Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is not at salvation

[godsquadgeek]

I have never met a believer who has said, "The gifts of the Spirit have ceased." The signs and wonders gifts have ceased. The Church lives by faith and the unseen. The folks who think that sign and wonder gifts still apply........Have CEASED/QUENCHED the REAL gift's of the Spirit that they have.


Ironic IMO. Speaking in tongues has only psychological 'proof' and experience 'proof."

Doctrine does not need to 'distort' a host of people to prove them wrong. Truth is just, well, truth. But false doctrine needs to psychologically distort folks personally, because they CAN'T use scripture to prove their 'experience.'

But I can use scripture to prove my experience, I am experiencing the book of acts and 1 corinthians, as I have posted ad nausium on this thread. Also please mention one gift of the spirit that is not miraculous. Love never fails but prophecies will fail: I Corinthians 13:8-12, but if tongues ceased permanently, then other gifts of the Spirit should also cease. And they haven't. I have received word of knowledge regarding someone that I didn't know. When I was on a youth crisis hotline I got a call from someone I could not hear, all I heard was breathing. And God told me that this was a girl who had been raped. She said, "How did you know?" I said God told me. This was the word of knowledge. I also have had discernment of spirits before, another gift. I was walking down a hill at night with a bible college buddy, and we were praying over the city. At the bottom of the hill was a fortune teller, and we knew instantly that it was demonic. But while we were praying aloud, he folded up his table and literally ran away from us. He must have seen the angels around us. Prayer is powerful.

I have never met a believer who has said, "The gifts of the Spirit have ceased." The signs and wonders gifts have ceased.

did you not read my whole last post where I post first hand observations of miracles. If the Bible has miracles, and I have experienced them, and I know people who have experienced them. And you haven't. Who is following the Bible more accurately?

 

[gr8grace3]

But I can use scripture to prove my experience, I am experiencing the book of acts and 1 corinthians, as I have posted ad nausium on this thread. Also please mention one gift of the spirit that is not miraculous. Love never fails but prophecies will fail: I Corinthians 13:8-12, but if tongues ceased permanently, then other gifts of the Spirit should also cease. And they haven't. I have received word of knowledge regarding someone that I didn't know. When I was on a youth crisis hotline I got a call from someone I could not hear, all I heard was breathing. And God told me that this was a girl who had been raped. She said, "How did you know?" I said God told me. This was the word of knowledge. I also have had discernment of spirits before, another gift. I was walking down a hill at night with a bible college buddy, and we were praying over the city. At the bottom of the hill was a fortune teller, and we knew instantly that it was demonic. But while we were praying aloud, he folded up his table and literally ran away from us. He must have seen the angels around us. Prayer is powerful.



did you not read my whole last post where I post first hand observations of miracles. If the Bible has miracles, and I have experienced them, and I know people who have experienced them. And you haven't. Who is following the Bible more accurately?

There was another flood, and I built an Ark, saved the critters and God replenished the earth with me ..........It's in the bible and I did it.......Again.

 

[FreeGrace]

Love never fails but prophecies will fail: I Corinthians 13:8-12, but if tongues ceased permanently, then other gifts of the Spirit should also cease. And they haven't.

Faulty logic. The Bible clearly notes that some gifts will cease. Not all. And for obvious reasons.

 

[godsquadgeek]

There was another flood, and I built an Ark, saved the critters and God replenished the earth with me ..........It's in the bible and I did it.......Again.

Again you post no scripture to prove your assertions. I however have posted repeatedly scripture from acts and 1 Corinthians. So who are we to believe? Also you did not reply to at least three documented miracles I posted. In conclusion, are we to believe the church age is over simply because the book of Acts was in the past? I await your response.

 

[ezra]

while i dont agree all the way with godsquadgeek he backs his belief up with scriptures . he has every right to believe how he does . when it comes our time in heaven and we stand before the judgement seat of Christ and give account.. it will be Him and him alone that has to answer ..but some how i doubt his personal doctrine as per tongues will come up.. but how did he/ we live our life. did we do what was asked of us. the only thing that will matter is our name is written in the Book of life

 

[godsquadgeek]

while i dont agree all the way with godsquadgeek he backs his belief up with scriptures . he has every right to believe how he does . when it comes our time in heaven and we stand before the judgement seat of Christ and give account.. it will be Him and him alone that has to answer ..but some how i doubt his personal doctrine as per tongues will come up.. but how did he/ we live our life. did we do what was asked of us. the only thing that will matter is our name is written in the Book of life

good post.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Faulty logic. The Bible clearly notes that some gifts will cease. Not all. And for obvious reasons.

I view allowing a gift of the Holy Spirit to cease is allowing it to fail, God does not fail however Isaiah 55:11. Besides to believe some gifts cease is to negate miracles we already have eye witnesses of, at least three that I told you. HERE IS ONE MORE: pastor chuck smith was doing a visitation to the hospital for a young boy who slammed his finger in the door and partially severed it off.Smith said to the mother, "I HAVE A PEACETHAT God will heal your son. And a week later he was not healed but they had to amputate his finger and the mom yelled at Smith. A the doctor said repeatedly that fingers don't replicate and his finger was gone. Two weeks later a finger started growing back. The doctor took interviews and pictures over the next year that this was unusual. It was published in medical journals. He gained full feeling and usability in his finger, and even got fingernails , that the doctor didn't think would happen.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The Bible clearly notes that some gifts will cease. Not all. And for obvious reasons."

I view allowing a gift of the Holy Spirit to cease is allowing it to fail

I didn't "allow" anything. I posted the Scripture that says so in 1 Cor 13:8 - Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

Are you suggesting that prophecies will not cease? Or that tongues will not be stilled? Or that knowledge will pass away?

Please advise.

God does not fail however Isaiah 55:11.

Please don't conclude that I even hinted at such rubbish.

Besides to believe some gifts cease is to negate miracles we already have eye witnesses of, at least three that I told you.

I've never challenged any of your miracles. Thats between you and God. He knows all. What I'm pointing out is that 1 Cor 13:8 specifically mentions spiritual gifts that will go away, which you seem to want to deny.

HERE IS ONE MORE: pastor chuck smith was doing a visitation to the hospital for a young boy who slammed his finger in the door and partially severed it off.Smith said to the mother, "I HAVE A PEACETHAT God will heal your son. And a week later he was not healed but they had to amputate his finger and the mom yelled at Smith. A the doctor said repeatedly that fingers don't replicate and his finger was gone. Two weeks later a finger started growing back. The doctor took interviews and pictures over the next year that this was unusual. It was published in medical journals. He gained full feeling and usability in his finger, and even got fingernails , that the doctor didn't think would happen.

Unless these medical journals can be cited, and I mean issue # and year along with the name of the journal, there is no reason to just accept anyone's word for it. If it was documented, let's see it.

 

[eddif]

II Corinthians 4:18 KJV
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen aretemporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

At a pointi in time things were hidden in the law. When John came the kingdom began to be preached

Most do not have much trouble understanding looking on the inside of ourselves rather than the outside.

Now one day the end of time will come. The spiritual gifts were given to evangelize, they will no longer be those to evangelize in heaven. So it is with prophecy. We will be around the the Father and the Son. What good will tongues and interpretation / prophecy be when the reality of face to face arrives.

When the spiritual is put on the temporal vanishes away. We just must decide when and why.

I Corinthians 15:52 KJV
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I am not yet what I will be.
Romans 7:25

eddif

 

[gr8grace3]

Again you post no scripture to prove your assertions.

I was being silly to make a point. Noah built the ark. Just because it is in the scriptures, doesn't give me the right to claim what Noah did.

I however have posted repeatedly scripture from acts and 1 Corinthians. So who are we to believe?

I have no doubt that God still preforms miracles. I have serious doubt that men can.
1 Cor 13:8~~Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

Also you did not reply to at least three documented miracles I posted. In conclusion, are we to believe the church age is over simply because the book of Acts was in the past? I await your response.

The books of Acts is describing the transition phase from Israel to the Church.

Israel was always looking for SIGNS and WONDERS to see if things were true. The Church lives by faith/doctrine/His word and the unseen.

1 Cor 1:22~~New International Version
Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,

So, the book of Acts is God giving what the Jew DEMANDED........signs and wonders. And when the Jew/Israel ultimately forsook Him, He turned His attention to the Church.........Hence, Paul and His ministry is set forth at the end of Acts.

2 Cor 5:7~~New International Version
For we live by faith, not by sight.

 

[ezra]

can we say beyond a shadow of doubt that gifts have completely ceased ? my self i am on the fence just looking at what commentators say. some have said yes then i ran across this one
Bible Commentaries
Mark Dunagan Commentary on the Bible
1 Corinthians 13
Verse 8

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never faileth: but whether {there be} prophecies, they shall be done away; whether {there be} tongues, they shall cease; whether {there be} knowledge, it shall be done away.

"never faileth"-"Love, that bears, also out-wears everything." (Gr. Ex. N.T. p. 900) "Love will never come to an end." (NEB); "Love shall never pass away." (Con)

"faileth"-1601. ekpipto {ek-pip"-to}; from 1537 and 4098; to drop away; specially, be driven out of one"s course; figuratively, to lose, become inefficient:-be cast, fail, fall (away, off), take none effect.

Points to Note:

1. The contrast in verses 8-10 is between that which endures and that which will pass away and cease. Since the spiritual gifts were never intended to be a permanent fixture among Christians, "life"s pursuit mustn"t end in gift-seeking. (What a rebuke to those whose life is a tireless quest for God"s gifts rather than God"s service." (McGuiggan p. 176)

2. Heaven isn"t a cold impersonal existence. As long as we are with God, love will always exist. (1 John 4:16)

"whether there be prophecies"-i.e. the spiritual gift of inspired preaching and teaching. ()

"done away"-"it will be done with" (TCNT). "To put out of use, to remove from the sphere of activity." (Willis p. 460) "To make idle, inoperative." (Robertson p. 178)

"whether there be tongues, they shall cease"-"they will stop." (Gr. Ex. N.T. p. 900)

"knowledge"-knowledge as the result of direct inspiration, the gift of knowledge.

Points to Note:

1. These three spiritual gifts (prophecy, tongues, knowledge), stand as representatives for all the gifts. And two of them (tongues/knowledge) the Corinthians took particular pride in.

2. The possession of a spiritual gift wasn"t necessary to gain favor with God. But the possession of love was and still is! One could lack spiritual gifts and yet still be on the "most excellent way."

3. Clearly, this verse is teaching that all the spiritual gifts would cease. A point that all concede. The only remaining question is, "when"?

Most Charismatic and Pentecostal groups would argue that the gifts would cease when Jesus comes again. They claim, "that which is perfect" (), refers to Jesus and His second coming. Problems with this view will be noted in the following verses.
i have many friends AOG PENTC who use tongues . i have spoke in tongues nor felt like i should.. i have been in many services where tongues was used. never got anything out of it. i recently visited a Pentecostal church for a Gospel singing great service . one person spoke and interpreted. i sensed the presence of the holy spirit there.

 

[gr8grace3]

can we say beyond a shadow of doubt that gifts have completely ceased ? my self i am on the fence just looking at what commentators say. some have said yes then i ran across this one
Bible Commentaries
Mark Dunagan Commentary on the Bible
1 Corinthians 13
Verse 8

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never faileth: but whether {there be} prophecies, they shall be done away; whether {there be} tongues, they shall cease; whether {there be} knowledge, it shall be done away.

"never faileth"-"Love, that bears, also out-wears everything." (Gr. Ex. N.T. p. 900) "Love will never come to an end." (NEB); "Love shall never pass away." (Con)

"faileth"-1601. ekpipto {ek-pip"-to}; from 1537 and 4098; to drop away; specially, be driven out of one"s course; figuratively, to lose, become inefficient:-be cast, fail, fall (away, off), take none effect.

Points to Note:

1. The contrast in verses 8-10 is between that which endures and that which will pass away and cease. Since the spiritual gifts were never intended to be a permanent fixture among Christians, "life"s pursuit mustn"t end in gift-seeking. (What a rebuke to those whose life is a tireless quest for God"s gifts rather than God"s service." (McGuiggan p. 176)

2. Heaven isn"t a cold impersonal existence. As long as we are with God, love will always exist. (1 John 4:16)

"whether there be prophecies"-i.e. the spiritual gift of inspired preaching and teaching. ()

"done away"-"it will be done with" (TCNT). "To put out of use, to remove from the sphere of activity." (Willis p. 460) "To make idle, inoperative." (Robertson p. 178)

"whether there be tongues, they shall cease"-"they will stop." (Gr. Ex. N.T. p. 900)

"knowledge"-knowledge as the result of direct inspiration, the gift of knowledge.

Points to Note:

1. These three spiritual gifts (prophecy, tongues, knowledge), stand as representatives for all the gifts. And two of them (tongues/knowledge) the Corinthians took particular pride in.

2. The possession of a spiritual gift wasn"t necessary to gain favor with God. But the possession of love was and still is! One could lack spiritual gifts and yet still be on the "most excellent way."

3. Clearly, this verse is teaching that all the spiritual gifts would cease. A point that all concede. The only remaining question is, "when"?

Most Charismatic and Pentecostal groups would argue that the gifts would cease when Jesus comes again. They claim, "that which is perfect" (), refers to Jesus and His second coming. Problems with this view will be noted in the following verses.
i have many friends AOG PENTC who use tongues . i have spoke in tongues nor felt like i should.. i have been in many services where tongues was used. never got anything out of it. i recently visited a Pentecostal church for a Gospel singing great service . one person spoke and interpreted. i sensed the presence of the holy spirit there.

Back when Paul was penning these Scriptures, the scriptures were not complete. So the evangelist and the teachers had to have the gift of prophecy and knowledge to teach His complete word ........The missing parts had to be taught, so God gave some the gift of prophecy and knowledge.

God imparted the gift of knowledge and prophecy to some......so they could teach and evangelize the WHOLE of Gods word because it was not all down in written form yet. When the Scriptures were complete(96AD)........The gifts of prophecy and knowledge ceased.

And when Israel fell(70AD) and God turned to the church.....tongues were stilled.

 

[ezra]

tongues were stilled.

can you show a thus saith the Lord ..i am by no means into tongues but until i see scripture showing other wise. i believe they are for today also i think many use tongues and it is just gibberish on the same hand i truly believe some fully understands them . i often wonder why the Pentecostals use them and BAPTIST DON,T , i have a brother that does not believe in them . my only point i need more knowledge to make a call. i was this way on eternal security teaching also .on a lighter note rabbit trail i mentioned a know so salvation i had a few go ballistic and demand what i meant hmmmmm

 

[godsquadgeek]

can we say beyond a shadow of doubt that gifts have completely ceased ? my self i am on the fence just looking at what commentators say. some have said yes then i ran across this one
Bible Commentaries
Mark Dunagan Commentary on the Bible
1 Corinthians 13
Verse 8

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never faileth: but whether {there be} prophecies, they shall be done away; whether {there be} tongues, they shall cease; whether {there be} knowledge, it shall be done away.

"never faileth"-"Love, that bears, also out-wears everything." (Gr. Ex. N.T. p. 900) "Love will never come to an end." (NEB); "Love shall never pass away." (Con)

"faileth"-1601. ekpipto {ek-pip"-to}; from 1537 and 4098; to drop away; specially, be driven out of one"s course; figuratively, to lose, become inefficient:-be cast, fail, fall (away, off), take none effect.

Points to Note:

1. The contrast in verses 8-10 is between that which endures and that which will pass away and cease. Since the spiritual gifts were never intended to be a permanent fixture among Christians, "life"s pursuit mustn"t end in gift-seeking. (What a rebuke to those whose life is a tireless quest for God"s gifts rather than God"s service." (McGuiggan p. 176)

2. Heaven isn"t a cold impersonal existence. As long as we are with God, love will always exist. (1 John 4:16)

"whether there be prophecies"-i.e. the spiritual gift of inspired preaching and teaching. ()

"done away"-"it will be done with" (TCNT). "To put out of use, to remove from the sphere of activity." (Willis p. 460) "To make idle, inoperative." (Robertson p. 178)

"whether there be tongues, they shall cease"-"they will stop." (Gr. Ex. N.T. p. 900)

"knowledge"-knowledge as the result of direct inspiration, the gift of knowledge.

Points to Note:

1. These three spiritual gifts (prophecy, tongues, knowledge), stand as representatives for all the gifts. And two of them (tongues/knowledge) the Corinthians took particular pride in.

2. The possession of a spiritual gift wasn"t necessary to gain favor with God. But the possession of love was and still is! One could lack spiritual gifts and yet still be on the "most excellent way."

3. Clearly, this verse is teaching that all the spiritual gifts would cease. A point that all concede. The only remaining question is, "when"?

Most Charismatic and Pentecostal groups would argue that the gifts would cease when Jesus comes again. They claim, "that which is perfect" (), refers to Jesus and His second coming. Problems with this view will be noted in the following verses.
i have many friends AOG PENTC who use tongues . i have spoke in tongues nor felt like i should.. i have been in many services where tongues was used. never got anything out of it. i recently visited a Pentecostal church for a Gospel singing great service . one person spoke and interpreted. i sensed the presence of the holy spirit there.

that commentator of that commentary is a pastor of a "church of Christ", not to say that all of those who call themselves "churches of Christ" are all the same but qot questions reveals that many of those churches deny salvation to those who don't attend their particular denomination. Just a warning to be careful about what you read and who is writing said materials.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Church-of-Christ.html

again I am not judging a church by any means, it's just that when reading commentaries, some are good sources and others are not. But I agree there will be a day when miracles cease, but it's not while the church is still in the world. As evangelism is ongoing. Another error in the commentary.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I was being silly to make a point. Noah built the ark. Just because it is in the scriptures, doesn't give me the right to claim what Noah did.


I have no doubt that God still preforms miracles. I have serious doubt that men can.
1 Cor 13:8~~Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.



The books of Acts is describing the transition phase from Israel to the Church.

Israel was always looking for SIGNS and WONDERS to see if things were true. The Church lives by faith/doctrine/His word and the unseen.

1 Cor 1:22~~New International Version
Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,

So, the book of Acts is God giving what the Jew DEMANDED........signs and wonders. And when the Jew/Israel ultimately forsook Him, He turned His attention to the Church.........Hence, Paul and His ministry is set forth at the end of Acts.

2 Cor 5:7~~New International Version
For we live by faith, not by sight.

Edited

So again it would be the context of the signs and wonders. And I would venture to say that no longer are they signs. The signs aspect is fulfilled, but the wonder aspect is not.
Edited

 

[1Genesis]

But I can use scripture to prove my experience, I am experiencing the book of acts and 1 corinthians, as I have posted ad nausium on this thread. Also please mention one gift of the spirit that is not miraculous. Love never fails but prophecies will fail: I Corinthians 13:8-12, but if tongues ceased permanently, then other gifts of the Spirit should also cease. And they haven't. I have received word of knowledge regarding someone that I didn't know. When I was on a youth crisis hotline I got a call from someone I could not hear, all I heard was breathing. And God told me that this was a girl who had been raped. She said, "How did you know?" I said God told me. This was the word of knowledge. I also have had discernment of spirits before, another gift. I was walking down a hill at night with a bible college buddy, and we were praying over the city. At the bottom of the hill was a fortune teller, and we knew instantly that it was demonic. But while we were praying aloud, he folded up his table and literally ran away from us. He must have seen the angels around us. Prayer is powerful.



did you not read my whole last post where I post first hand observations of miracles. If the Bible has miracles, and I have experienced them, and I know people who have experienced them. And you haven't. Who is following the Bible more accurately?

If I might interject this brother? Ours is a relationship with our Lord and Savior isn't it? Are we to debate with any one else what that is for us personally? Especially if someone we encounter in the church of our Father has not had our same experiences? All is as Father wills isn't it?
In other phraseology, we don't have to prove we're in relationship to the satisfaction of others who have their own relationship with our precious Lord. Do we?

 

[godsquadgeek]

If I might interject this brother? Ours is a relationship with our Lord and Savior isn't it? Are we to debate with any one else what that is for us personally? Especially if someone we encounter in the church of our Father has not had our same experiences? All is as Father wills isn't it?
In other phraseology, we don't have to prove we're in relationship to the satisfaction of others who have their own relationship with our precious Lord. Do we?

Well it is possible God can use me or others to show that there is more to Christianity than dry theology, there is real power and miracles. Acts 1:8 shows the power of the Holy Spirit not just within, but upon someone. A baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I said this:
"The Bible clearly notes that some gifts will cease. Not all. And for obvious reasons."

I didn't "allow" anything. I posted the Scripture that says so in 1 Cor 13:8 - Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

Are you suggesting that prophecies will not cease? Or that tongues will not be stilled? Or that knowledge will pass away?

Please advise.


Please don't conclude that I even hinted at such rubbish.


I've never challenged any of your miracles. Thats between you and God. He knows all. What I'm pointing out is that 1 Cor 13:8 specifically mentions spiritual gifts that will go away, which you seem to want to deny.


Unless these medical journals can be cited, and I mean issue # and year along with the name of the journal, there is no reason to just accept anyone's word for it. If it was documented, let's see it.

no I don't deny gifts will cease, just not while the church is here. While evangelism is still active.

 

[1Genesis]

Well it is possible God can use me or others to show that there is more to Christianity than dry theology, there is real power and miracles.

The highlighted part is what I want to respond to.
Yes, there are. Absolutely. To say otherwise would be unwise wouldn't it? Because it would not be in keeping with what Father has told us of himself. He can do all things. For us to see that we have to get out of the way, stop thinking of limits to our Fathers power, and trust that.

Psalm 37:4-5 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

 

[JohnDB]

Closed for review and cleaning