Bible Study Back to Basics

[JLB]

Your post implies that your skin and bones has the power to make you commit sin.
I find that untrue.
Man's flesh cannot do anything man's mind doesn't instigate. (Apart from autonomous things...heart beat, yawning, blinking, etc.)

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

• Please tell us how the Lord has led you over your lifetime, how to "not let sin reign in your mortal body"?

Paul admonishing water baptized Christians to "not let sin reign in your mortal body" is something everyone should be taught by more mature Christians to help guide in their walk with the Lord.

 

[Hopeful 2]

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

Great observation, eh ?

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Keep resisting temptation and sin has no chance of entering our temple.
Much less reigning.

Please tell us how the Lord has led you over your lifetime, how to "not let sin reign in your mortal body"?

It is written..."Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)
With the new nature I received when I was reborn of God's seed, resisting has become my nature.

Paul admonishing water baptized Christians to "not let sin reign in your mortal body" is something everyone should be taught by more mature Christians to help guide in their walk with the Lord.

So do it !!!
Don't commit sin, and sin won't be reigning anywhere !

It is written..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:6-7)
Wasn't your old man destroyed, at your crucifixion with Christ ?

 

[JLB]

Great observation, eh ?

Keep resisting temptation and sin has no chance of entering our temple.
Much less reigning.

It is written..."Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)
With the new nature I received when I was reborn of God's seed, resisting has become my nature.

So do it !!!
Don't commit sin, and sin won't be reigning anywhere !

Yes, we all eventually grow up and learn how to walk according to the Spirit.


The point is, Paul plainly admonished water baptized Christians, to not let sin reign in their mortal body, reign over them.

Water baptism does not remove the sin in our flesh; our mortal body.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, we all eventually grow up and learn how to walk according to the Spirit.

The repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins should have facilitated that.
Which do your "all" not do ?

The point is, Paul plainly admonished water baptized Christians, to not let sin reign in their mortal body, reign over them.

Yes, he is.
And the reborn take it seriously enough to obey.

Water baptism does not remove the sin in our flesh; our mortal body.

I reject your unbiblical notion.

 

[JLB]

The repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins should have facilitated that.

Yes our past sins are forgiven when we repent.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

Yes, he is.
And the reborn take it seriously enough to obey.

The problem you refuse to see is that the water baptized born again Christians still had sin in their flesh, that Paul admonished them to not let the sin in your mortal body reign over them.

The sin was still in their mortal body after water baptism.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

You will never be able to explain away the the truth that Christians have sin in their mortal body.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The problem you refuse to see is that the water baptized born again Christians still had sin in their flesh, that Paul admonished them to not let the sin in your mortal body reign over them.

The sin was still in their mortal body after water baptism.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

You will never be able to explain away the the truth that Christians have sin in their mortal body.

Biblically, I cannot agree.
Your teacher's goals were to keep you from being pure.
God can beat your teachers.

It is written..."For he that is dead, is freed from sin." (Rom 6:7)
Weren't you crucified with Christ ? (Gal 5:24)

 

[JLB]

Your teacher's goals were to keep you from being pure.

My Teacher is the Holy Spirit who leads and guides us into the truth of the scriptures.

You blatantly ignore many many scriptures about the flesh; the mortal body containing sin.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Plainly and clearly born again, water baptized Christians have sin in our mortal body.

Which is why Paul admonishes us to not walk according to the flesh.

For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:17

 

[Tenchi]

Eau contraire...
By 'Fix' you mean conversion...right ? Transformation will do.
It is neither passive or easy.
Turning from sin, and those that commit sin, is very difficult.

No, by "fix" I mean "changed according to God's will and made holy."

Do you think you are made sinlessly-perfect by dint of your own self-effort? I sure hope not.

By "passive" I meant "compelled, puppet-like, by God to live perfectly" - like Calvinists believe they are forced by God to be one of the Elect. I can see no way any sin-cursed person could think they are sinlessly-perfect except God had made them so, supernaturally. The notion that such perfection is at all attainable by human effort is repeatedly and explicitly denied by God's word (Ephesians 2:1-3; Titus 3:3; Colossians 1:21; Romans 5:6; Romans 8:5-8, etc.).

Turning from sin, and those that commit sin, is very difficult.
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins is easy enough.
The reception of the gift of the holy Ghost is dependent on those first two things being done, and is in God's hands: not ours.

Turning from sin is impossible except God aids us in doing so (John 6:44; John 16:8; 2 Timothy 2:25). We simply don't have it in us to turn from sin on our own. But when God acts by His Spirit to dwell within us, giving to us His life and working in us to change us, then it is we are changed. This is His work, however, not ours.

Philippians 1:6
6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.

Jude 1:24-25
24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,
25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Hebrews 12:2
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith...

Nobody can prove that the ability to obey God perfectly is impossible.

??? Both Scripture and the common experience of human beings indicate very plainly that the only one who has ever been able to live in perfect obedience to God was the God-Man, Jesus Christ.

Besides, it's a silly way of arguing for sinless perfection to say that "nobody can prove it is impossible." Nobody can prove we aren't all in something like the Matrix, either, just living in a complex illusion. There's always the possibility - incredibly unlikely though it is - that we are all in growth-pods, the electrical discharges of our nervous systems being drained from us for the use of AI machines. But what can be argued for as possible is not therefore probable. Especially in the light of God's word, the idea of sinless perfection is not only rendered improbable but is denied outright as being possible. I've already cited much Scripture that explains this clearly.

Pertains to those who walk in darkness, which is sin.

Nope. This is a flat-out lie. John includes himself, an apostle of Jesus Christ, the greatest contributor to the New Testament, in his words in 1 John 1:8, excluding the idea that he is speaking of "those who walk in darkness."

1 John 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

There is simply no getting around the fact that John was speaking here to born-again Christians with whom he associates himself as one who was a born-again Christian, too. John, then, had only one kind of person in mind in the passage - the Christian - who might walk in one of two ways: in the Light or in darkness. You've been shown this before but, blinded as you are by your willful persistence in error, appear unable to comprehend this plainly evident fact of the passage.

Hopeful 2 wrote:

"Sinners cannot say they have no sin, or that they have fellowship with God, or that they know Him.
Thanks be to God we can walk in the light, which is God, and in Whom is no sin !"

No, John is writing particularly of sinning Christians which we can be certain of because he includes himself - a born-again Christian - in his words in the passage above from 1 John 1. This is so obvious that it is strange to me to have to point this out.

Hopeful 2 wrote:

"If they are fleshly, they are not Spiritual."

This just isn't what the verse Paul wrote says. He called the "carnal babes in Christ" his "brethren," criticizing them for their partisan divisiveness but confirming repeatedly in 1 Corinthians 3 that he believed his readers were born-again believers. I've shown you this a number of times now and yet you continue to assert a blatant falsehood about the verse, denying its plain statement. Hopeful 2, what you want the verse to say cannot change what the verse actually says.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3 for you are still fleshly...

To anyone reading these verses without any preconceived notions about sinless perfection, there is just no mistaking that Paul was writing to fellow born-again believers and saying that, though born-again, they were still carnal in their thinking, attitudes and conduct. It is testament to the truth of God's word that you cannot see this, since 1 John 1:8 says that this will be the consequence of the denial of sin in the Christian's life that you propagate.

Hopeful 2 wrote:

The "any man" are they who have yet to use the converted's Advocate.
The "we" are those who have already used Christ's advocacy."

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Here, too, you demonstrate the truth of 1 John 1:8 in your glaring contortion of John's words.

Who is John addressing? "My little children."

Does John mean anyone who might be reading his words, saved and lost? No. He is addressing those for whom he is a spiritual parent (Galatians 4:19). And to make this crystal clear, John wrote, "If anyone sins, WE have an Advocate with the Father...", including himself as a fellow born-again believer in the things he was writing to his readers. And then, John further clarifies that he is speaking to saved people and not the unsaved world in general by writing, "...He Himself is the propitiation for OUR sins..." - that is, the sins of Christians - and also the sins of the whole world.

And so, when John wrote "...if anyone sins we have an Advocate..." he very clearly meant "myself, a born-again Christian, and those I've led to Christ who are also born-again Christians..." Again, this is very obvious and makes your dismissal of it very bizarre and facile.

Hopeful 2 wrote:

"Repentance from sin comes first, before anything else."

Actually, the lost person considering the Gospel must repent of - change their mind about - many things, including their sinfulness: God's existence, Christ's deity, the Atonement for sin at Calvary, adoption into God's kingdom and family, the jeopardy of eternal hell, etc. All of these things for the lost person have to be accepted, their godless, sinful beliefs abandoned, at the same time. So, no, repentance from sin doesn't "come first." The lost person must accept that God exists, and that Jesus was God incarnate before they can accept what God says about them being a sinner in need of a Savior, who is Jesus Christ.

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

Hopeful 2 wrote:

"As one who has been granted the ability to walk in and after the Spirit, I find I cannot do the things of the "flesh".
I pray that you one day know my joy."

I walk in the Spirit more and more as the days pass, God coming into view with increasing clarity and fullness as this is happening, and the good things of God filling my life to an ever-greater degree. How wonderful and excellent He is! I hope you one day can win free of the self-deception and darkness in which you presently live and enjoy God truly in the way His word describes.

Hopeful 2 wrote:

"The truth you refer to is apparently not the truth Jesus said could free us from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)
I reject the false truth that has enslaved so many to continued service to sin."

Here, again, you're operating within a false dichotomy. It isn't that the Christian must be perfectly sinless or lost, but that they are "growing up into the head, who is Christ," moving from spiritual infancy to spiritual maturity in the Spirit, from "milk" to "meat" spiritually.

John 8:31-34
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

How does this passage begin? Does Jesus say, "If you continue in perfect obedience to God's commands, the you are truly disciples of mine"? No, he doesn't say this. It is by "continuing in his word" that the Jews who believed Jesus would reveal that they were truly his disciples. In so doing, they would be made free by the truth.

The Jews misunderstood Jesus, however, and objected to his implication that they were not free as a nation. Jesus clarified his meaning, telling the Jews that any of them committing sin were slaves to their sin. But he didn't stop at this clarification. Jesus went on to explain that the "truth that sets men free" (vs. 32) was himself, the Son who makes sinners "free indeed." Not merely "continuing in his word," not avoiding committing sin, but being "in him," the Son who makes sinners free from enslavement to their sin.

Did Jesus mean to say that when he made a person "free indeed" that he would make them forever sinlessly perfect? Well, actually, yes, he did. But this perfection was his and only imputed to those who had, by faith in him as Savior and submission to him as Lord (Romans 10:9-10), "put on Christ."

Galatians 3:26-27
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Romans 13:14
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ...

Ephesians 1:4-6
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

In the born-again person's spiritual position in Jesus Christ, the Beloved, they are clothed in his perfect righteousness (not their own), like a person is clothed in a bear-skin coat. But just as wearing a bear-skin coat doesn't make a person actually a bear, being clothed in Christ's perfect righteousness doesn't make a Christian actually sinlessly perfect. But this is what you're proposing, Hopeful 2, obviously silly though the idea is. You're asserting that the person in the "bear-skin coat" of Christ's righteousness is actually a perfectly righteous "bear." But both God's word and the common experience of Christian's deny this thinking.

Hopeful 2 wrote:

"I reject your false gospel.
It is saddled with partial rebirths, and semi repentant doctrines.
It is of the devil."

Does it help you feel more confident in the face of the truth about your false doctrine to state your denial of the Truth? I suspect what is most important to your denial is your description of the Truth of God's word as "your false Gospel." So long as you can convince yourself that what I've shown you from God's word is just my "false Gospel," then you can remain settled in your error. This slippery self-deception may work with you, but it doesn't work with God or anyone else thinking through, honestly and carefully, what I've pointed out from God's word.

Hopeful 2 wrote:

"Diverse minds have differing approaches to topics.
Sometimes the 'unconversion' from false churches is more difficult than 'conversion' to the truth of Christ."

??? This is an entirely deflective response to my question. Again, what "attainment" is necessary for one who is sinlessly perfect? There can be no "attainment" necessary; for sinless perfection necessarily requires a perfect understanding, and exercise, of all that is necessary to being sinlessly perfect: a perfect knowledge of God's word, perfect faith in His word, perfect love of God, perfect submission to God, perfect walking in the Spirit, perfect fellowship with God, and perfect glorification of God. The idea that sinless perfection does not entail perfection in these other things, denies the plain declaration of Scripture. (Romans 10:14; Psalm 119:11; Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 22:36-38; Romans 12:1; Romans 6:13; Galatians 5:16, 25; 1 John 1:3b; 2 Corinthians 13:14; 2 Corinthians 10:31, etc.)

So, do you possess a perfect knowledge of God's Truth, Hopeful 2? No. Do you possess a perfect love for God? Obviously not. Do you possess perfect faith in all God has revealed in Scripture? Again, obviously not. And so on.

The fact is, you would have to have a perfect understanding of what sinless perfection is in order to know that you are sinlessly-perfect. But when I've asked you in the past to explain what perfection is, you've given a very facile and deflective answer by saying, "Just look at Jesus. He's perfect." This answer is akin to saying, "I have a perfect understanding of how planes fly" but when asked what such perfect knowledge means, you reply, "Well, just look at the planes flying overhead." This answer is, obviously, no answer at all. My considering the planes flying through the sky doesn't explain to me your perfect knowledge of how the planes are doing so. In the same way, pointing at Jesus in answer to the question of how you know what sinless perfection is, actually says nothing about what you understand of sinless perfection.

This is so, of course, because no finite, sin-cursed, imperfect, relatively ignorant human being can understand what sinless perfection - or any perfection, really - is.

Hopeful wrote:

"Our opinions differ."

No, you disagree with the plain and repeated statement of God's word.

Hopeful 2 wrote:

"Your doctrine is dedicated to tearing down what Christ has built up.
It is the Debby-downer of the universe."

No, God's Truth is only a "Debby-downer" to those who deny it. And far from tearing down Christ's eternal, supernatural work, I am learning to live in it more and more as the days pass, and so find your attack on his truth, the truth that is so life-transforming and powerful, quite abhorrent.

Hopeful 2 wrote:

"Part of our different perspectives may be due to your version of the King James bible.
In it, Heb 10 :14 says..."For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
Your version won't admit sanctification can actually be completed.
More partial rebirth, and semi-repentance based doctrine."

Hebrews 10:14
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

It wasn't a single version of the Bible that I cited that rendered the last part of Hebrews 10:14 as "being sanctified." There are, in fact, a good number of versions of the Bible that render the verse this way. Why? Because, in the Greek of the New Testament, "are being" is a legitimate form of the verb participle of the verse.

If, then, there is any unwillingness to admit, it is on your part, Hopeful 2, not on the part of the translators of the verse. Leave off your error before you grow even more hardened and blinded to God's Truth. God will not be mocked. If you sow self-deception, you will reap the harvest God promised in 1 John 1:8 to an ever-increasing degree.

 

[Hopeful 2]

My Teacher is the Holy Spirit who leads and guides us into the truth of the scriptures.

You blatantly ignore many many scriptures about the flesh; the mortal body containing sin.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

If you don't commit sin, sin can't even be in God's new creature.

Plainly and clearly born again, water baptized Christians have sin in our mortal body.

There is your error...thinking it is your vessel.

Which is why Paul admonishes us to not walk according to the flesh.
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:17

Walk in the Spirit and you won't walk in, or after, the flesh. (Gal 5:16)
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
Why have you not crucified the flesh ?

It is written..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32,34)

Why hasn't your truth freed you ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, by "fix" I mean "changed according to God's will and made holy."

Good.
Me too.

Do you think you are made sinlessly-perfect by dint of your own self-effort? I sure hope not.

Not at all.
It is the result of obedience to Peter's Acts 2;38 monologue.

By "passive" I meant "compelled, puppet-like, by God to live perfectly" - like Calvinists believe they are forced by God to be one of the Elect. I can see no way any sin-cursed person could think they are sinlessly-perfect except God had made them so, supernaturally. The notion that such perfection is at all attainable by human effort is repeatedly and explicitly denied by God's word (Ephesians 2:1-3; Titus 3:3; Colossians 1:21; Romans 5:6; Romans 8:5-8, etc.).

I agree, obedience is a result of love for God and neighbor, and not "just because".

Turning from sin is impossible except God aids us in doing so (John 6:44; John 16:8; 2 Timothy 2:25).

Whom won't God help ?
He gave us what we need to hear in order to quit sinning.
Some just want to blame God for their own reticence.

We simply don't have it in us to turn from sin on our own.

It is a choice each man must make.
Nobody gets a head start.
Your POV makes it God's fault that so many will be raised to everlasting destruction.

But when God acts by His Spirit to dwell within us, giving to us His life and working in us to change us, then it is we are changed. This is His work, however, not ours.

In your eyes then, anyone who has not really turned from sin can blame God for not supplying His Spirit so they can actually turn from sin.
Is not that the essence of Calvinism ?

??? Both Scripture and the common experience of human beings indicate very plainly that the only one who has ever been able to live in perfect obedience to God was the God-Man, Jesus Christ.

By water baptism into Him, we can live as He lived.

Besides, it's a silly way of arguing for sinless perfection to say that "nobody can prove it is impossible." There's always the possibility - incredibly unlikely though it is

I wish you had stopped there.
Jesus died so we could be turned into something better than what we had been born as.
Not everyone wants to be better.
I did, and God gave me the way to see it through.
He will for you too, when your sorrow for sins reaches His level of sorrow. (2 Cor 7:10)

Nope. This is a flat-out lie. John includes himself, an apostle of Jesus Christ, the greatest contributor to the New Testament, in his words in 1 John 1:8, excluding the idea that he is speaking of "those who walk in darkness."

You seem unable to differentiate between the verses pertaining to those who walk in darkness from those that pertain to those who walk in the light.
Here is a quick helper...Darkness, is sin...(Pro 4:19)
Light, is God. (! john 1:5)
It is the sinners that cannot say they have no sin, or that they have fellowship with God, or that they even know God !
Those walking in God, can say yes to all those things !

There is simply no getting around the fact that John was speaking here to born-again Christians with whom he associates himself as one who was a born-again Christian, too. John, then, had only one kind of person in mind in the passage - the Christian - who might walk in one of two ways: in the Light or in darkness. You've been shown this before but, blinded as you are by your willful persistence in error, appear unable to comprehend this plainly evident fact of the passage.

Born again Christians don't walk in darkness.
They walk in God, in Whom, is no sin !

Hopeful 2 wrote:
"Sinners cannot say they have no sin, or that they have fellowship with God, or that they know Him.
Thanks be to God we can walk in the light, which is God, and in Whom is no sin !"
No, John is writing particularly of sinning Christians which we can be certain of because he includes himself - a born-again Christian - in his words in the passage above from 1 John 1. This is so obvious that it is strange to me to have to point this out.

Light vs darkness.
God is light, so anyone walking the light walks in God...in Whom is no sin.

Hopeful 2 wrote:
"If they are fleshly, they are not Spiritual."
This just isn't what the verse Paul wrote says.

Man can only be one or the other.
Don't deceive yourself.

Hopeful 2 wrote:
The "any man" are they who have yet to use the converted's Advocate.
The "we" are those who have already used Christ's advocacy."
1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Here, too, you demonstrate the truth of 1 John 1:8 in your glaring contortion of John's words.

Do you walk in light, or darkness ?
Those who have used the Advocate stay in the light.
Those who commit sin are still in darkness.
They are the ones who need Christ's advocacy.

Hopeful 2 wrote:
"Repentance from sin comes first, before anything else."

Actually, the lost person considering the Gospel must repent of - change their mind about - many things, including their sinfulness:

Thank God you finally realized that sin is of the utmost importance when it comes to repentance !

God's existence, Christ's deity, the Atonement for sin at Calvary, adoption into God's kingdom and family, the jeopardy of eternal hell, etc. All of these things for the lost person have to be accepted, their godless, sinful beliefs abandoned, at the same time. So, no, repentance from sin doesn't "come first." The lost person must accept that God exists, and that Jesus was God incarnate before they can accept what God says about them being a sinner in need of a Savior, who is Jesus Christ.

If a man won't quit sinning, he won't get anything from God.
A true, real, permanent, turn from sin is essential for anything else to occur.

 

[Tenchi]

Not at all.
It is the result of obedience to Peter's Acts 2;38 monologue.

Acts 2:38
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Are you thinking that these things - your repentance and water baptism - save you? There is only one Savior who saves us (Acts 4:12; John 14:6). We don't contribute anything to our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

I agree, obedience is a result of love for God and neighbor, and not "just because".

Obedience to God is the result of the Spirit's love being "shed abroad" in our hearts (Romans 5:5). His love is the "fruit" of who he is, expressed in our life (Galatians 5:22), that prompts our obedience to God's commands. And if it isn't, then all we might do for God is spiritually useless.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Whom won't God help ?
He gave us what we need to hear in order to quit sinning.
Some just want to blame God for their own reticence.

No man comes to Christ except the Father draws him, Jesus said (John 6:44). God has given the Gospel, yes, as part of the means by which He draws people to Christ. And the Holy Spirit, too, works to convict the world of "sin, righteousness and judgment" (John 16:8), enabling people also to repent (2 Timothy 2:25). But, in the end, we must choose to humble ourselves under the Truth of the Gospel and by faith trust in Christ to save us. This choice God leaves entirely up to us to make.

Your POV makes it God's fault that so many will be raised to everlasting destruction.

Nope. See above.

In your eyes then, anyone who has not really turned from sin can blame God for not supplying His Spirit so they can actually turn from sin.
Is not that the essence of Calvinism ?

Nope. See above. It isn't that it's all on us to be saved, or it's Calvinism. You seem to operate in these odd, unbiblical false dichotomies...

No one is saved who has not been aided to salvation by God. But God doesn't force anyone to be saved, as Calvinists believe.

By water baptism into Him, we can live as He lived.

Water baptism is merely symbolic. It has no salvific power whatever. We live as Christ lived ONLY by the power of the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit.

He will for you too, when your sorrow for sins reaches His level of sorrow. (2 Cor 7:10)

What an incredibly hubris-laden statement this is. Wow.

You seem unable to differentiate between the verses pertaining to those who walk in darkness from those that pertain to those who walk in the light.

No, I actually understand the verses just as they are given, making no contortion to them at all. You, in contrast, have denied what the verses plainly say, shoehorning your sinless perfection idea into them, like Cinderella's stepsisters with the glass slipper. I've already shown from the text of the verses that what you say here is entirely false.

It is the sinners that cannot say they have no sin, or that they have fellowship with God, or that they even know God !
Those walking in God, can say yes to all those things !

Already dealt with. See my last post. Or simply read John's words as he gave them, without your sinless perfection "glasses" on. The horrible thing about such "glasses" is, though, that the longer you wear them the more difficult it is to take them off.

Born again Christians don't walk in darkness.
They walk in God, in Whom, is no sin !

Simply saying this doesn't erase all that I've shown from God's word to the contrary. You are in gross error and these repetitions of your error can't make this change. Christians should walk in the light but they often don't - as the New Testament repeatedly illustrates.

Man can only be one or the other.

Nope. Wrong. Christians can be "carnal infants in Christ" like the Corinthian Christians; they can be "dead but alive" like the Sardisian Christians; they can be spiritually "poor, blind, naked and wretched" like the Laodicean Christians; they can be like the Christians at Rome who thought God's grace was a reason to live in sin; they can be like the believers in the province of Galatia who had migrated from life in the Spirit back into fleshly law-keeping. And so on. It's just a lot of unbiblical baloney that Christians don't sin.

Do you walk in light, or darkness ?
Those who have used the Advocate stay in the light.
Those who commit sin are still in darkness.
They are the ones who need Christ's advocacy.

Nope. See above.

Thank God you finally realized that sin is of the utmost importance when it comes to repentance !

Clearly, you have understood very little of what I've written.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hopeful 2

If we as a Christian are without sin (sinless perfection) being perfect while here on Earth living in this corruptible mortal body, then why does this corruptible have to put on incorruption and this mortal become immortal before we are caught up to meet Jesus in the air. 1Corinthians 15:50-58.

Paul struggled with sin even after his conversion on the road to Damascus, Romans 7:7:25.

Sinless perfection is not found in scripture and a dangerous false teaching that can lead others away from God for they feel they are not worthy. Yes, God says to be Holy as He is Holy as we continue to strive for that perfect. Complete perfection only comes when Christ returns, as for now we are still mortal living in a corruptible body, but does not give us a license to sin.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Those who are Christ own do not willfully sin like we plan to do so, but we will mess up at times due to circumstances because we are not perfect, but being perfected daily

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Perfect in the above scripture means complete. In this mortal life completeness will not come until this mortal becomes immortal when we are changed according to 1Cor 15:51-55.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Acts 2:38
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Are you thinking that these things - your repentance and water baptism - save you? There is only one Savior who saves us (Acts 4:12; John 14:6). We don't contribute anything to our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

I think obedience to God and to His apostles will save us.
Without that obedience, one will not endure faithfully till the end.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2
If we as a Christian are without sin (sinless perfection) being perfect while here on Earth living in this corruptible mortal body, then why does this corruptible have to put on incorruption and this mortal become immortal before we are caught up to meet Jesus in the air. 1Corinthians 15:50-58.

Old clothes wear out, but they can't make us do, or not do, anything.

Paul struggled with sin even after his conversion on the road to Damascus, Romans 7:7:25.

His written struggles were from his past while still in the flesh, and unsuccessfully trying to live the Law.

Sinless perfection is not found in scripture and a dangerous false teaching that can lead others away from God for they feel they are not worthy.

You may want to rethink that erroneous statement...
It is written...“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)
"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2)

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

Yes, God says to be Holy as He is Holy as we continue to strive for that perfect. Complete perfection only comes when Christ returns, as for now we are still mortal living in a corruptible body, but does not give us a license to sin.

Oh, I see...He really said "Try to be holy for I am holy".
Your denials threatens your eternal judgement.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Those who are Christ own do not willfully sin like we plan to do so, but we will mess up at times due to circumstances because we are not perfect, but being perfected daily

All sin is willful. (James 1:14-15)

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Perfect in the above scripture means complete.

No. It means "perfect".

In this mortal life completeness will not come until this mortal becomes immortal when we are changed according to 1Cor 15:51-55.

A bad paint job won't cause the motor to run badly.
You are blaming disobedience on your packaging.

 

[Tenchi]

I think obedience to God and to His apostles will save us.
Without that obedience, one will not endure faithfully till the end.

So your error is compounded with works-salvation. Yikes.

 

[JLB]

If you don't commit sin, sin can't even be in God's new creature.

Sorry but there seems to be something blinding you to the simple truth of these plain and clear words from scripture.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Plainly and clearly born again, water baptized Christians have sin in our mortal body.

Which is why Paul admonishes us to not walk according to the flesh.


If you choose to walk according to your flesh then that is your choice.

 

[for_his_glory]

Old clothes wear out, but they can't make us do, or not do, anything.

His written struggles were from his past while still in the flesh, and unsuccessfully trying to live the Law.

You may want to rethink that erroneous statement...
It is written...“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2 Cor 13:11)

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)
"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2)

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

“Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)


Oh, I see...He really said "Try to be holy for I am holy".
Your denials threatens your eternal judgement.

All sin is willful. (James 1:14-15)

No. It means "perfect".

A bad paint job won't cause the motor to run badly.
You are blaming disobedience on your packaging.

I do not agree with all of this very lengthy reply and this thread is not about sinless perfection so I would appreciate it if you no longer try to force this on others. There is no one that are perfect yet unless you live a reclusive life style.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So your error is compounded with works-salvation. Yikes.

Ask yourself, what is the future of the disobedient ?
Eternal damnation. (John 5:29)
The doctrine of "no-works-salvation" is another of the devil's ploys to encourage disobedience.
By it, nobody should resist temptation, because sin won't tarnish their resurrection and final judgement.
How stupid can one get ?