in the 'was,' part of Christ. But that physical Israel is also broken off and separated from God is also true for the present and for the future. Contrary to all orthodox Christian teaching, physical Israel will never again be prominent in the eyes of God. They will not be restored to God "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in:

Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."


We are not left to guess when that is:

Ezekiel 16:51 "Samaria did not commit half of your sins; but you have multiplied your abominations more than they, and have justified your sisters by all the abominations which you have done.
Ezekiel 16:52 You who judged your sisters, bear your own shame also, because the sins which you committed were more abominable than theirs; they are more righteous than you. Yes, be disgraced also, and bear your own shame, because you justified your sisters.
Ezekiel 16:53 “When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them,
Ezekiel 16:54 that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when you comforted them.

Ezekiel 16:55 "When your sisters, SODOM and her daughters, RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, THEN YOU and your daughters will return to your former state."



When "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in then... all Israel (Samaria and Judah) shall be saved." Exactly when does "the fulness of the Gentiles come in?" Here again, is what the scriptures teach.

Ezekiel 16:55 "When your sisters, SODOM and her daughters, RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, THEN YOU and your daughters will return to your former state."


When thy sister Sodom is restored "THEN you (all physical Israel) will be restored"


Of what value is the knowledge that Jerusalem was surrounded in 70 AD, if we don't see SPIRITUAL JERUSALEM surrounded by the armies of the 'man of sin' within the temple (which YOU ARE) right now at this time?

Of what value is it for me to wonder if and when Jerusalem may or may not be surrounded again by armies in the future, if I fail to see that my citizenship is in heaven and that it is "Jerusalem above," where I am told to "set my affections?"

Colossians 3:2 "Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth."


To the preterist or dispensationalist, the time 'IS' never "at hand." Not coming to this realization, the Man of Sin will continue to have his "seat," (Greek - throne) within the members of the Body of Christ, which Paul plainly tells us is His Temple.

 

[smaller]

It's somewhat problematic to 'describe' and 'pinpoint' matters when we see our present state of being:

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

If our life is hid and technically speaking, we are dead, you know, in a 'sense,' then applying our sights to these matters does have some potential issues.

And y'all will pardon me for using if then logic.

s

 

[Eventide]

The context of the thread is the revelation of Jesus Christ which the Apostle to the circumcision directly connects with the coming Day of the Lord.. which shall come as a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child..

There are many today who actually outright DENY His coming.. and Peter addresses these as scoffers in the last days who will say that all things continue as they were since the fathers fell asleep..

Interesting isn't it.. imo it describes preterism to a t.. and infinitely more of course.. simply because it is the living and powerful word of God..

Foundational Christian doctrines are being dismissed and spiritualized away as if all things are settled and this is it.. and as the Apostle to the Gentiles plainly says.. that if in this life only we have hope.. then we're the most miserable of all men.. it's no wonder he warns of those who DO SAY that the resurrection is past already.. because they're essentially robbing the Christian of their HOPE.. when He comes in His glory with ten thousands of His saints.. in that Day, the Day of the Lord Jesus Christ..

Christians have the earnest of our inheritance in Him unto the Day of the redemption.. there's infinitely more to come..

At the revelation of Jesus Christ..

 

[Eventide]

Things which shall be hereafter...

Matthew's gospel clearly teaches that in the regeneration, the Son of man shall sit upon the throne of His glory and that His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones and they shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel.. Matthew also connects the Lord sitting upon the throne of His glory with His COMING in glory with all His Holy Angels..

Simple gospel truths being stolen away by the enemy.. who say that it's either in the here and now or that it's in the distant past.. but God forbid that it's coming in the future..

EDITED

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Eventide,

Simple gospel truths being stolen away by the enemy.. who say that it's either in the here and now or that it's in the distant past.. but God forbid that it's coming in the future.

Eventide, IS, WAS, and IS TO COME includes the future as well.

Christ's 'second' coming (as it is referred to at times) is when He comes to us and destroys the man of sin WITHIN us "with the brightness of His coming":


Luke 17:21 "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU."

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first [a "carrying away into Babylon"], and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [the old you and the old me]
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. ["Who can make war with the beast?" Revelation 13:4]
2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his [second] coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

The doctrine of '[full] preterism' is the same false doctrine which says: "the resurrection is past already" (2 Timothy 2:18). Preterists are as hung up on the letter of scripture as anyone out there (maybe more so). To a preterist, Christ's statement to the "discreet scribe"......

Mark 12:34 "And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question."


....apparently meant that "the kingdom of God," was just a block or two away. But of course this is not what Christ meant at all.


The resurrection is still yet future.

It is true that we are 'now' dead and raised up with Christ in "the earnest of our inheritance". However, even though we are dead and buried and resurrected with Christ "in earnest", we still have "the redemption of the purchased possession", to anticipate:

Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"
Romans 6:2 "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Romans 6:3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
Romans 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection."


When are we to be "in the likeness of His resurrection"?

Ephesians 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."


It is spoken (above) of in spirit, as an accomplished fact. But this is only in the "sealed with the holy spirit of promise" form at this time, "until the redemption of the purchased possession."

Ephesians 1:14 "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession [the actual resurrection], unto the praise of his glory."

If Christians would be patient and 'honest' and "rightly divide" the Word, rather than trying to make the Scriptures fit into the doctrinal molds of their denominations, or their own 'idols of the heart,' so much confusion could be avoided.

 

[Sinthesis]

There is of course a future fulfillment aspect to eschatology that will culminate in the end of the universe, but that is not our concern. What will not happen is the coming of a carnal Christian caliphate. That's really what futurists want, isn't it? Dominion over the un-elect for a thousand years? Strange then that Christ who has dominion over all, came to serve.

 

[Eventide]

Eventide, IS, WAS, and IS TO COME includes the future as well.

No kidding...

Christ's 'second' coming (as it is referred to at times) is when He comes to us and destroys the man of sin WITHIN us "with the brightness of His coming":

If you'd like to believe that the church of God, the BODY OF CHRIST, the LAMB'S wife to be... Has the man of sin within it.. Then go right ahead.. It's simply another ridiculous attack on The Lord Jesus Christ to say that there is SIN in CHRIST.. The only one who knew no sin, did no sin, and has no sin in Him..

I don't know what's more pathetic.. Those who claim that the resurrection is past already or those who say that there is SIN in CHRIST.

 

[Eventide]

There is of course a future fulfillment aspect to eschatology that will culminate in the end of the universe, but that is not our concern.

So what's your basis for this future fulfillment ? If the scriptures are already fulfilled, then what is your basis for this statement?

What will not happen is the coming of a carnal Christian caliphate. That's really what futurists want, isn't it? Dominion over the un-elect for a thousand years? Strange then that Christ who has dominion over all, came to serve.

Futurists do not want anything.. They simply believe what the word of God says in simplicity and in truth.. And they have no need to go against the clear teaching of scripture and say ridiculous things such as the resurrection of the dead is past already.

 

[smaller]

If you'd like to believe that the church of God, the BODY OF CHRIST, the LAMB'S wife to be... Has the man of sin within it.. Then go right ahead.. It's simply another ridiculous attack on The Lord Jesus Christ to say that there is SIN in CHRIST.. The only one who knew no sin, did no sin, and has no sin in Him..

I don't know what's more pathetic.. Those who claim that the resurrection is past already or those who say that there is SIN in CHRIST.

No, no liars in christianity. Say it isn't so Lord!

lol

 

[Eventide]

No, no liars in christianity. Say it isn't so Lord!

lol

It's an absolute disgrace when people attack the absolute holiness of our Lord Jesus Christ and SAY that He has the man of SIN in Him..

And people lol about it..

Christ DIED for our sins according to the scriptures.. and each and every member of His BODY has the imputed RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST Himself..

The gospel of God's Son means nothing to these folks who can speak about nothing BUT SIN....

Notice that's what they always speak about... SIN..

It's never about the righteousness or holiness of Christ and how He died for our sins.. NOPE.. it's all about SIN to these people.. and they don't stop at CHRIST.. no.. they claim that the man of SIN is within CHRIST Himself..

Now there's no doubt that those who reject Christ shall die IN their sins.. although again, each and every member of the body of Christ has their sin forgiven and covered by that precious shed blood of Christ...

The LAMB of GOD who taketh away the sin of the world..

And these folks have the audacity to speak about fairy tales..

 

[smaller]

In the arena of types and shadows in the O.T. there is presented the 'cherub.'

There are several showings of the cherub, one of the first being the guardian of Eden with the flaming sword.

Adam and Eve were 'expelled' more than likely in the eastern direction as the guardian cherub was placed to the east of Eden. Even the garden itself was planted 'eastward' in Eden.

East in the scriptures is an 'association' term to the workings of evil. There are several showings that make this connection.

In the first tabernacle the 'likeness' of the cherubs are again seen as 'wings' covering or shadowing the mercy seat.

The high priest carried into the holy of holies, a breastplate in which were contained precious stones which were representative of the 12 Tribes of Israel. These stones also appear in the construction of the heavenly temple.

But the most interesting place (to me anyway) those stones ALSO appear is here:

Ezekiel 28:
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth;

The covering cherub is in fact a WORD PICTURE of Satan, the current 'holder' of the STONES of God, who are HIS CHILDREN, presently 'covered' over by that bad actor.

It is again show here:

Ezekiel 28:14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Ezekiel 28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

This exact matter is 'allegorized' in the text in many places, again here for example:

Ezekiel 29:4
But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.

and here:

Isaiah 27:
1 In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
8 In measure, when it shooteth forth, thou wilt debate with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind.
9By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.

Even Pharaoh of Egypt is a 'natural' representation of SATAN, the covering cherub:

Ezekiel 29:3
Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

Now of course all of these matters are laid out quite intensely in the field of 'allegory' and 'parable' in the text.

Paul also opens this door here. NOBODY builds Godly foundations on the items he lists below as they are factually 'allegorical' in purposes and intentions. The BLUE being 'people' and the RED being the workings of the DEVIL and the devil, the covering cherub who will eventually be removed from the children of God when 'they' are builded in the heavenly temple.

1 Corinthians 3:12
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

These matters can be most particular in the text. They are intensely fascinating and for those who are 'led' into the mystery of these matters, they will see GOD LIVING in very vivid allegory today, right here, right now on the earth. It is quite quite amazing, once the patterns and methods are identified.

It often startles me because there is as a fact a LOT of action that is going on right now, yet not perceived by the ones who are to be perceiving and UNCOVERED.

Fortunately I know God can bring people to sight in A DAY. Even in AN HOUR.

s

 

[smaller]

It's an absolute disgrace when people attack the absolute holiness of our Lord Jesus Christ and SAY that He has the man of SIN in Him..

Sinful flesh ain't Christ E, and we all have the 'affliction'

s

 

[smaller]

The nice part of 'allegory' is no liars are allowed into the door of understanding. They can only resist that direction of understandings.

There are certain doors set into the text that one is sooner or later 'led' into to find understandings, and they can be most difficult to personally apply.

As the scripture says, when it does break forth one WILL debate with it, and it is an 'internal' debate at the beginning.

s

 

[Eventide]

Sinful flesh ain't Christ E, and we all have the 'affliction'

s

No kidding...

He bore our sins in His own body on that tree... or did you forget that portion of the glorious gospel of Christ.

And once again, if you folks desire to preach that the BODY OF CHRIST has SIN, then it simply shows that you have no understanding of the gospel of God's grace, especially with respect to the forgiveness of our sins and our being NEW CREATIONS IN CHRIST..

We're even seated with HIM in heavenly places in CHRIST... old things are passed away.. and BEHOLD.. all things are become new.

God forbid that we speak of His absolute righteousness and holiness... many would rather speak of CHRIST having SIN.. which is once again.. an absolute disgrace to the gospel of God concerning His Son..

 

[smaller]

No kidding...

He bore our sins in His own body on that tree... or did you forget that portion of the glorious gospel of Christ.

And once again, if you folks desire to preach that the BODY OF CHRIST has SIN, then it simply shows that you have no understanding of the gospel of God's grace, especially with respect to the forgiveness of our sins and our being NEW CREATIONS IN CHRIST..

We're even seated with HIM in heavenly places in CHRIST... old things are passed away.. and BEHOLD.. all things are become new.

God forbid that we speak of His absolute righteousness and holiness... many would rather speak of CHRIST having SIN.. which is once again.. an absolute disgrace to the gospel of God concerning His Son..

If the Apostles are the 'lead in' for understandings one has to take his own measure next to them, to see how factually one 'adds up' or not.

I love the self deprecation that Paul employed, and generally have found very very few that are able to take 'his measures' on the ugly side of the scale. And of course you and I have done this drill many times.

Paul had evil present with him.

Paul was the chief of sinners.

Paul only saw in part.

Paul had a devil in his own flesh.

The math is abundantly clear to me on the location of the 'man of sin' and his identity, NOT PAUL.

But one will never hear these matters in the pews of churchianity as they are actually offensive to come to terms with.

The PRIDE of Satan is rejected at the DOOR of HEAVEN.

The Word purposefully has set PERSONAL OFFENSE and even INSULT at the entryway, exactly to 'turn away' that working in anyone.

When it is accepted a man will debate with every thought he has ever had because THEN it is known that not every thought was 'just you.'

Matthew 11:6
And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

s

 

[Eventide]

The man of sin is the beast of Revelation... and according to the revelation HE shall have dominion over the entire world for a time.. and HE shall be destroyed by the brightness of the LORD's coming..

But hey.. that's just some fairy tale to many today.. and rather than accept that truth.. they'd rather say that CHRIST has SIN..

Is the church of God the BODY OF CHRIST... no doubt about it..

Did Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures... no doubt about it..

And yet we have professing CHRISTians claiming that there is SIN in the body of Christ.

Nonsense to say the least.. an absolute disgrace to the gospel of God's Son..

 

[Eventide]

Evidently Christ didn't die for your sins and evidently your sins are not covered or forgiven by the precious shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ..

 

[smaller]

The man of sin is the beast of Revelation... and according to the revelation HE shall have dominion over the entire world for a time.. and HE shall be destroyed by the brightness of the LORD's coming..

But hey.. that's just some fairy tale to many today.. and rather than accept that truth.. they'd rather say that CHRIST has SIN..

Is the church of God the BODY OF CHRIST... no doubt about it..

Did Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures... no doubt about it..

And yet we have professing CHRISTians claiming that there is SIN in the body of Christ.

Nonsense to say the least.. an absolute disgrace to the gospel of God's Son..

OK Jesus.

lol

s

 

[Eventide]

This is why you'll never hear these SIN preachers speaking of the glorious gospel of God's Son and how that HE DIED FOR OUR SINS according to the scriptures.. some men can't even attribute sin to themselves.. nope.. they're simply puppets and the devil made them do it every time..

They're basically teaching that they don't have sin.. and that it's the DEVIL ONLY who sins and that they're completely innocent in the matter..

More sheer nonsense..

Christ died for OUR SINS.. not the sin of the devil..