baptism for salvation?

[JLB]

Well Jethro would you care to be my opponent in a one-on-one, then we will see how true your sentiments are.
God bless,
w

I welcome any thing you might have to say about this matter.

Fire away.

Just know that John 3:5-6 has zero to do with water baptism!


JLB

 

[Webb]

I welcome any thing you might have to say about this matter.

Fire away.

Just know that John 3:5-6 has zero to do with water baptism!


JLB

Hi JLB
By a one-on-one I meant the kind where there are only 2 people doing the posting yet all may read what they have written.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well Jethro would you care to be my opponent in a one-on-one, then we will see how true your sentiments are.
God bless,
w

Why? Church of Christ doctrine is easily defeated in just a couple of posts.

Besides, after taking a healthy month off from the forums I'm presently in a 'drive-by posting' probation period. Other things are purposely being given time and space over posting here in the forums.

To start, Church of Christ doctrine can't produce any Biblical evidence that Cornelius' pre-baptism conversion was somehow a special one-time event. Nor can it explain the multitude of believers who received the Holy Spirit before their scheduled water baptism. Church of Christ doctrine insists we simply accept their opinion about why him and his family received the Holy Spirit before their immersion.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

From there, COC doctrine takes Paul's passage about the unity of believers to attempt to prove that there is (now) only one baptism...meaning everything (salvation and the giving of the Spirit) happens in a single baptism, not in two.

As Webb said in an earlier post, the Bible is it's own best commentary. We see from 1 Corinthians 1 that the first century church was divided into disciples of the person who baptized and taught them.

"10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)" (1 Corinthians 1:10-16 NIV)

This helps us see that in accordance with the context of the Ephesians passage--unity of the body--Paul is telling us there is only one name and body and person into whom we are baptized, not many baptisms into that teacher or that. To suggest Paul is suddenly interjecting a teaching in a passage about the unity of the body that there is now only one single baptism when salvation and the giving of the Spirit defies the context of what he's addressing, and has been addressing in the Ephesian letter.

Ephesians 4 is teaching us the singularity of the Church's baptism into Christ, not the singularity of a water baptism that both saves you and puts the Holy Spirit in a believer.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I welcome any thing you might have to say about this matter.

Fire away.

Just know that John 3:5-6 has zero to do with water baptism!


JLB

Actually it does.....but NOT in the way COC doctrine says it does. 'Born of water' is a reference to the customary way that people repented in order to gain entry into the kingdom--water baptism. John's baptism--a baptism for repentance (as water baptism still is).

It is in fact necessary that a person repent to see the kingdom of God. Jesus is using water baptism as a metonymy for 'repentance'. Specifically, repentance unto the Law of Moses (remember who he's talking to). Don't worry, that's not a defense of literal law keeping.

You prolly agree that 'flesh gives birth to flesh' is the same as being 'born of water'. The Bible does help us know what being 'born of the flesh' means, so in turn we can know what 'born of water' means. And it has everything to do with repentance according to the law. I'll explain. But don't worry, it has nothing to do with us being obligated to the literal law of Moses (though, obviously, it did for Nicodemus). That is another subject altogether.

 

[JLB]

Actually it does.....but NOT in the way COC doctrine says it does. 'Born of water' is a reference to the customary way that people repented in order to gain entry into the kingdom--water baptism. John's baptism--a baptism for repentance (as water baptism still is).

It is in fact necessary that a person repent to see the kingdom of God. Jesus is using water baptism as a metonymy for 'repentance'. Specifically, repentance unto the Law of Moses (remember who he's talking to). Don't worry, that's not a defense of literal law keeping.

You prolly agree that 'flesh gives birth to flesh' is the same as being 'born of water'. The Bible does help us know what being 'born of the flesh' means, so in turn we can know what 'born of water' means. And it has everything to do with repentance according to the law. I'll explain. But don't worry, it has nothing to do with us being obligated to the literal law of Moses (though, obviously, it did for Nicodemus). That is another subject altogether.

In verse 5, two births are mentioned.

Born of water.
Born of Spirit.

Verse 6, the two births are explained.

For flesh gives birth to flesh. Natural Birth.

Spirit gives birth to spirit. Spiritual birth.

1 John 5:6 also mentions this expression.

He came by water and blood. Not by water only.

JLB

 

[Webb]

Be it known to all that Jethro thus far fails to respond to the offer of a one-on-one regarding the matter he says is so easily defeated. Wonder why??

 

[JLB]

Be it known to all that Jethro thus far fails to respond to the offer of a one-on-one regarding the matter he says is so easily defeated. Wonder why??

What is your interpretation of John 3:5-6

 

[Webb]

For one thing it involves water baptism as an element of salvation.
God bless,
w

 

[turnorburn]

Webb said:

Be it known to all that Jethro thus far fails to respond to the offer of a one-on-one regarding the matter he says is so easily defeated. Wonder why??

Why not send him a pm and ask him..

tob

 

[turnorburn]

That which is born of flesh is flesh and we all know that

I Corinthians 3:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Then Jesus tells Nicodemus that he needs to be born again spiritually in order to see Gods kingdom.. those two verses are talking about two different events..

tob

 

[JLB]

For one thing it involves water baptism as an element of salvation.
God bless,
w

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

Born of water is an expression that refers to natural birth.

Verse 6 explains - That which is born of flesh is flesh.

Born again is a spiritual birth, which has nothing to do with natural water.

Acts 19 easily explains this -

1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

Johns disciples had been Baptized in water, yet they were not born again.

We are born again of the incorruptible seed of the word of God, which is the Gospel message.

having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:23

Notice what Paul says to John's disciples -

Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

These guys did mot get Baptized in water again, there were born again.

Then they were baptized in the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands by Paul, and spoke in tongues, just like the house of Cornelius and those on the day of Pentecost.

All three baptisms are clearly laid out in Acts 19.

Baptism into Christ.

Baptism in water.

Baptism in the holy Spirit.

Just as Paul taught with the use of Old Testament shadows and types.

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:1-2


all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, which together are One baptism, just as there is One God with three expressions.

7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

These three are One!

Scripture must interpret scripture.

Paul taught three baptisms.

Jesus taught three baptisms.

Acts 19 demonstrates all three baptisms.


Water baptism has absolutely nothing to do with being born again.

It does have to do with obedience to the Gospel message.

Born of water is a reference to natural birth.


JLB

 

[Webb]

Webb said:

Why not send him a pm and ask him..

tob

No need to, I know why.
God bless,
w

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Be it known to all that Jethro thus far fails to respond to the offer of a one-on-one regarding the matter he says is so easily defeated. Wonder why??

Huh? I responded. Did you miss my post?

Also, perhaps you remember me telling you months ago how a one on one would just end up with you sharing your pre-programmed, unsupported doctrine and insisting we are to see what you say it says while ignoring the Biblically based refutation I present. IOW, a one on one will be a waste of valuable time. As I said, COC doctrine is defeated in just a few posts which I can make here.

Why do you not respond to what I say about this matter?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In verse 5, two births are mentioned.

Born of water.
Born of Spirit.

Verse 6, the two births are explained.

For flesh gives birth to flesh. Natural Birth.

Paul refers to those born of Hagar as being the ones who are born 'according to the flesh':

"29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit." (Galatians 4:29 NIV)

Repentance, John's water for repentance according to the righteous requirements of the law, alone produces a natural kingdom of people--a people that cannot inherit the kingdom. Jesus says repentance is not enough. A man must ALSO be born 'again', or from above, referring to the spiritual birth in the order of Sarah.


Contrary to the popular Jewish thought of the day, a person can't see the kingdom by simply being born into Moses through the outward waters of repentance (baptism being the symbolic washing away of the deeds of the flesh), but it is still a requirement to see the kingdom, as you will agree. That's why John's baptism only prepared the way for Jesus. One must also be born again, spiritually, to see the kingdom of God.

Repentance alone can not save (that's Hagar's offspring). Yet there is no salvation without repentance. One must also be born 'again', spiritually.

"5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." (John 3:5-6 NIV)

'born of water' - repentance from dead works
(water baptism--John's baptism--being understood by first century Jews as a metonymy for 'repentance'. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/metonymy).

'born of the Spirit' - forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ (aka, 'justification')

Repentance cleanses the body. Faith in Christ (forgivness) cleanses the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Repentance, John's water for repentance according to the righteous requirements of the law, alone produces a natural kingdom of people--a people that cannot inherit the kingdom. Jesus says repentance is not enough. A man must ALSO be born 'again', or from above, referring to the spiritual birth in the order of Sarah.

John did not Baptize according to the law.

John Baptism was to announce the Kingdom of God, which the law did not.

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.


Born of water is a reference to natural birth.

Born of the spirit is a reference to spiritual birth.

Born of water means just that, nothing more.

Please read my post carefully with all the scriptures and references, and stop trying to make everything about the law of Moses which has vanished away.

The law was UNTIL John...

The law of Moses is no more.

There was no Baptism before John.

Baptism has nothing to do with the law.

There were types in the law, that pointed to baptism.


JLB

 

[Navigator]

In verse 5, two births are mentioned.

Born of water.
Born of Spirit.

Verse 6, the two births are explained.

For flesh gives birth to flesh. Natural Birth.

Spirit gives birth to spirit. Spiritual birth.

1 John 5:6 also mentions this expression.

He came by water and blood. Not by water only.

JLB

I actually brought up the same thing to my pastor and he stated that the first two are not supposed to be linked to the second two. So birth of water and spirit are supposed to be viewed together, while the flesh and Spirit contrast each other. Looking in my study Bible, the note on that passage notes the same thing: birth of water and of spirit are supposed to be taken together.

 

[Asyncritus]

This discussion has taken some strange turns.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The versions support this translation very considerably. For JLB to say that 'water' is not 'water' is surprising in the extreme.

If 'water' is not 'water' (meaning H2O) then what was Jesus doing when He baptised people? We know that He did, though not personally, presumably because the time would come when those baptised by He Himself, would be shouting - see the Lord baptised me. I'm better than you! So there!

But here's the confirmation:

Jn 3. 22 ¶ After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

We know that this was water baptism, because of the comment on what John was doing:
22 ¶ After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

[...]

26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

and

Jn 3: 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 ¶ When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

What is meant by being born of the spirit? It's right here, people:

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Notice SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, and THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDES ON HIM.

That is exactly parallel in meaning to:

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus baptised in water. Being born of 'the spirit' is the exact equivalent of 'believing on the Son'.

Not believing on the Son, is not being born of the spirit, and results in death.

Believing on the Son, is being born of the spirit, and results in life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

John did not Baptize according to the law.

He came to turn people to repentance. He came to turn people from dead works to works of righteousness--IOW, to the righteous works of the law. And for them that meant the whole law. For us repentance is in regard to the moral components of the law (the ceremonial and worship laws being satisfied in Jesus Christ). But that kind of 'birth' is still not enough to be received into the kingdom. You must (also) be born 'again', or from above. An especially relevant message to Nicodemus.

Born of water is a reference to natural birth.

It's a reference to water baptism and being born into a natural kingdom of God's people through 'repentance' (read 'obedience), like how the Israelites were 'born' into Moses' natural kingdom of God's people at the Red Sea. But Jesus says that is not enough to see the kingdom of God. You must also be born from above.

...stop trying to make everything about the law of Moses which has vanished away.

Paul is the one who tells us the law births flesh.

"...the son born according to the flesh (the man born of the law--see context) persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit." (Galatians 4:29 NIV)

You would do well to start understanding this in terms of repentance/obedience. Repentance /obedience satisfies the righteousness of the law as required, but that is still not enough to see the kingdom of God. The waters of repentance produce natural men according to the flesh. But a person must also be born from above to see the kingdom of God. He must be born of both water AND Spirit. Born of repentance AND faith in Jesus Christ. I'd be surprised to find you in disagreement that a man must also be obedient in order to see the kingdom of God.

Baptism has nothing to do with the law.

It does when you understand that what a person is repenting to in water baptism is the righteous requirements of the law--'do not steal', 'do not commit adultery', etc. But that alone only produces a natural man. One who, like the unbelieving, but law abiding Israelites, will not inherit the kingdom of God. This is Jesus' message to the Jews.

 

[JLB]

I actually brought up the same thing to my pastor and he stated that the first two are not supposed to be linked to the second two. So birth of water and spirit are supposed to be viewed together, while the flesh and Spirit contrast each other. Looking in my study Bible, the note on that passage notes the same thing: birth of water and of spirit are supposed to be taken together.

Jesus is teaching Nicodemus about spiritual heavenly things using natural earthly things as an example.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

• Born of water = that which is born of the flesh = earthly things

• Born of Spirit = that which is born of the spirit = heavenly things

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Born of water is a reference to natural child birth, and contrasts that which is born of the Spirit, which is a reference to Spiritual birth.

One refers to your natural body, the other refers to your spirit man.

In order for you to have a spiritual body at the resurrection of the dead, you must have a natural body.

You must be born of water.


44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.



JLB